The Holy Spirit

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Cos said:

you come to a passage which mentions the Holy Spirit,

Depends on the passage and context as to how I understand it. As you have cited Gen.1:2,  I read this as God's "spirit" or "active force", depending on the translation I am looking at. NWT 2013 has both as possibilities.

I can't remember when I first learned that the text literally translates as 'the wind of God', but Ellicott's Commentary speaks of it as "Divine operative energy" which I found quite appealing, and which is the most readily remembered description I have in my mind.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

why doesn’t the WT change all the passages where the Spirit is mentioned to “active force” as they do in Genesis 1:2?

This  question I can't answer specifically. I didn't make the translation and so am not privy to the thought process. Someone may have discussed this in detail somewhere, but it is not something I have come across yet.

I would think any rendering of a Bible expression is executed by a translator with a view to making the text understandable to the reader, so there will be an excercise of choice in selecting particular phrases. Your suggestion appears to be in line with that. 

Thanks for the translation information.

[Cos]

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Ellicott's Commentary speaks of it as "Divine operative energy" which I found quite appealing, and which is the most readily remembered description I have in my mind.

Gone fishing,

 

It is very misleading to quote three words out of context from Ellicott’s Commentary and then say you find them “appealing” but when put back in context I very much doubt that you really find what is meant “quite appealing”.

 

You had just told me that “passage and context” is something that determines your “understanding” (even though you are referring to biblical situations) but will quote from Ellicott and completely disregard the actual context. Why?

14 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I would think any rendering of a Bible expression is executed by a translator with a view to making the text understandable to the reader

I guess the Watchtower wants you to “understand” that the Holy Spirit is some sort of “power in action/active force” but not actually use those very words throughout their translation, even though that is what they say is meant; this all comes across as not being very transparent with the translation approach as it does not really convey the “thought” of what they claim is being expressed. <><

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, Cos said:

It is very misleading to quote three words out of context from Ellicott’s Commentary

Cos.

Thankyou for your reply.

With respect, the statement above is complete nonsense.

I can quote anything I like when I like especially as this material is public domain. I am not saying anything about Ellicott's teachings or beliefs, and neither do I appeal to him for authority regarding what I say. He used an excellent choice of words in my opinion, and that is what I acknowledge. Any ingenuous enquirer can look at the commentary to further their knowledge or interest in Ellicott, which is why the reference is included. And, if they choose, they can select or reject from it whatever they wish. I personally do not share all of Charles Ellicott's opinions, but I do acknowledge that he was both erudite and articulate in expressing them, not the least in the phrase that has captured my interest.

That addresses your second question also.

6 hours ago, Cos said:

I guess the Watchtower wants you to “understand” that the Holy Spirit is some sort of “power in action/active force”

No need to guess on that one. However, it might save you some frustration if you concentrate on the subject matter rather than waste effort in attacking  the Watchtower. You run the risk of engaging in a rather Quixotic quest. Let Gamaliel be your guide on that one. 

[Cos]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 3:28 PM, Gone Fishing said:

I can quote anything I like when I like especially as this material is public domain. I am not saying anything about Ellicott's teachings or beliefs

Gone fishing,

 

Of course you can quote whatever you want to quote; it’s just that the quote from Ellicott’s Commentary come on the heels of where you just said that “passage and context” determines your understanding, then that quote came across as though you were claiming that Ellicott was in some way endorsing the JW idea. So I thought, wow this guy says one thing and then does another, which I stated in my post.

 

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 3:28 PM, Gone Fishing said:

No need to guess on that one. However, it might save you some frustration if you concentrate on the subject matter rather than waste effort in attacking  the Watchtower.

The subject matter is related to how the Watchtower wants you to understand the Holy Spirit. They promote the idea of “power in action/active force” which JW’s adhere to even though, as we have seen, that idea in Scripture is not exegetically possible. <><

[Evacuated]

7 minutes ago, Cos said:

So I thought, wow this guy says one thing and then does another, which I stated in my post.

So let's hope you have corrected that misunderstanding now. 

 

7 minutes ago, Cos said:

how the Watchtower wants you to understand the Holy Spirit.

Forget this "what the Watchtower wants" litany please. 

I think we have established that we both have an understanding of what the holy spirit is and that this understanding differs.

