Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[TrueTomHarley]

In the unlikely event the GB asks me to join them, I am going to decline.

[TrueTomHarley]

22 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

JWs have a panel of elders who then report to the Service Committee and fill out forms and tell other elders, COs, wives, etc.

 

 

Back in the day before Brother Libraria threw me off the BOE for selling my books during congregation meetings, this did occasionally happen. My wife never knew nothing, as was the pattern, but there was one wife who sometimes knew more than I did. She eventually stopped prying for information when her husband died.  I suspect the continual elder training schools squeezed that leakiness trait right out of whoever was doing it because I, who know a lot, have not heard of that problem in 20 years. 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:52 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

The point of reporting is to prevent further abuse to that particular child or other children by that individual perpetrator, to call the abuser to account, to penalize him/her, and for him/her to be publicly registered to alert the community to the potential danger to other children.

Almost everyone on the public sex offender register is harmless or of minimal risk. From the first book:

" Most people were quite naïve when the epidemic suddenly burst upon the scene – unheard of one day, Public Enemy #1 the next. Determined to leave no stone unturned rooting out pedophiles, the god of the sex offender registry has arisen in the United States. Unfortunately, he is another idiot. The nature of his game changes from state to state. The name you spot on the sex offender registry that you assume is that of a child rapist is really just the adult who, as a teen, texted half-dressed photos of herself to schoolmates. Or he is the fellow who, as a teen, had sex with his underage girlfriend. Or she is the dope who streaked naked across the football field. Or he is the drunken clod who peed in public. Or he is even the character who put his hand on a child’s rear end – not good, but perhaps not worthy of a sex offender registry where he will water down efforts to track violent predators; historically he has been controlled by parents alerting children to let no one touch them inappropriately, not even Uncle Feely (This is the topic of another ‘Caleb and Sophia’ video - everyone should have the tools to safeguard children that Jehovah’s Witnesses have; Caleb and Sophia learn to say No! and then tell a parent) - or he perhaps really is the serial child molester, but probably not – that scoundrel is hidden in a sex offender list so long that it is worthless to law enforcement"

The source for much of the above is a 2009 Economist, April issue, easily searchable. I've nothing against the world's efforts to combat pedophilia - how could one oppose that? But they screw up everything they touch and I am unwilling to hail them as the Grand Panacea.

(As an aside, it is annoying when one is asked 'the reason for edit.' What do they think it is? It's because you screwed it up the first time. When I edit my book for typos or whatever, Smashwords does not ask me the reason for my edit.)

[Witness]

On 3/5/2017 at 4:02 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

(sorry, Eoin. I admit, I'm not being overnice here. But we are dealing with some who HATE God's organization, which organization says it's not a great idea to be trading words with them in the first place, and this thread is demonstrating why. I will allow, though, that loyal ones have made some excellent points, perhaps spurred on in effort to shut up the scoundrels, and that your input has been among the most valuable of all.

Your choice of words are enlightening.  It is “God’s organization” that you say individuals like myself HATE.  Since you didn’t specify it is God that is hated, you must realize one can love God and hate a corporation, as well as not hate the people within the corporation.  Unless, you are combining the two – God and an organization, which is idolatry.  Isa 46:5; 42:8

 But, for following such scriptures, one can still be called an apostate by the organization.  Ironic, isn’t it?  You are not allowed to speak to an individual who loves God but refuses to acknowledge an idol.

 

16 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

What does "Caesar" consider the Org's elders to be?

The elder body is a de facto clergy. 
“Appointed elders represent the royal priesthood”  w02 8/1 pp. 9-14

The true priesthood was “ordained” by God through an anointing.  Since they know this, do they only act at liberty as a “clergy”, but in word, refuse to admit it?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Appointed elders represent the royal priesthood

Interesting point. Might be appropriate for a separate discussion. It's a curious doctrine. Here's the teaching with a little more context.

