Resurrection during the thousand year reign?

[John Houston]

I am laughing at your reasoning. What is being read into what I said? If what Paul said about "all things", would that mean the things, the same as the former things upon earth which will be done away with? Wow, how can a sensible person miss this? When Jesus hand back the Kingdom reins, would not it be finish, would not AT THAT MOMENT death be swallowed up? Before Adam rebelled, wasn't death just an idea? The same is true in what Paul is saying. Until Satan is released, until we are retested as perfect humans, under the same conditions as Adam and Eve then we will prove ourselves, then we will set aside those for destruction with Satan. You are twisted in your thinking your reasoning with scripture. That is your right. Ones like you feed off of debate from ones like me, but even Jesus walked away. So am I. 

[Shiwiii]

49 minutes ago, John Houston said:

I am laughing at your reasoning. What is being read into what I said? If what Paul said about "all things", would that mean the things, the same as the former things upon earth which will be done away with? 

I will show you exactly what you said and how you are reading into the scripture something that isn't there: 

 

21 hours ago, John Houston said:

Shiwii, yet verse 28, of Paul's word state that when Jesus finished his reign, he will subject himself back to his Father, as he was in the beginning as it was before Adam sinned.

again in verse 28 you seem to believe this takes place prior to the eradication of death, satan and hades.

Here is YOUR words:

On 6/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, John Houston said:

That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth.

Do you see here where you believe that Satan is still around? last sentence you wrote. 

What part of Satan still being around is everything subjected to Jesus? Its not. You need to go back and think this one through again, or clarify your position better. 

 

55 minutes ago, John Houston said:

Wow, how can a sensible person miss this? When Jesus hand back the Kingdom reins, would not it be finish, would not AT THAT MOMENT death be swallowed up?

yes, however your timeline does not fit the timeline given in Revelation 20. It is only when ALL THINGS are then subject to Jesus does this happen and that is not until Satan, hades and death have been cast away (Rev 20:14), then the kingdom is handed back over. 

 

58 minutes ago, John Houston said:

You are twisted in your thinking your reasoning with scripture.

I am taking scripture as it is and basing my point upon it. You however still fail in providing scripture to support a resurrection DURING the 1000 year reign. 

1 hour ago, John Houston said:

Ones like you feed off of debate from ones like me, but even Jesus walked away. So am I. 

This is your get out of jail free card, so you can run away from what scripture says, not me. I'm ok with that, seen it many many times. 

[HollyW]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:50 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

So basically, Glenn, it looks like you are arguing that the phrase 'came to life' has a different meaning depending on the group. 

One group is resurrected to perfection.

The other group is resurrected to imperfection ... until they've 'achieved' sin-free perfection at the end of the 1000 years.

Where is the scriptural evidence that one group has to 'achieve' perfection during the 1000 years?

If one group is resurrected perfect, why can it not be that the other group is resurrected perfect but at the end of the 1000 years, in harmony with the timing contained in v. 5's parenthesis? 

 

Hi Ann,

Good point and good question.  I always wondered why "come to life" was interpreted so differently by the WTS in this passage..  As you pointed  out, in one instance they say "come to life" means one thing, and in the very next sentence "come to life" means something else.  And actually in the second instance they have it not meaning "resurrected" at all, but more like "self-improvement" (i.e. improving oneself thru study of WT publications until able to meet God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually---and can thereafter stand before God and continue to live based on ones own merit......continuing to live for as long as they don't sin and get annihilated in the lake of fire.)

[HollyW]

On 6/19/2016 at 6:05 PM, Glenn Leider said:

(Revelation 20:1-7) "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison."

=====================================================================

The key to understanding when the earthly resurrection takes place is in the clause "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)" at the start of verse 5. Since verse 4 states that the ones with "thrones... came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years," these ones who "came to life" means they were resurrected as perfect beings.

It would do no good for them to have NOTHING over which to rule as kings, it would have to be over the "great crowd... who come out of the great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9,13,14), as well as those not of "the first resurrection" of heavenly ones, but of the general resurrection. That all of these could be called "the rest of the dead" harmonizes with Ephesians 2:1: "Furthermore, God made you alive, though your were dead in your trespasses and sins." At the end of the 1,000 years, these achieve perfection, being completely free from sin, and so "come to life" at this point.

The foregoing shows that the general resurrection would have to take place during the 1,000 years, for those resurrected to "come to life" at the end of the 1,000 years.

Hi Glenn,

I'm glad you posted the passage there in Revelation 20 because it shows the two occurrences of "come/came to life", one following the other in adjacent posts. (I hope there's spell check here.

Why is the second "come to life" called a resurrection?  Do you view those on earth as being dead until the end of the 1,000 years?

 

 

[HollyW]

On 6/20/2016 at 7:00 PM, Melinda Mills said:

Those in the general resurrection as well as Armageddon survivors who are obedient during the 1000 years will come to life toward the end of the thousand years as the priestly services of Jesus and the 144,000 priest-kings will be applied to them.  They will be gradually healed of their imperfection or restored to the perfection the human race had before Adam sinned (rehabilitation).  It doesn't mean they are now being resurrected (out of the grave)  at the end of the 1000-year reign. It means they have been rehabilitated for that period through the priestly services of the King and his associates and they have now reached the state of perfection.  Just as Adam faced the test in the garden of Eden as a perfect person,  they will now face the final test and Satan will be let out of the abyss to do so. Those who submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, unlike Adam, will be granted eternal life.  See excerpt below.

