Jump to content

Shiwiii

What does not passing the collection plate really mean anyway?

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Shiwiii -
Shiwiii -
198
4365

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

d7b3d39eff7a5327764900e44c3cf777?s=580

I thought that the wt did't ask for money? Or is it literally about a plate being passed? 

I noticed that in the past few years, lots and lots of property has been sold in Brooklyn and surrounding areas as well as some kh's. Why this sudden grab for money? In addition to this, we can see in the screen shot above that credit cards are now an option? Really? Whatever happend to what Russell said way back when? Here is a quote from next weeks wt study that quotes yesteryear: 

 

chapter 18 of "God's Kingdom Rules."

 

“It Will Never Beg nor Petition Men for Support”

7 Brother Russell and his associates refused to imitate the money-raising schemes so common in the churches of Christendom.  In the second issue of the Watch Tower, under the heading “Do You Want ‘Zion’s Watch Tower’?” Russell stated: “‘Zion’s Watch Tower’ has, we believe, JEHOVAH for its backer, and while this is the case it will never beg nor petition men for support. When He.........fails to provide necessary funds, we will understand it to be time to suspend the publication.” Over 130 years later, The Watchtower and the organization that publishes it are still going strong! 

8 Jehovah’s people do not beg for money. They do not pass collection plates or send out letters of solicitation. 

 

This also reminds me of the relatively recent change in mortgages on hk's. No longer are there mortgages on some property's (kh's), they were paid off by the wt, but they are still required to continue to pay the same amount as they did before, but now pay it to the wt for an indefinite amount of time. Where do they get these funds to pay the "fake" mortgages? regular donations from the locals. 

 

Lastly, what is the rewards program listed in the screen shot above? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a recent Watchtower study edition on this very topic.  “The Generous Person Will Be Blessed”  11/2017, pp. 18,19

Quote:  "We can be assured that “the generous person will be blessed.” Moreover, when we give our valuable things (monetary valuables, of course) to Jehovah, we honor him.

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
."

Not according to Jesus, or his apostles.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”  Matt 19:21

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."  Matt 6:24

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Tim 6:10

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."  1 Tim 6:17-19

Obviously, the GB has it all wrong.  

"Whoever loves money never has enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with their income.This too is meaningless."  Eccl 5:10

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/15/2017 at 2:15 PM, Shiwiii said:

  Lastly, what is the rewards program listed in the screen shot above? 

The rewards program goes like this, as an example ...

The JW singer Prince (PBUH) contributed about $38 thousand dollars a month to his local Kingdom Hall.  Most of this was sent to Brooklyn, which was then the JW Headquarters. 

In exchange, he lived a lifestyle, and had associates both personal and professional that you and I would be disfellowshipped for.

When he died of drug overdose, you could almost hear the salivating over his estate across State lines.

You have heard that after you die, you have to pay for your sins?

Down here on Earth there is an unofficial "good ol' boys" price list.

And don't even get me STARTED about the Australian JW Michael Jackson Day Care Centers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/15/2017 at 2:15 PM, Shiwiii said:

I thought that the wt did't ask for money? Or is it literally about a plate being passed? 

I noticed that in the past few years, lots and lots of property has been sold in Brooklyn and surrounding areas as well as some kh's. Why this sudden grab for money? In addition to this, we can see in the screen shot above that credit cards are now an option? Really? Whatever happend to what Russell said way back when? Here is a quote from next weeks wt study that quotes yesteryear:

It is a sin to tell persons who would like to donate to their cause of choice how to do it?

In recent weeks I have been helping a relative who has fallen on hard times. She is unable to work full time and what work she does is at $9.00 per hour. To my astonishment I find hers is a tithing church - is yours one of those, Shiwiii? - and she gives 10% to her income to it. It is given in a way so it can be kept track of - in pledge envelopes in the person's name.

I do not know that it is required. She might be able to work out a deal with them, but the point is she would have to. They did help her out a bit with their food kitchen for a time, but with 10% tithing, I'm sure they have made it back several times over.

My point is that at the Kingdom Hall, I can give 50% of my income or nothing at all. Nobody knows. I have to go back to a contribution box at the back of the auditorium to donate. No one knows if I do or not. Nobody approaches me. These is no collection taken, certainly no pledge envelopes, and unless I choose to use checks (or credit card at assemblies), it is completely anonymous. Even if I do use such things, it is only the account servant who notices.

The Witness are the least donation conscious of any religion out there. Vent your indignation, @Shiwiii, on the 10% tithe churches, of which there are many, and after that, on the ones that track donations through pledge envelopes, of which there are many more, and after that, on the ones that use peer pressure public pass the plate collections, which constitutes just about everyone else.

