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Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

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13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yesterday in service there was one of those pissy little yappy dogs nipping at my pant leg. I was annoyed with its strength.

You overestimate yourself, John.

From you I take that as a compliment.

However I don't overestimate God and Jesus Christ. They will sort it all out in their own time. 

Have a good day Tom. :) 

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On 2/6/2019 at 8:37 AM, FelixCA said:

I imagine you have dismissed the OPED I submitted, with how many in charge would be frank and open with their responses.

I can't tell for sure who you are talking to here. You addressed the post with the Op-Ed to @TrueTomHarley, but this current post that I'm quoting from directly responds to some points that I made. So if it's all the same to you, I'll try to address some of the points you made with reference to the Op-Ed especially.

On 2/5/2019 at 8:50 AM, FelixCA said:

Also, with this illustration, it should be able to give more clarity to other issues.

It could only add clarity if it were made clear what you had presented.

The July 8 1931 Golden Age referred to in the Op-Ed had already made clear that no Bible Student/JW should be listening to the Frank & Ernest radio program that had previously been on WBBR and which was now being broadcast by Dawn Bible Students in 1931. The president of the Dawn Bible Students was Norman Woodworth, and the editor of the Golden Age was Clayton Woodworth.

This bit of confusion had led some to need more clarity, as the name "Jehovah's witnesses" was not yet so well known, and both groups were still called Bible Students, and both continued to sell Millennial Dawn books, and both had a famous "Brother Woodworth" as an editor. The Dawn Bible Students published a brochure called "Bible Students Radio Echo." Brother Norman Woodworth was its editor, not the Watch Tower's Golden Age editor, Clayton Woodworth.

The July 8 1931 Golden Age (Clayton Woodworth) published a lengthy article about this "Bible Students Radio Echo:"

. . . He will to accomplish His purposes; and we
have full confidence that the Watch Tower Bible
& Tract Society is the one and only instrumentality
which the Lord is using to proclaim the
kingdom of God in the earth at this time.
As respects the dialogues of "Frank and
Ernest", it is a matter of record that these
dialogues were broadcast for several years from
Radio Station WBBR, the WATCHTOWER; and
it is as apparent that during those years "Frank
and Ernest" were greatly used and highly
honored by the Lord . . . But those who are wise toward
God will now have nothing to do with "Frank
and Ernest" or with the "Bible Students Radio
Echo
", now that these men have ceased their
association with the instrumentality God is
using in the earth to perform his work at this
time, and this regardless of what they broadcast,
whether it be good, bad or indifferent. We
are publishing this notice so that the feebleminded
(1 Thess. 5: 14) may not be deceived.

So the openness that you point out from Russell's day is contradicted by the Golden Age in 1931. You point out that Russell had said: "and many have come to a knowledge of the Truth and into full relationship with the Lord as a result of these ministries outside of the Society."  [Emphasis yours.] But until recently, even during your own and my own lifetime, we continued to refer to the Dawn Bible Students as the "evil slave" and Witnesses were not trusted to even pick out what parts were good and what were bad or indifferent. The opening paragraph of the Golden Age article of July 8th had compared the "Dawn Bible Students" to the demons, and the article continued putting them in the Haman class, the Korah class, etc.

The response to that article is, of course, the Op-Ed you presented, and it was from Norman Woodworth's "Dawn Bible Students." It was actually from Norman Woodworth himself speaking out against these statements from the Watch Tower Society. It was in a publication called "Witness Bulletin" in its very first issue in

    Hello guest!
(released in September, I believe). Clayton Woodworth published a response to it in the October 14, 1931 Golden Age. The very title of the article is indeed an echo of some of the points that Raymond Franz made in the book "In Search of Christian Freedom." C.Woodworth's response complains that the term "Christian liberty" (Christian Freedom) was used so many times that it's obvious that the writer of your Op-Ed preferred Christian liberty over obedience. The Golden Age response was titled "Liberty or Obedience -- Which?"  It's easy to guess which side the Watch Tower publications would favor here. 

(In truth, of course, we should never seek unlimited freedom, which is a point that R.Franz makes, too. Obedience to Jehovah and Jesus are actually a part of our Christian freedom, even though Jesus said "his load was light." It's proper obedience that produces the joy we find in the freedom for which "Christ set us free.")

