Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  John 6:64

Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” ¹¹ For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”  John 13:10,11

 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. ²⁴ But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, ²⁵ and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.  John 2:23-25

 

 

 

 

[Melinda Mills]

Jesus at some point knew it was Judas.  It was prophesied that someone close would do it. Jesus would have discerned that it was Judas as he showed up his deviousness surrounding greed for money, among other things written and not written. However, Jesus prayed all night  before choosing Judas and the others.  He was a good person at that point.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus at some point knew it was Judas.  It was prophesied that someone close would do it. Jesus would have discerned that it was Judas as he showed up his deviousness surrounding greed for money, among other things written and not written. However, Jesus prayed all night  before choosing Judas and the others.  He was a good person at that point.

“At some point”. Yes, he prayed because he said he did nothing but what the Father told him.  John 5:30; 8:28.  Since God knows all things, do you believe He would keep Judas as the betrayer a secret from Jesus, letting him find out on his own?   You are saying Jesus had no ability given him by God, to read the heart of man. Scriptures say otherwise.  John 2:23-25; 6:64  Judas was chosen as a betrayer.  It sounds like your saying that Jesus was in the dark about who of the 12, would betray him until he proved himself to be a thief.  Both God and Christ knew his heart.  John 2:23-25.  Jesus knew “from the beginning”.  “He knew all men”.   

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Do you believe he didn't know how he would die, or that Pilate would be instrumental in sending him to his death at the demand of the Pharisees?  He knew exactly how it would happen and by whom. 

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”   John 8:54-58

Judas’ role as the betrayer was fulfilled. Ps 41:9; Mark 14:19-21   Jesus’ choice for the twelfth apostle was Paul; another stumbling block most likely, for JWs. He personally chose all 12 apostles, as well as who would betray him.  Matthias was chosen by men, who cast lots. Acts 1:26

Here are examples of Jesus’ knowing what was in the heart of each person even before speaking with them.

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, ⁷ “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

⁸ Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Mark 2:6-8

 

When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”⁴⁸ “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.” ⁴⁹ Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 18:47-49

How did Jesus see him?  Spiritually, physically?  How did he determine that Nathaneal had “no deceit” unless he read his heart?  John 18:47-49

 

 

 

 

[Melinda Mills]

Agree with most of what you said. But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

See passage below.  This is all for now.

*** it-2 pp. 129-130 Judas ***
Became Corrupt. Near Passover 32 C.E., Judas, with the other apostles, was sent out preaching. (Mt 10:1, 4, 5) Shortly after Judas’ return, and less than a year after he had been made an apostle, he was publicly denounced by Christ, though not by name. Some disciples left Jesus, being shocked over his teachings, but Peter said that the 12 would stick with Christ. In response Jesus acknowledged that he had chosen the 12 but said: “One of you is a slanderer [Gr., di·aʹbo·los, meaning “devil” or “slanderer”].” The account explains that the one who already was a slanderer was Judas, who “was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.”—Joh 6:66-71.
In connection with this incident John says: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (Joh 6:64) From Hebrew Scripture prophecies Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate. (Ps 41:9; 109:8; Joh 13:18, 19) God also, by use of his foreknowledge, had seen that such a one would turn traitor, but it is inconsistent with God’s qualities and past dealings to think that Judas had to fail, as if he were predestined. (See FOREKNOWLEDGE, FOREORDINATION.) Rather, as already mentioned, at the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus John must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it. (Joh 2:24, 25; Re 1:1; 2:23) Judas must have known he was the “slanderer” Jesus mentioned, but he continued to travel with Jesus and the faithful apostles and apparently he made no changes.
The Bible does not discuss in detail the motives for his corrupt course, but an incident that occurred on Nisan 9, 33 C.E., five days before Jesus’ death, sheds light on the matter. At Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, Mary, Lazarus’ sister, anointed Jesus with perfumed oil worth 300 denarii, about a year’s wages for a laborer. (Mt 20:2) Judas strongly objected that the oil could have been sold and the money “given to the poor people.” Evidently other apostles merely assented to what seemed to be a valid point, but Jesus rebuked them. Judas’ real reason for objecting was that he cared for the money box and he “was a thief . . . and used to carry off the monies” put in the box. So Judas was a greedy, practicing thief.—Joh 12:2-7; Mt 26:6-12; Mr 14:3-8.
Betrayal Price. Judas was undoubtedly stung by Jesus’ rebuke about the use of money. At this time “Satan entered into Judas,” likely in the sense that the traitorous apostle gave himself in to the will of the Devil, allowing himself to be a tool to carry out Satan’s design to stop Christ. A few days later, on Nisan 12, Judas went to the chief priests and temple captains to see how much they would pay him to betray Jesus, again showing his avarice. (Mt 26:14-16; Mr 14:10, 11; Lu 22:3-6; Joh 13:2) The chief priests had that day met together with “the older men of the people,” the influential men of the Sanhedrin. (Mt 26:3) The temple captains may have been brought in because of their influence and to lend legal flavor to any planned arrest of Jesus."