*** w02 8/1 pp. 13-14 pars. 16-22 Loyally Submit to Godly Authority ***
Finally, Jehovah replaced the Levitical priesthood with a very different one—a royal priesthood. That royal priesthood continues down to this day.
17 Who make up this royal priesthood today? The apostle Peter answers that question in his first inspired letter. To anointed members of the body of Christ, Peter wrote: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9) From these words it is clear that, as a group, the anointed footstep followers of Jesus make up this “royal priesthood,” which Peter also called “a holy nation.” They constitute the channel that Jehovah uses to provide his people with instruction and spiritual direction.—Matthew 24:45-47.
18 Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. (Hebrews 13:7, 17) How can that be?
19 These older men meet the requirements that are set out in God’s Word, which is a product of God’s spirit. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9) Hence, their appointment can be said to be by holy spirit. (Acts 20:28) The older men, or elders, must be thoroughly familiar with God’s Word. Like the Supreme Judge who appointed them, the elders also must hate anything that resembles partiality in judgment.—Deuteronomy 10:17, 18.
20 Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders! Their record of faithful service, often over many decades, inspires our trust. They faithfully prepare for and conduct congregation meetings, work side by side with us in preaching the “good news of the Kingdom,” and provide Scriptural advice when we need it. (Matthew 24:14; Hebrews 10:23, 25; 1 Peter 5:2) They visit us when we are sick and comfort us when we mourn. They loyally and unselfishly support Kingdom interests. Jehovah’s spirit is upon them; they have his approval.—Galatians 5:22, 23.
21 Of course, the older men are not perfect. Mindful of their limitations, they do not try to lord it over the flock, “God’s inheritance.” Rather, they consider themselves ‘fellow workers for the joy of their brothers.’ (1 Peter 5:3; 2 Corinthians 1:24) Humble, hardworking elders love Jehovah, and they know that the closer they come to imitating him, the more good they will be able to do in the congregation. With this in mind, they constantly strive to cultivate such godly qualities as love, compassion, and patience.
22 How happy we are to have Jehovah as our invisible Ruler, Jesus Christ as our High Priest, members of the anointed royal priesthood as our teachers, and faithful Christian older men as our counselors! Although no organization directed by humans can be perfect, we are delighted to be able to serve God in the company of faithful fellow believers, who gladly submit to godly authority!

 

[Ann O'Maly]

18 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

19 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

So God's Org emphatically denies its elders are clergy while Caesar's law considers the Org's elders to be clergy. Who to believe, hey?

What does "Caesar" consider the Org's elders to be?

Tweet him and find out?

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Almost everyone on the public sex offender register is harmless or of minimal risk.

Now you're just trolling me.

Not

going 

to

take

the

bait.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Tweet him and find out?

Can't get any agreement.

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

Now you're just trolling me.

Not

going 

to

take

the

bait.�

What do you mean, "not going to take the bait?" Are you nuts? 

The paragraph speaks for itself. Granted, it is exaggerated the way I am wont to do, but it is not untrue. (it is called hyperbole when Jesus does it in Luke) It is backed by Economist Magazine. The GB does not author Economist Magazine.

There's more on the absurdity of your single issue focus one one issue and one issue alone:

"Working himself into a lather, he [the god of the sex offender registry] passes a law in Arizona (2016) criminalizing contact with the private areas of any child under 15 regardless of intent. That makes criminals of parents changing diapers, aghast parents point out, but he doesn’t care. No “sane or reasonable prosecutor” is going to misuse the law that way, he says. Besides, if one did, you’d have your day in court to point out your lack of ill intent; it would be a fine defense. It is reassuring to know that the sane and reasonable prosecutors will leave you alone, but what about the insane and unreasonable ones? What about the political hacks or young firecrackers keen to show they are tough on pedophilia? What about the prosecutor who knows the charge is ridiculous, but wants to string it along anyway as a bargaining chip for an unrelated crime? Sometimes you think the god of registries is helping the god of the adversarial judicial system so that the latter’s devotees do not suffer unemployment. “Just try repealing the law,” the god of registries taunts, “just try it, and I’ll tell the voters that you love pedophiles.”

 

This, too, is real and easily searchable onliine. Arizona is a real place. It is in the USA. It is in the southwestern portion of the USA.. 

 

 

The paragraph shows how inept authorities are in leaving no stone unturned. But don't search it, Ann. Be very smart. 

 

Don't

take

the

bait!

Many things are proven by ignoring evidence to the contrary.

[Ann O'Maly]

@TrueTomHarley

1. A search for your (non-journalistic) quote bounced back to you as the source.

2. You haven't given a specific reference to your alleged source so how is one supposed to verify the information? April 2009 edition? Which article? Link?

3. We have been discussing the reporting of child abuse and protecting an abused child and other children from further harm, rather than all the varieties of sex offenders that end up on registers.

[TrueTomHarley]

C'mon, Ann! I've got to do everything for you? I found it in two seconds: http://www.economist.com/node/14165460

There are two or three articles on the same subject. Please don't demand I provide links to each one. The overall point is that the sex offender list is of little value. Reasons vary. 1) it is made a vehicle for public shaming and revenge by persons who don't realize that that negates its value as a enforcement tool because too many  people are on it. 

2) Politicians absolutely love the sex offender list because there is no finer way to tell the voters they are 'tough on pedophiles' 3) Assinine, ineffective, or even hurtful (to innocuous persons on the list) provisions cannot be repealed because as soon as that is proposed someone with vested interests will misrepresent it as wanting to hurt kids. The vested interests often are the result of turf wars - every expert wanting to expand the program as much as possible so as to ensure job security.

Don't misunderstand, Ann. Fighting child abuse is a fine thing. Nobody says otherwise. But your people are terrible at it.