Only a portion of that Op-Ed was ever reproduced in the WT publications. The response was to clamp down and denigrate, even to literally "demonize" the persons who continued to remain in a "cult" to Russell. Of course, Dawn made many valid points, too. And Rutherford was correctly trying to move "Jehovah's witnesses" away from this "cult" status, at least for those Bible Students who would remain loyal and obedient to the Watch Tower Society.

On 2/5/2019 at 8:50 AM, FelixCA said:

This is the kind of openness the Watchtower framers had.

Quite the opposite. It is a monument to the close-mindedness that had developed, and which was already developing in Russell's time as president of the WT Society. The real differences between Rutherford's and Norman Woodworth's views could have been easily explained. There was no need to just simply demand "obedience" and demand that this "Dawn" group be called "evil." A major problem, too, was that there was a financial issue in the way, and it was causing a division among brothers especially after the "Crash of 1929" and the Great Depression. Rutherford had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Russell's books in warehouses and he wanted to continue with several months' worth of selling campaigns to recover the money from these. (The WTS had continued to print them by the hundreds of thousands up until 1927, and for a few years, they still sold better than Rutherford's books.) Both groups, "Dawn" and the WTBTS, were competing to sell Russell's books, even though Witnesses were beginning to question this practice, asking why they were selling books that were full of known falsehoods (and exactly the same books being sold by the "evil slave).

Of course, Rutherford demanded obedience. The "Bulletin" would say, in effect: 'If the Lord wants us to sell Russell's books, then that's what we'll do.'  It even added that if one were to be disobedient to Rutherford, it would be the same as being disobedient to the Lord.

The ka book says, simply:

*** ka chap. 17 p. 347 par. 33 The “Slave” Who Lived to See the “Sign” ***
Later in the year 1927 any remaining stocks of the six volumes of Studies in the Scriptures by Russell and of The Finished Mystery were disposed of among the public.

What it doesn't mention however, is that it actually entailed many months of campaigns over a period of several years --even past 1933. Here's an example from the Bulletin of December 1931:

image.png

 

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Let me check. Is this the open or the closed JW forum?

ahhh, it’s the open forum.

HEY @James Thomas Rook Jr.! HERE’S SOME GOOD COUNSEL FOR YOU!

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We
are publishing this notice so that the feebleminded
(1 Thess. 5: 14) may not be deceived.

It’s  GAME ON, YOU PORK CHOP!

And after I was so nice to you on the closed forum.

(sorry)

”the riot squad is restless; they need somewhere to go”...Bob Dylan 

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On 2/7/2019 at 10:37 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, there you go then. Coordinated effort such as under the direction of the GB can result in real spiritual benefits to people around the world, particularly in developing lands.

You sitting ALONE in your hut cannot, even if you are tight with Jesus.

I think it is the selfishness of the independent course that most annoys me. 

My, you give Jesus little credit.

I know I’ve posted these scriptures; but here I will quote it from the International Children’s Bible 😊

Then the angel who was talking with me came back. He woke me up as if I had been asleep. He asked me, “What do you see?”

I said, “I see a solid gold lampstand. There is a bowl at the top. And there are seven lamps. There are also seven places for wicks. There are two olive trees by it. One is on the right of the bowl. And one is on the left.”

I asked the angel who talked with me, “Sir, what are these?”

The angel said, “Don’t you know what they are?”

“No, sir,” I said.

Then he told me, “This is the message from the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘You will not succeed by your own strength or by your own power. The power will come from my Spirit,’ says the Lord of heaven’s armies.

No mountain (the “mountainlike organization”) can stand in Zerubbabel’s way. It will be flattened. Then he will bring out the topmost stone. There will be shouts of ‘It’s beautiful! It’s beautiful!’”

(Definitely we are not talking about a corrupt organization that calls itself "Zion".)  

Then the Lord spoke his word to me again. He said: “Zerubbabel has laid the foundation of this Temple. (Not the Watchtower “temple”, but that which is built upon faithful anointed “living stones” 1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9)  He will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord of heaven’s armies has sent me to you.

10 The people should not think that small beginnings are unimportant. They will be happy when they see Zerubbabel with tools, building the Temple.

“(These seven lamps stand for the eyes of the Lord. They look back and forth across the earth.)”