Way back in the day, Merrill used to tell me about his old church, where music accompanied the collection, and attendants shook the plates at the end of long poles in beat with the music. Put some coins in and the congregation would hear a CHINK! CHINK! CHINK! It's quiet money they wanted.

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The JW singer Prince ... lived a lifestyle, and had associates both personal and professional that you and I would be disfellowshipped for.

If a loony-bin liar carries on about the GB, it is 'one of those things.' Everyone knows his pathetic hatred.

But if he starts lying about Prince, MY PRINCE, THEN he has crossed a line of decency. Before he slanders the man, he should list each transgression he thinks he 'got away with' accompanied by proof and um - to quote his constant refrain - "FACTS!! DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE?! " without which rants are worth (to use his favorite words)

        "ZIP - ZERO - NADA"

I think he will not find any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is a sin to tell persons who would like to donate to their cause of choice how to do it?

nope. Is it a sin to exchange a mortgage(one paid to a bank for a loan) that expires in x number of years to one that is never ending (but paid to the wt), thus fleecing the flock? 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I can give 50% of my income or nothing at all. Nobody knows.

This is how it should be. It all boils down to you and God, not your payment to men. God doesn't need our money. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Vent your indignation, @Shiwiii, on the 10% tithe churches, of which there are many, and after that, on the ones that track donations through pledge envelopes, of which there are many more, and after that, on the ones that use peer pressure public pass the plate collections, which constitutes just about everyone else.

I have NEVER, EVER seen this. I have been to plenty of Church's worldwide (Baptist, Protestant, non Denominational, Lutheran, Catholic, and the list goes on)  and have not come across this even once. If you have, then I suggest you reach out to them and ask them why. I think you may be just regurgitating the propaganda spread by the wt and not really ever experienced this either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

f a loony-bin liar carries on about the GB, it is 'one of those things.' Everyone knows his pathetic hatred.

But if he starts lying about Prince, MY PRINCE, THEN he has crossed a line of decency. Before he slanders the man, he should list each transgression he thinks he 'got away with' accompanied by proof and um - to quote his constant refrain - "FACTS!! DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE?! " without which rants are worth (to use his favorite words)

        "ZIP - ZERO - NADA"

I think he will not find any.

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But if he starts lying about Prince, MY PRINCE, THEN he has crossed a line of decency. Before he slanders the man, he should list each transgression he thinks he 'got away with' accompanied by proof and um - to quote his constant refrain - "FACTS!! DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE?! " without which rants are worth (to use his favorite words)

        "ZIP - ZERO - NADA"

I think he will not find any.

TTH:

Just for your information .... everything I said about Prince is absolutely true .... to the extent it was such a serious charge that in order not to drop ANOTHER 1,000 pound weight, my last three paragraphs of that specific post concerning the same subject... money buys dispensation ... concerning Michael Jackson' s Organizational "Get out of Jail Free" card, I tried to lighten up combining fact with satire.

You, of course, have an open invitation to prove me a liar ... but you cannot focus on the issue actually being raised, and always take a canoe up a dirt path into Booger's Woods.

The last six times I challenged you to prove I was a liar with just ONE instance out of 7,000 or so posts, you choked, and were not able to do so.

Please ... disprove any statement I made about Prince.  OTHERWISE ... your credibility REMAINS at ...

"ZIP - ZERO - NADA"'

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The last six times I challenged you to prove I was a liar with just ONE instance out of 7,000 or so posts, you choked, and were not able to do so.

There was the statement you made that the sole purpose of the law was to serve for our happiness.

Not only is it incorrect, but it is an untruth that underlyies ALL of your incessant bellyaching. It's not about us.

You clearly think it is. At least, your comments clearly indicate you think it.

There is such a thing as the sanctification of God's name, you know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There was the statement you made that the sole purpose of the law was to serve for our happiness.

TTH:

I suspect that you, as usual, have misunderstood what I said.  Since I don't remember saying that ... the burden of proof is on you to quote what I actually did say.  So far ...your accusation has no basis of reference.

THEN we can BOTH see what is the REAL case.

Your credibility so far is zero, so I am not going to worry about it.

When you actually provide a quote to look at, I will look at it, and give you a fair and complete explanation, of what I meant by what I said ... if it was too abrupt for you.

Oh, and since AGAIN you avoided the issue being discussed ...

Please ... disprove any statement I made about Prince.  OTHERWISE ... your credibility REMAINS at ...

"ZIP - ZERO - NADA"'

again.

.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2017 at 5:56 PM, Shiwiii said:

I have NEVER, EVER seen this. I have been to plenty of Church's worldwide (Baptist, Protestant, non Denominational, Lutheran, Catholic, and the list goes on)  and have not come across this even once. If you have, then I suggest you reach out to them and ask them why. I think you may be just regurgitating the propaganda spread by the wt and not really ever experienced this either. 