Yes, the paragraph quoted bounced back to me because it is from my book, Tom Irregardless and Me, which the Librarian is too mean to let me talk about much. What a battleaxe! I never said the paragraph was the Economist. I said the facts backing it are from the Economist. The paragraph about Arizona is from my book, too. I'm not supplying a link. You do it. For, again, Arizona is a real place. It is in a real country. (The USA) And they are really nuts over there, doing nutty things, because they are frothing mad over a problem they have not been able to solve.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I HAVE REVIEWED THE LAST FOUR PAGES OF INCREDIBLY DISGUSTING LOGIC AND EXCUSES.

During World War II, England was almost conquered by the Nazi Luftwaffe in a long series of Air battles over England as waves of German aircraft continuously bombed London and other cities, and the outnumbered British RAF pilots knew as they rose into the sky to meet this barbarian horde, that being outnumbered, and out-gunned, and running out of planes and pilots ... barring unforeseen circumstances .. in less than an hour, they would BE DEAD! .. and their Nation soon destroyed.  This was called the "Battle of Britain".

Shot out of the sky, their bodies burned, crushed, shot or blown to small pieces. NOW!

Many of these men truly believed in Christ, to the limits of their understanding, and many were atheists.... but they sacrificed their lives, many knowing they would be FOREVER DEAD ... to fight for Justice, Truth, Fairness, that their extended Family would not become slaves of the Third Reich.

All this crap about "who is or is not clergy", and "what is the law on this side of the boundary" is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to people who love righteousness, and have the courage to FIGHT for it.

When the opinions, and culture of your friends turns you into a weasely lawyer looking for loopholes to escape censure, and you get into the mindset that just because the Governing Body cannot be fired, that they are the will of God  what you have is an eight sided Trinity ... an Octopus Pope.

Do you not REALIZE that rough men of violence, who swear, drink, and screw around, who are willing to put their lives on THE LINE ... and die for Justice .. compared to our craven abdication of our responsibility to the Brotherhood for disfellowshipping those who talk and cry out in anguish ... and hide their gross incompetency and craven greed for money and authority,  these men HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!

NOT US !

[TrueTomHarley]

Here is a possible scenario for the next meeting of the Australia Pedophile Commission:

Lead Commissioner: "Mr. Jackson, I hope that you people will straighten out and fly right, and cooperate more fully with what we are trying to do. I emphasize the word 'trying,' Mr. Jackson, because we are terrible at it and the overall track record of the world would be laughably bad were it not so tragic. But our hearts are in the right place.

"Nonetheless, Mr. Jackson, I am impressed by your humility, your distress at what clearly is a problem, and your overall demeanor. We have so many people strutting their stuff about here and you almost can't stand them. We appreciate your willingness to work with us and we hope we can further work with you along this line.

"You have pleaded with us, Mr. Jackson, to make our policies the same across all territories, for that would make your job so much easier. it is a reasonable request. Unfortunately, Mr. Jackson, we cannot comply, though we would like to, because we represent squabbling and disunited governing entities that cannot collectively tie its own shoe. You would think it would be a piece of cake to do what you request. Unfortunately, it is impossible. 

"And this is just Austraila. Don't get me going about international efforts to fight child sexual abuse. Why, Arauna has said in another thread that children in Africa are routinely raped every day without anyone to stand up for them. That's because there is no money over there, and consequently, no interest. But we do have a lot of money here.

"We have a request for you, Mr. Jackson. I know it's a bit irregular, but can you take this off our hands for us? I have looked into your organized nature and have concluded that you could do it. Aren't you the people who set up and take down your buildings of worship almost as easily as our people set up and take down Coleman tents? i know you do not have grandstanding politicians who will push and shove to do whatever will keep them in their jobs, and that you can focus on the real issues undistracted by personal agendas. I know you can separate the truly worrisome pedophiles from the run-of-the-mill ones, who appear to be almost everyone. I know too, that you care about poor people just as much as you care about well-off people. Listen, we just want to save our kids here, and we think that if we funneled all reports to you, you would be able to handle keeping a centralized list and handle its distribution.  I know it is not your main line, but surely you can devote a committee to it. Ten of your people are worth 10,000 of ours because your people know how to work together and our people do not. Actually, the more people we add to our efforts, the more chaotic the overall picture gets.

"I apologize, Mr. Jackson, for not recognizing your true nature sooner. Every day in the Courthouse, the instant the janitor unlocks the door, Witness and Ann race in to save 100 seats for their friends, placing WatchtowerSucks Magazines on each one, then leaving a six inch high pile of documents upon each of our desks - what is it with those people? They had us confused for a while. I've never seen people smile so broadly as they whenever a point is made not in your favor."

Maybe it will go down that way. Do you think?

*****JTR: PERHAPS THERE IS A REASON YOU CANNOT USE FONTS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE CIVILIZED WORLD!!!  IF SO, I WILL IMMEDIATELY APOLOGISE!!!! ***********.

The standards aren't unreachably high here, JTR. Your points have as much right to be here as anybody's, apparantly. Just be less bombastic, if you can. And whatever you do, don't try to sell any books.