If you want to present aspects of your understanding and the reasons for why it is so, that's fine with me. I am quite happy to credit you with control of your own mind on matters, if you are prepared to reciprocate. I cannot see a basis for discussion otherwise.

[Cos]

On ?10?/?16?/?2017 at 7:31 PM, Gone Fishing said:

So let's hope you have corrected that misunderstanding now. 

Gone fishing,

 

Please try not to be ambiguous when quoting, for some who might be completely naïve and unacquainted with Ellicott, could take what you quote as some sort of endorsement when clearly it is not. You don’t want to be guilty of having someone falsely believe something when it’s not the truth, do you?

 

On ?10?/?16?/?2017 at 7:31 PM, Gone Fishing said:

I think we have established that we both have an understanding of what the holy spirit is and that this understanding differs.

If you want to present aspects of your understanding and the reasons for why it is so, that's fine with me. I am quite happy to credit you with control of your own mind on matters, if you are prepared to reciprocate. I cannot see a basis for discussion otherwise.

I have given you some evidence already demonstrating  that the Holy Spirit is a Person which you just deny without giving a reason, so I’d like to ask on what basis do you arrive at your understanding, or more specifically, what backing do you have for your understanding that the Holy Spirit is “power in action/active force”? <><

[Evacuated]

Cos.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

You don’t want to be guilty of having someone falsely believe something when it’s not the truth, do you?

I am only concerned that I speak the truth as far as I can know it. I am not concerned about how others chose to misinterpret what I say. Ambiguity is a fact of life, and the genuine enquirer can always seek clarification.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

for some who might be completely naïve and unacquainted with Ellicott,

In that case, the quote would not have any value as an endorsement.

In any case, my use of Ellicott's expression serves as MY endorsement of HIS excellent choice of words.

3 hours ago, Cos said:

what backing do you have for your understanding that the Holy Spirit is “power in action/active force”?

It's operation in my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cos]

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

In any case, my use of Ellicott's expression serves as MY endorsement of HIS excellent choice of words.

Gone fishing,

 

To quote Ellicott’s commentary and say that you endorse his “excellent choice of words” shows that you somehow want to align his meaning with your own and that plainly is not the case.

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

the genuine enquirer can always seek clarification.

I will try to remember the next time you quote something to ask you if the authors’ meaning is the same as yours.

 

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It's operation in my life.

Surely there must be some biblical verification that supports your view that the “operation in [your] life” is an effect of what you call “power in action/active force” and not something else (1 Thess. 5:21). <><

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, Cos said:

somehow want to align his meaning

Not really. I can't be sure of Ellicott's meaning as he is long dead. Also, he may have made many other attempts to express his views on the same subject. 

However, his choice of words on this occasion almost perfectly captures the thought for me: God's Holy Spirit is: "Divine operative energy".  (NB. only the phrase within inverted commas is from Ellicott).

3 hours ago, Cos said:

and not something else

What else?

[Cos]

17 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I can't be sure of Ellicott's meaning as he is long dead.

Gone fishing

 

You are mistaken; we can be “sure”, from the context, exactly what Ellicott meant.

 

17 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

What else?

I don’t know what you accredit as “operation in [your] life” to mean, but what I do know is that you need biblical verification for that claim to be justifiable. <><

[Evacuated]

7 hours ago, Cos said:

You are mistaken; we can be “sure”, from the context, exactly what Ellicott meant.

This will only ever be opinion. We may be sure of our opinions, we may share the same opinion, we might even change our opinions. But we cannot change the fact that the writings of dead men will only ever be open to interpretation, as those men are not alive to verify our understanding of their words.

7 hours ago, Cos said:

I don’t know what you accredit as “operation in [your] life”

In connection with the operation of God's spirit in my life, I would cite the words of the apostle Paul who stated in his letter to the Phillipians: 

2:13: "For the one at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, is God.

4:13: "I am able to do all things by the one who strengthens me."

and in his letter to the Galatians:

5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things there is no law."

[TrueTomHarley]

6 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

But we cannot change the fact that the writings of dead men will only ever be open to interpretation, as those men are not alive to verify our understanding of their words.

This reminds me of a passage in 'Up the Down Staircase' in which a student was given a failing grade for wrongly interpreting a poem. He protested. The grade stood. It stood even when the student brought the poet himself to school and the poet said 'yes'- that's exactly what he meant. 

The only satisfaction he received was to see school policy changed. From that point on, only dead poets were used in connection with assignments.