*** re chap. 40 p. 290 Crushing the Serpent’s Head ***The Rest of the Dead

^{14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, “(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.}

^{15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!}

Hi Melinda,

So, when Abraham is resurrected during the 1,000 years, will he be considered righteous, or will he be considered dead until the end of the 1,000 years?

[HollyW]

On 6/21/2016 at 11:38 AM, Melinda Mills said:

 

Melinda, you say that the ones in the first resurrection won't be subject to death.  What about those in the resurrection when the 1,000 years have ended?  After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for those folks to sin and die?

[HollyW]

On 6/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, John Houston said:

Shiwiii, how do you understand Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:23-28? There Paul spoke of those being brought back during "his presence". When he hands over the kingdom back to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 yrs, then all would be perfect, death will be swallowed up. All will have been raised from the grave. So how is it the way you reason does not jibe with what Paul is saying here in scripture? We all know that during Christ reign HIS VOICE, will call those from the grave, not his Father's correct? That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth. That is what scripture teaches. That is what you read from scripture, correct? The Bible is united in thought on this matter.

Hi John,

Are you saying the resurrection during "his presence" is the same one that takes place during the 1,000 year reign?

[Melinda Mills]

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

Melinda, you say that the ones in the first resurrection won't be subject to death.  What about those in the resurrection when the 1,000 years have ended?  After the final test at the end of the Millennium, will it be possible for those folks to sin and die?

Short Answer

The second death will also be kept on the books for the possibility that someone in the future may decide to get 'ideas' about rebelling against God's sovereignty. However, after the final test that is highly unlikely. But God is always prepared. Nahum 1:9 says "Distress will not rise up a second time". All those who pass the final test will have proved their love for Jehovah and his sovereignty.

Embellished answer

Provided you understand that will happen at the final test.

Some will sin willfully like Adam and Eve, joining with Satan.  Adamic death will be cast into the lake of fire which means it will be done away with.  These willfully wicked ones will not be dying because of sickness or imperfection (Adamic death). They will be executed by Jehovah's Son. Their destruction is called the second death just like that of Satan and his demons. Rev 20: 7-10.  (Lake of fire and second death means the same thing - eternal cutting off)

(Revelation 20:7-10) Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, ⁸ and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. ¹⁰ And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In the case of the angels in heaven the majority are still serving God faithfully despite what the angel that is now called Satan (and the others spirit creatures who joined him) did. They are living forever but they do not have immortality. Humans will be able to live forever once they continue being obedient.  Don't forget that Adam chose to disobey and ignore Jehovah's sovereignty while he was perfect. Likewise some who are rehabilitated to perfection will still fall away like Adam back then. After the 1000 years some will chose to do the same.  However, the ones who pass the final test will be written in the book of life. And we believe these will be the majority as they will have witnessed God's superabundant love during the 1000-year reign and will be loyal to Him and his Son.

Those resurrected and being rehabilitated will be judged by the things written in the scrolls - not what they did before they died.

So even though righteous people like Abraham, Job, David, etc., will be resurrected during the 1000-year reign, they will have to brought to perfection.- even though the text says theirs will be a resurrection to life.

(John 5:25-30) ²⁵ “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. ²⁶ For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. ²⁷ And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. ²⁸ Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice ²⁹ and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. ³⁰ I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

(Revelation 20:12-15) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. ¹³ And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. ¹⁴ And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. ¹⁵ Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

So for obedient people like Abraham their resurrection will prove to be a resurrection of life, once they continue their obedient course.  For some unrighteous resurrected ones their being given a chance to learn righteousness will result in their not benefiting, as they will either do things that will stop them from being perfected  (Isaiah 65:20 and Isaiah 26:10) ) or they will be perfected but then do like Adam and Eve. They will reject Jehovah after being perfected humans. Thus their resurrection will prove to be a resurrection of judgement.

(Isaiah 26:10) Even if the wicked is shown favor, He will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.

(Isaiah 65:20) “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days, Nor an old man who fails to live out his days. For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy, And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.

[Shiwiii]

7 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

 

So even though righteous people like Abraham, Job, David, etc., will be resurrected during the 1000-year reign, they will have to brought to perfection.- even though the text says theirs will be a resurrection to life.

Can you provide scripture to back up this claim of a resurrection during the thousand year reign?  

[John Houston]

HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

[HollyW]

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Short Answer

The second death will also be kept on the books for the possibility that someone in the future may decide to get 'ideas' about rebelling against God's sovereignty. However, after the final test that is highly unlikely. But God is always prepared. Nahum 1:9 says "Distress will not rise up a second time". All those who pass the final test will have proved their love for Jehovah and his sovereignty.

Thanks for your answer, Melinda.  I find it at odds with the Bible though:

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

It says "death shall be no more".

There's also these scriptures:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

But thanks for your reply anyway.

 

Holly

 

 

[HollyW]

 

Quote

Quoting John Houston's post:

HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

===============================================================

Thanks, John, for that explanation.  This resurrection you describe as being during Jesus' presence is the one in the following passage, isn't it?

1 Thessalonians 4:16:17  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

And you describe it as taking place over quite a long period of time, rather than as the short period of time the Bible shows it to be.

So....how do you explain that discrepancy?

 

Holly