Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Quote "Also, just my opinion, but I don't think we need anything except to keep our eyes open and see the works of various Christian brotherhoods to know whether or not Jehovah's spirit is acting upon them. By their works you will recognize them. It's not that works result in our salvation, but that the "works" of the spirit result in "love, joy, peace, patience, etc., etc." If our hearts desire Christian association with loving, peaceful, patient persons, we would find such ones to associate with."

Well I will admit that I haven't been going around different 'Christian brotherhoods' testing to see if they are good or not. 

However I have been connected to the JW organisation since I was around 19 and I'm now 69. And in that 50 years I've seen many things that are not Christian in that org. Many Elders that didn't have the right attitude or heart condition. I've seen Elders disfellowshipped. I know of one Elder that committed suicide by backing his Volvo up to his lounge window and put a hose through into his lounge and sat in a chair drinking alcohol and inhaling the exhaust smoke. Now that was a wonderful Christian attitude wasn't it ?  But his wife remarried very soon after, a ministerial servant, son of another Elder.  And that congregation was run by two families. it was like the mafia. I tell you truthfully I was glad to leave Filton Congregation in Bristol. Not a good example for those inside or outside. 

Then when i arrived here in Devon, I was in the Sidmouth congregation. But a new KH was built in a place named Honiton and the Sidmouth congregation had to join up with the Honiton congregation. I never known so much bickering over Elders positions. Of course joining two congregations there were too many Elders so some of them lost their positions. And the two congregations were not happy at all. I didn't see much examples of this love and peace you mention and funny thing is the total number of congregants very soon went down. At first the new hall was very crowded but within three months it  was half empty. 

I'm sorry I'm just telling it as it is, and could relate much more. So this idea that the JW Org is guided by God's Holy spirit is just a dream that JW's want to believe. 

You talk about : "works" of the spirit result in "love, joy, peace, patience, but what about the CSA committed by many Elders and other congregants earthwide ?  What about the shunning of people that were not disfellowshipped for sinning ?  So much badness in that Org from the top down.

[Witness]

17 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Darn, you stated something I hate to agree with. My hat off to you Sr. Finally some intelligence. You might relay that to witness. This person considers to be anointed or even better, from the natural Jew of royal priesthood.

 

Really?  Have I ever said that?  I am not of Jewish natural descent.  Is the anointed “royal priesthood” made up of physical Jews? 

1 Pet 2:5,9,10  - you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; ¹⁰ who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Gal 3:29 - And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.

2 Cor 11:2 - I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy.  I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.  

The anointed priesthood under Christ are spiritual “Israel”.  Rev 5:9,10; 7:4

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Of course joining two congregations there were too many Elders so some of them lost their positions. 

This never happens. Everyone who is an elder remains an elder unless some are seen to no longer qualify. Judging from what you have written, that would have been the case where you hail from.

It often takes a big blowup of some sort because elders are like people anywhere—they tend to give others the benefit of the doubt, disinclined to judge the “straw” in their brother’s eye, on account of the “rafter” in their own. It is not an easy thing to delete a colleague or to persuade one to step down in the absence of some big blowup. In times of great blowups, it sometimes takes a circuit overseer or two to sort things out.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You talk about : "works" of the spirit result in "love, joy, peace, patience, but what about the CSA committed by many Elders and other congregants earthwide ?  What about the shunning of people that were not disfellowshipped for sinning ?  So much badness in that Org from the top down.

I've seen a lot of love and long-lasting friendships. I've seen some awful things too, and heard about many more. But the congregations I have been in over many years (from age 0 to 66) have had very few of these problems.

I thought there had not been any cases of CSA in any congregation I had personally been in, but there was a huge commotion at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members for the first time AT THE FUNERAL itself. Several (including me) were shocked and surprised.

But this is far from the norm. I've worked in the sound "A/V" booth at many assemblies/conventions since I was a teenager, and have made friends from all over the world. Then, when traveling, I have often met up with these friends. Perhaps I assume that this has been the norm for most Witnesses.

I know that there has been a trend toward more problems, although that's also just my opinion. But I hear about more problems and also see attendance down in several places.

We'd all like to see CSA eliminated from everywhere. I don't believe that we will ever be immune from problems the rest of the world has. But I'd hate to think that it's just as common with us as it is in some other religious institutions. But I don't blame the two-witness rule for the crime, but I do blame it for the slow wheels of congregational justice. And who knows? I think people like Raymond Franz had a chance to fix that part of the problem much earlier, and yet he was evidently blind to it.