11 Then I asked the angel, “What are the two olive trees on the right and left of the lampstand?”

12 I also asked him, “What are the two branches full of olives? The olive oil flows through the two gold pipes to the lamps.”

13 He answered, “Don’t you know what they are?”

“No, sir,” I said.

14 So he said, “They stand for two men. They have been appointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”

 

A symbolic “two” will complete the work God has outlined for them. Rev 11:1-6  Do you know how many that is?  Do you think it is 8 million people?  Doubtfully.

 

“Also, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about something, then you can pray for it. And the thing you ask for will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 This is true because if two or three people come together in my name, I am there with them.”  Matt 28:19,20

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

can't tell for sure who you are talking to here. You addressed the post with the Op-Ed to @TrueTomHarley, but this current post that I'm quoting from directly responds to some points that I made. So if it's all the same to

It was probably for you. I had no idea what he was talking about and only responded to what I knew.

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3 minutes ago, Witness said:

IMy, you give Jesus little credit.

Jesus with the organization that he leads results in persons of developing lands possessing modern Bible translations that, if need be, are free.

Jesus ‘in the hearts’ of renegade anointed who refuse to cooperate with an arrangement because they think they are not given their proper place results in those persons stuck with an archaic translation that they can neither understand nor afford.

That’s why I think he operates in the first way.

My, you give Jesus little credit.

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6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Jesus ‘in the hearts’ of renegade anointed who refuse to cooperate with an arrangement because they think they are not given their proper place

Tom, who do I bring out constantly that have not been given credit as to their proper place?  The anointed ones.  I speak for THEM.   Since these priests have been supplanted by those not priests, not spiritual Israel, but spiritual "Gentiles" ruling over them, then how can you say Jesus is in agreement "with an arrangement" that men have formed?  Uninspired men?    

Jesus, who is the Head of his anointed body and the Temple.  Eph 5:22-30  These scriptures explain who the anointed are to be "submissive" to.  It isn't to men.  

What does Rev. 11:1-3 say?  Have you read it?  

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32 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Jesus with the organization that he leads results in persons of developing lands possessing modern Bible translations that, if need be, are free.

The organization that he leads is built on his body with "living stones". Eph 2:20-22   Perhaps you've got the wrong organization.  Rev 13:1-10   Notice..."this demands perseverance and faith of the saints".  Why? Because this "organization"/Beast is bent on conquering them.  

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On 2/3/2019 at 2:59 AM, FelixCA said:

Just like the obsession you have with the 6000 years. Maybe if you look at it by someone else’s perspective.

I have absolutely no obsession with the 6,000 years. Pointing out that F.Franz had an evident obsession with something unscriptural, is not the same as having an obsession myself.

I see that the only support you offered about the 6,000 years was not from the Bible, of course, but from "HA 1423." (For anyone who is not aware, this is from

    Hello guest!
, an infamous source of several of Nelson Barbour's chronology mistakes, that he passed along to a chronologically naive Charles Taze Russell.)

HA1423

Similarly the pseudo- Barnabas, a very ancient though Apocryphal writer: "Consider, my children, what that signifies, He finished them in six days. The meaning is, that in 6000 years the Lord will bring all things to an end," &c.
The same expectation as to the six days of creation typifying 6000 years, as the term of the present world's duration,
continued, as we have seen, (see p. 230, &c, supra) even among the anti- premillennarian fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries. Only they explained the sabbatical seventh day as typical, not of a seventh sabbatical Millennium of rest, but an eternal Sabbath: - - a view generally adopted afterwards.

An apocryphal writer, from the era of apostasy, as @Outta Here has elsewhere pointed out, had an obsession with numerology and gematria. He clearly misinterprets scripture by claiming that the words "he finished them in six days" means that in 6,000 years, the Lord will bring all things to an end. I'm not saying that Barnabas did not get some things right, or that the anti-premillennarian fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries did not get some things right. But it's never a good idea to depend on a non-Biblical, apocryphal misinterpretation to impose an idea on scripture when absolutely no support for anything like it is found anywhere in the Bible.

It's actually a good thing that you pointed out that this is ultimately where the Watch Tower Society got this unscriptural idea from.

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

He clearly misinterprets scripture by claiming that the words "he finished them in six days" means that in 6,000 years,

Without getting too bogged down in this matter, I presume the discussion is around the length of the creative epoch/age/day we now find ourselves in?