You're joking! The remark seems almost too disingenuous to answer.

I was raised United Presbyterian. Our family received pledge envelopes to put in the collection plate at services. Put in the amount pledged. Like any charity, a pledge was used as the basis to try to secure a greater pledge. My non-churchgoing dad even had words with the pastor about it, since my mom did not work outside of the home, thus he was the one who ended up paying.

My sister still is Presbyterian, Reformed. She tithes 10%. It is what's done.

What seems more trusting in God to you - a contribution box in the back where people may or may not give anonymously, or a collection plate passed through the rows and everyone nearby will know just how much one puts in?

On 9/18/2017 at 5:56 PM, Shiwiii said:

If you have, then I suggest you reach out to them and ask them why.

I think you would have to be pretty obtuse to ask this question. I think I know why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/17/2017 at 10:39 PM, Witness said:

There's a recent Watchtower study edition on this very topic.  “The Generous Person Will Be Blessed”  11/2017, pp. 18,19

Quote:  "We can be assured that “the generous person will be blessed.” Moreover, when we give our valuable things (monetary valuables, of course) to Jehovah, we honor him.

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
."

Not according to Jesus, or his apostles.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”  Matt 19:21

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."  Matt 6:24

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Tim 6:10

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."  1 Tim 6:17-19

Obviously, the GB has it all wrong.  

"Whoever loves money never has enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with their income.This too is meaningless."  Eccl 5:10

 

 What you are talking about is not what the WT is talking about. Completely different topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2017 at 5:56 PM, Shiwiii said:

I have NEVER, EVER seen this

My step son is a Mormon and they tithe 10%

and here are links where you can read up about the topic of passing plates

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

The only reason why passing the plate might peter out in the future is because less and less people carry paper money and more will want to pay by card or check. Tithing no doubt will stay for some denominations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I was raised United Presbyterian.

Hmmmm.... the Muppet Fozzie Bear was a Presbyterian and he also was a comedian.

( you have to see the original circa 1980 "Muppet Movie" ...)

Dwight David Eisenhower was also a Presbyterian, after he became President of the USA, but he was raised  in a family of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Coincidence ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anna said:

What you are talking about is not what the WT is talking about. Completely different topic.

Look at that article again, and see the inset note at the bottom of the page. The whole article is to get your head nodding up and down, so when you get to WHY they chose that topic, your head will STILL be nodding up and down.

Like the man said to his wife when watching the televangelist on TV jumping around and telling them they had been healed of their tongue warts, then looking in the mirror ...  "Hees widte! .... Gebt de theckboogh !"

The Society has STILL not recovered from the 2015 "Red October Meltdown"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anna said:

Tithing no doubt will stay for some denominations.

Just a thought that "tithing" today can refer to any % of income as a contribution to a religious organisation and may no longer be compulsory. Also, many countries still distribute tax revenues to religious organisations.

I suppose exemption from VAT is another avenue,  as is the "covenanting" of donations which exempts from income tax  and enables government rebates. It all comes from the "communal pot".

 

    Hello guest!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Mostly during the mid-week meetings, my head also nods up and down continuously, as does my wife's.  Sometimes I will pat her on the opposite shoulder, or she will discreetly stick me with a ball point pen

Maybe there is a place for a frequent passing of a rattling plate in your neck of the woods. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There was the statement you made that the sole purpose of the law was to serve for our happiness.

TTH:

I suspect that you, as usual, have misunderstood what I said.  Since I don't remember saying that ... the burden of proof is on you to quote what I actually did say.  So far ...your accusation has no basis of reference.

 

It's nice not to remember what you have said. Not everyone has that luxury. From the thread Friends With Benefits:

 

TTH: "Many times you have challenged readers to point to even one thing you have said that is not true. I will take you up on your challenge now.

"You just said an untruth, and it is a big one. It is fundamental to everything else you say:

  On 8/7/2017 at 7:15 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The alternate explanation would have to be reasonable, show common sense, and the end result be merciful, and just ... and NOT HURT ANYONE ... which is the whole point ofALL Theocratic Law.

"It's not about us. Not primarily. Primarily, it is about the sanctification of God's name and the vindication of his purpose. 'Not hurting anyone,'  though a good provision, is not as good as keeping God's name on high and his purpose undeterred.

"Furthermore, though you have been very critical of the Governing Body, this understanding predates the Governing Body. It first emerged in Rutherford's day."

In response to my comment, you squealed that it was irrelevant because you had not just then issued a challenge to point out anything untrue you might have said. It is relevant now, as you have just done so.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Forum Statistics

    59,885
    Total Topics
    107,581
    Total Posts
  • Member Statistics

    16,078
    Total Members
    1,592
    Most Online
    Tumbleweed
    Newest Member
    Tumbleweed
    Joined




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.