I have a feeling that both CSA and shunning will both be "fixed" to the best of the organization's ability from a procedural/rules perspective within a couple of years. It will still happen, of course, but the policies will be adjusted to conform to something more loving. I heard a well known brother in a responsible position at Bethel say that there were only two things that needed to change to nearly remove all the "deserved" animus against us: our shunning policy and our blood policy. He thought both of them should be changed for scriptural reasons. I'm sure he hadn't realized how big the CSA problem would be when more fully exposed.

Local squabbling will always be a problem when brothers see titles as positions of "power" for their ego, instead of opportunities to serve one another more efficiently. I've seen a share of it, and assumed it didn't happen as much elsewhere. I was in a place to hear some yelling and screaming back in the 70's and 80's at Bethel, and a friend tells me that he thinks all the GB get along very well, but that the "helpers" have been known to squabble loudly. Perhaps some things are worth squabbling about. (and most things probably aren't) The apostle Paul speaks of such things even in his own life as a Christian.

Well, you probably know that I don't try to defend everything that's wrong, and I think that everything that's wrong should actually be exposed in the city gates. Exposure actually reduces bad behavior. I've seen it happen directly a few times. Perhaps even bad doctrines and bad decisions and bad policy can be revisited if enough people raise questions publicly. I heard a brother in the Writing Department say that he'd like to see all the things fixed right away that Raymond Franz exposed, and he lamented that some would not be easy to fix. But many of them have already, by now, been fixed.

[Witness]

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Yet this is the attitude you harbor to lord over the Watchtower GB. Then how can anything you state be credible. Thanks for finally understanding what it is to be a "real" anointed class, that your personal conduct doesn't make you.

Would it be any different from someone writing dense comments about hearsay, yet find it a need to post unfavorable comments as though it is a fact and news worthy. Can it be, since that persons post have permission by the poster to have the comments redirected to apostate sites would be the appeal for such unchristian conduct. What does scripture say about gossip that a true Christian wouldn't understand? Yet that form is violated by this individual almost daily and applauded by other supposed members by their up votes. Does that make those people any better?

 

 

For a Christian, with age comes spiritual maturity. It's not supposed to revert someone back to an spiritual infant.

 

 

Attitude? Finally understanding?  Gossip?  Unchristian Conduct?

It is unfortunate, but you are a very confused man. 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

and I think that everything that's wrong should actually be exposed in the city gates

JW Congregations do not have "City Gates". (JW's are spiritual nomads, wandering for green grass, living under tents, not in the cities) :))

For that reason God allowed that some trials, judging and revelations/expose are/was happen/ed under ................Worldly City Gates.

[JOHN BUTLER]

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This never happens. Everyone who is an elder remains an elder unless some are seen to no longer qualify. Judging from what you have written, that would have been the case where you hail from.

It often takes a big blowup of some sort because elders are like people anywhere—they tend to give others the benefit of the doubt, disinclined to judge the “straw” in their brother’s eye, on account of the “rafter” in their own. It is not an easy thing to delete a colleague or to persuade one to step down in the absence of some big blowup. In times of great blowups, it sometimes takes a circuit overseer or two to sort things out.

You seem to have a habit of telling people that 'this never happens'. I think you told James the same about his comment.

Tom please wake up to the reality of JW life, sh-t happens. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider in a nutshell it seems to me you are saying that JW Org /Watchtower Soc' are no better than any other religion, and can be seen to be no better.

JW's are volunteers, except for JW children of course. Hence I think baptism should not be until an 'adult' age. Then every real baptised JW would be a volunteer. People in the world are not volunteers. They are born into the world. So I see no point comparing JW's with people of the world. 

Quote "I thought there had not been any cases of CSA in any congregation I had personally been in, .. "  

But how would you know unless you are an Elder ? It's not announced from the platform is it. 

Quote "I've seen a lot of love and long-lasting friendships.. "

I go to classic car shows and automobilia auctions (which I'm involved in setting up ) and there are people there who have known each other for a 'lifetime' and have love and friendship amongst their fellow 'kinsmen'. 

YE olde JW's talk as though all the world is killing each other or on drugs and having multiple sex partners and orgies. Children in the JW Org are taught that everyone outside the Org serves the Devil. And the Armageddon pictures just to frighten people. 