Discussions on this apect of speculative chronology indeed have their fascinating side, (if you are in the mood for it), and there is no shortage in the contribution made by various Bible Students to the debate, even if it does venture into realms of reminiscent a Pyramidology type mentaliity at times. But as far as JWs are concerned officially , we do not seem to have ventured very far from the statement made in the old 1971 Aid to Bible Understanding, on page 392:  "The Bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods ."

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22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Jesus with the organization that he leads results in persons of developing lands possessing modern Bible translations that, if need be, are free.

You might want to do some research to see just how many organizations offer free Bibles all around the world.  

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:45 PM, Outta Here said:

Without getting too bogged down in this matter, I presume the discussion is around the length of the creative epoch/age/day we now find ourselves in?

I recalled a comment from last year where you commented positively on the new way of referring to these days as aeons or epochs, rather than literal days, and then added the following comment:

On 8/12/2018 at 11:37 AM, Outta Here said:

By that old reckoning it appears that we are 43 years in to Adam's settlement/cultivation/animal naming/no helper period and still counting.

1975+43=2018 (last year). This old reckoning might seem ridiculous now, especially after the Watchtower once argued that this period could be a matter of weeks or months, but could not go beyond 2 years. But there are still some Witnesses who haven't kept up and believe there must be some validity to the 6,000 year theory. (A partial salvage of the theory, without any reference to 6,000 or 7,000 years, was rewritten in a much better way in a 2011 Watchtower:

*** w11 7/15 p. 24 God’s Rest—What Is It? ***
God’s Rest—What Is It?

During the time that Fred Franz was still alive and still working on his last prophetic book "Revelation -- Its Grand Climax at Hand" an article was written dealing with the Jubilee year and how the 49th year was related to the 50th:

*** w87 1/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
Second, a study of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and of our location in the stream of time strongly indicate that each of the creative days (Genesis, chapter 1) is 7,000 years long. It is understood that Christ’s reign of a thousand years will bring to a close God’s 7,000-year ‘rest day,’ the last ‘day’ of the creative week. (Revelation 20:6; Genesis 2:2, 3) Based on this reasoning, the entire creative week would be 49,000 years long. . . . According to Romans 8:20, 21, Jehovah God purposes to liberate believing mankind from this slavery. As a result, true worshipers on earth “will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”—See also Romans 6:23. . . . While the small group selected to be taken to heaven have had their sins forgiven from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward and thus already enjoy the Jubilee, the Scriptures show that the liberation for believing mankind will occur during Christ’s Millennial Reign. That will be when he applies to mankind the benefits of his ransom sacrifice. By the end of the Millennium, mankind will have been raised to human perfection, completely free from inherited sin and death. Having thus brought to an end the last enemy (death passed on from Adam), Christ will hand the Kingdom back to his Father at the end of the 49,000-year creative week.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

So although the 1969/1971 Aid Book, as you pointed out, had said that we don't know the length of the creative days, this probably came from the idea that a Bible Dictionary should not contain esoteric beliefs that are not actually based on the Bible, but are just a traditional interpretation. R.Franz must have recognized this fact, while preparing the Aid Book, but apparently there was a faction that thought this "reasonable" approach was very dangerous. It admits that we don't know everything. I have personal anecdote that let me know that this is exactly what at least two brothers (Greenlees and Schroeder) thought would, initially, be the way to get R.Franz removed, by exposing the non-dogmatic approach in the Aid Book style that tends to erode dogma. I'll save the anecdote for another time, but I think it is easy to recognize that this kind of approach to the Bible takes a lot of power away from the interpreters. (The anecdote did not concern the length of the creative days.)

Even in the lead-up to 1975, there was a need, probably influenced by the Aid Book, to start using words like "evidently" rather than just speaking dogmatically:

*** w73 2/1 p. 82 Will Your Days Be “Like the Days of a Tree”? ***
Since each of the creative “days” or periods was evidently seven thousand years long, the whole creative “week” takes in 49,000 years.

Compare that with the dogmatism in the previous decades:

*** w51 1/1 pp. 27-28 The Christian’s Sabbath ***
Since the sabbath was a part of the law and the “Law has a shadow of the good things to come”, of what was the sabbath a shadow? Of the grand rest day for all mankind, the 1,000-year reign of Christ, the seventh 1,000 years of God’s rest day. For six thousand years mankind has been toiling and suffering under “the god of this world”, Satan the Devil. In that antitypical sabbath Christ will free men from the bondage of Satan and his demons . . .