 

[Witness]

45 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

And Judas had that freedom of choice just as the Pharisees did, as all those who are wicked  “from youth up”.  Judas was an “anti-christ”, a “son of perdition”.  He had the freedom to change, to be cleansed through Jesus’ teachings but his heart held fast to wickedness.

Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” ¹¹ For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.  John 13:10-11

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” ⁷¹ (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)  John 6:70-71

Was God the “Father” of the Pharisees?

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.⁴³ Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. ⁴⁴ You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

Christ’s words leading to life were not hidden from the Pharisees or Judas.   They chose to remain wicked and follow in the footsteps of their father, Satan.  Judas was the “seed” of Satan, as were the Pharisees. 

 

And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and hers;
he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”  Gen 3:15

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Matt 12:34

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.  Matt 12:35

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
    from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Ps 58:3

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”  Matt 26:24

God already knew who would betray his Son, before Judas was ever born. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

He had the freedom to change, to be cleansed through Jesus’ teachings but his heart held fast to wickedness.

But when grace is shown to the wicked,
    they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
    and do not regard the majesty of the Lord.  Isa 26:10

1 hour ago, Witness said:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:42-44

 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Shortly after Judas’ return, and less than a year after he had been made an apostle, he was publicly denounced by Christ, though not by name.

Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate.

 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, ⁵ “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” ⁶ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.  John 12:4-6

Do you really believe it took Jesus that long to find out that Judas was corrupt?  Jesus, who knew the hearts of men?

Here's another example:

"Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat.  When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven".  At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"  Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?"    Matt 9:2-4

 

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Rather, as already mentioned, at the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus John must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it.

Firstly, they state it as fact that Judas was faithful to God and Jesus, then make the supposition that John "must have meant" that Jesus didn't recognize Judas as "bad" until almost a year after he chose him, and that this is what is meant by "from the beginning".  Judas belonged to Satan "from the beginning" as his spawn,  right along with the Pharisees.

 Watchtower’s leaders are so adept at lessening  and hiding the power of Christ; yet, he predicted Peter’s denial of the Christ before Peter fulfilled his words. Luke 22:34    He was a prophet AND the Son of God;  have JWs forgotten this?

I hope you can reason on this through the scriptures, Melinda.  

 

 

[Witness]

 

If Christ, who is one in Spirit with the Father (John 17:22),  did not know who would betray him when choosing the 12 apostles, then how does the uninspired GB know they are the "faithful and discreet slave"?    Luke 3:8; Matt 7:16

[Srecko Sostar]

21 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

This sort of subject, question on predestination, free choice and God's capacity to see future is problematic to understand, for me at least :)))

Some quotes from WT publications stated, how God can see your future and all in your personal life, but he  not using his capacity, power to do that, how he respects your individuality and privacy, so he has no need to deal with you in such way. But on other hand he will use this method if he have reason for that. All examples about idea and practice, when God decide to brake your  privacy, ant to used this kind of going into your free will, future, state of heart and mind, we have in few bible reports, Judas is one example.

If God see your bad intentions, and how you will never, but never, for sure never change your attitude as in Judas case, then NO ONE can give any help to such person. If God saw how Judas alone as person can not change his personality, how Jesus can not help him to change, how no one of his family, friends can do nothing about it, than all is in vain even for Judas alone and all his intentions and tries, because God Himself saw and PREDICT how such person will be born and done this to Jesus. And how that will not be done by some brother from Egypt or China but ONLY from one of 12. And in one of 12 only Judas will be that person. God saw how Judas, and no one else but Judas will do this. And by that, God "choose" Judas for doing this act. Did God saw Judas future before Adam and Eve creation?? Or after? Or before Abraham? Or before John Baptist? This would be Speculative conversations and theories !!!!! coming to NO WHERE!

If He saw Judas failure future,  did he decide how he can not help him because, as verses said, Judas heart was bad?? So, how many hearts here on this forum are bad in that way, that god can not do nothing about that?? 

JW believe how life is not predestined. Only believes how God can see your future, and future of all mankind.  But with subject of "prophesies" you must to enter in sphere of predestination.

Is "prophecy" merely God's looking in future events that will be? If it is, then life is predestined in some way, because future is already past event, for God at least who saw your past, present and future before you came in existence. And if He decide not to intervene,  people can not do nothing else but just the things He saw they/you are doing.

If "prophecy" is something what will be done by somebody in the future, than you are again in sphere of predestination because somebody will and must fulfill particular "prophecy" because God already saw particular event.

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

[Melinda Mills]

He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

Ok, but one little detail - God also has free will to chose, and by that to cause or not to cause outcome of something. And we will never know what was happened.   

Or, we can talk about question; Does God has free will? Or He acting in a way He MUST to act, because He is God and God acting as God. When people say God is love and good, than they mean, He can't be unrighteous, or bad. So, by that, He has not free will to act in a different way but only in one way - always showing justice, mercy, love ....even in a situation when he killing humans. Interesting,    

[Melinda Mills]

We know he has free will. Were made in his image so the free will starts with Him. Gen 1:26. No discussion needed on that.