And all people that leave the Org ' have gone back to' the 'ways of the world' which are wicked. I laugh at it all but it's not really funny. The Org lives on scaremongering. And I've said it before (but according to TTH it never happens) congregants are frightened of the Elders. Frightened of being reproved for the least little thing, whilst the Elders get away with much bigger things. 

Quote " at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members.. "

Does this mean He abused others or He was abused by others ? 

Quote "But this is far from the norm.. " How do you know that ? It may be far from the norn where you are but I'm talking Earthwide. 

Enough, 11.30 am here in England. Coffee break, I'll even ask my wife if she wants coffee too :)  

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Org lives on scaremongering.

It can be overdone. 

Still, one never hears of people swearing off watching the news because they are sick and tired of the chipper reports and the unceasing upbeat tone.

[TrueTomHarley]

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Third question is: Did they found all letters and writings? What is with other writings that pope did not want to put in Bible? Are those writings uninspired?

Are you concerned that the Sermon of Srecko did not make the cut?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

YE olde JW's talk as though all the world is killing each other or on drugs and having multiple sex partners and orgies. Children in the JW Org are taught that everyone outside the Org serves the Devil. And the Armageddon pictures just to frighten people. 

I have seen this type of attitude go overboard even from those who lived most of their lives in the world, and I cringe for new ones who might be wondering where we get this from. As a parent, I admit that I've tended to exaggerate the moral problems of the world myself, and I've learned that this fear-mongering doesn't work at all with high-school kids. In fact, my own kids (3) learned to choose their friends based on morals and maturity, but some of their Witness friends didn't really make the grade. When my daughter got married, she felt bad about having to replace some of her best friends with her "more worldly" Witness friends when it came to choosing bridesmaids.

Of course, some Witnesses had terrible experiences in the world, and the organization has truly provided a safe haven, and a spiritual paradise, relatively speaking.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote " at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members.. "

His abuse of others. In fact it was an over-the-top eulogy of how great he was with kids and how he was always interested in their spiritual welfare that seemed to trigger a muffled outburst during the talk, and just after the talk there was an argument by others in the family about always keeping quiet about shameful things. It finally spilled over to others outside the immediate family. And this brother's own granddaughter had no idea about it until the funeral. It was a mess!

[JOHN BUTLER]

Quote @JW Insider " His abuse of others. In fact it was an over-the-top eulogy of how great he was with kids and how he was always interested in their spiritual welfare that seemed to trigger a muffled outburst during the talk, and just after the talk there was an argument by others in the family about always keeping quiet about shameful things. It finally spilled over to others outside the immediate family. And this brother's own granddaughter had no idea about it until the funeral. It was a mess! "

CSA, hidden in the JW Org, at it's best then. And even you didn't know or most of the congregation so it seems. Doesn't this actually prove my point on this matter (TTH, no it never happens :) ) 

Quote " As a parent, I admit that I've tended to exaggerate the moral problems of the world myself, and I've learned that this fear-mongering doesn't work at all with high-school kids " 

Thank you for your honesty. But multiply that by 8 million JW's and it gets a bit serious. (TTH, it never happens) 

Quote " choosing bridesmaids. "  Um sorry to do this but JW's being no part of the world and not doing anything that relates to spiritism ect.... The origin of bridesmaids was to frighten or confuse evil spirits or the devil. The bridesmaids would all dress the same as the bride so that the evil spirit wouldn't know which one was the bride in case it wanted to 'attack' her. 

Some sources state that, in ancient times, originally the bride and all the bridesmaids wore exactly the same dress and veiled their faces heavily, for the purpose of confusing jealous suitors and evil spirits. In China during the feudal era, the female womb was seen as precious for the production of an heir. (Wikki)

I'll finish on this one. 

Quote "Of course, some Witnesses had terrible experiences in the world, and the organization has truly provided a safe haven, and a spiritual paradise, relatively speaking."  Hum really ? Safe ? Spiritual ? 

Well most on here know my past experience of the 'world', well some of it anyway. So I do not see the JW Org as any different to the 'world' that JW's warn people about.  And spiritual paradise ? When the GB / writing dept' keep changing the meaning of scriptures and keep adding loads to people's shoulders and not offering even one finger to lighten the load.Aa scripture comes to mind about 'We favour adding no further burden to you other than ... " 

But ignore my moaning, it has been raining here and I have outside work to do, so I'm not happy. However now is time for lunch and food helps me to be happier. Have a good day JWI.