*** w63 8/1 p. 460 par. 14 Religion and the Nuclear Age ***
We could continue verse by verse through the entire period of the six creative days, periods of time that other Bible passages show to have been each 7,000 years in length.

Of course, no other Bible passages were shown to indicate this, just a footnote to see the book by F.Franz, Let God Be True, 1943.

Hebrews 3 & 4 does connect Psalm 95:11 to Genesis 2:2, but without any connection to a certain number of years and without any reference to the millennium of Christ's reign.

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we don't know the length of the creative days

All the "evidently"s, "reasoning"s, "understanding"s etc that are postulated with regard to a 49000 year creative week theory remain firmly in the realms of imagination in the light of the 1971 statement  "The Bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods ."

I don't have a problem with the idea of Jehovah' having a rest day into which we can figuratively "enter" as Paul describes. No problem either with the notion that this rest "day" commenced after the creation of Eve. And also no problem with the idea that this period will of necessity include the 1000 year millenial reign of Christ. This reign, among other things, will oversee successfully the populating of planet earth and the bringing of it into a condition that Jehovah can judge as "very good" when the seventh creative epoch ends.

All the rest of the chronological surgery that goes on regarding the "time of the end" is quite simply "playing doctors" with time. Our Leader, Jesus, helped us to appreciate that when he stated clearly that "“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Matt.24:36.

It seems that individuals get very "precious" about their own sepeculations about when this day or hour will be, or not be. The emotional ranting around this I do not really understand. For me it is interesting, even fascinating, to consider the many views on this matter, including the 49000 year idea, but to be honest, none of them do I loose any sleep over. In fact, since I have had it confirmed from the Holy Scriptures (or the Bible depending on your language) that we are in "the last days" and that there is something that we can do to work along with Jehovah and Jesus at this time, I have enjoyed my sleep infinitely better than ever before, knowing that my future is safely in the hands of the one who says: 

From the beginning I foretell the outcome, and from long ago the things that have not yet been done. I say, ‘My decision will stand, and I will do whatever I please.’  Is.46:10

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However in the 1960's the 'teaching' was that each creative day was 7,000 years long. I know as I was having a study at the time and that is exactly what i was taught in my Bible study.. That was part of the foundation of my learning about God and Christ and Creation. 

I don't care who denies it, but that is what was taught. Creative days =7,000 years. Rest day 6,000 years then Armageddon, then 1,000 years of Christ's rule. Then Christ hands it all back to God ( possibly for a Jubilee year ? or some such).. 

That is what I was taught. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 12:54 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you need an OUTLINE to give a talk at a funeral ?  ...But they want you to stick to an outline to give a funeral talk and they much prefer you to be an Elder or M/S ? 

You are confusing JWs with those churches in which everyone gets up and gives his ‘testimony.’

Were it at a funeral home, I could do anything I wanted, without regard for being elder or MS. But it is not a free-for-all at the Kingdom Hall, so my giving the talk there was not a given. 

As it turned out, it was okayed, doubtless because people there know me well & I was a very close friend of the deceased.

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

What Bible teach not what men teach many times. Motto? Better to know what Bible teach.

Yes I agree with you. But my point was that Jehovah's Witnesses were given that information to teach others when they were taking a Bible study. And that information was lies. So Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching lies to their students. 

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10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But my point was that Jehovah's Witnesses were given that information to teach others when they were taking a Bible study. And that information was lies. So Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching lies to their students. 

No more than Isaac Newton taught lies.

Forgive me for saying so, John, but I think you have a basic disconnect with the way that God operates towards humans. Continually we read of Bible characters who propagate things that later turn out to be wrong.

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23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No more than Isaac Newton taught lies.

Forgive me for saying so, John, but I think you have a basic disconnect with the way that God operates towards humans. Continually we read of Bible characters who propagate things that later turn out to be wrong.

And in your opinion that makes it Ok for the JW Org to teach lies does it ? 

Showing your true colours I think. Gives you more to write about probably :) 

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And in your opinion that makes it Ok for the JW Org to teach lies does it ? 

On the contrary. It means that if anyone mentions Isaac Newton in my presence, I make them wash their mouth out with soap.

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