Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have been "Gogged and Magogged" to death over the last 50 years

It may happen some more before the fat lady sings. She hasn’t done so yet, but she is clearing her throat a little. A little (okay—a lot—better attitude from you, if you please)

As for me, I approached that elder I love to tease to request spiritual help. In the event that a message of good news turns to a message of judgement, I do not want to go knock-kneed. I need courage. And I will best get that courage if I can have practice right now in delivering horrible, gut-wrenching news. 

He leaned in supportively, wondering what he could do to help.

“The next time you are the upcoming speaker, can I be the one who makes the announcement?”

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

or that Long Branch Saloon BRAZEN HUSSY, Miss Kitty.

You’d better lay off on Miss Kitty, if you don’t want to incur my wrath even further. There was only one TV show that my Dad would reliably emerge from his den to watch—Gunsmoke. She was the moral force that held that show together, that made all those lowlifes behave. Even so, Matt would have to plug some recalcitrant now and then in the street.

Let it not be you.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is the same person that scoffed at the word academia. 😁

And exalted for it by James.

  

BTK: (By the way, did you know your acronym is widely viewed as "Blind, Torture, Kill"?):

Since you are ALWAYS wrong, perhaps you should quit, while you are still a head!

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

perhaps you should quit

Not this again!

But this time I won't get involved. I counsel myself:

(Proverbs 26:17) . . .As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Scholarly JWs have admitted that it's a common problem to include bias. 

I was referring especially to a book by Rolf Furuli, which is almost 100 percent supportive of the NWT, but does admit that some theological bias is inevitable.

• Furuli, Rolf. The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation: With a special look at the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses

There has also been another book by Greg Stafford, who might no longer be a JW. He was definitely a Witness when he first wrote the first 2 or more editions of the book, and admits that a few specific passages show theological bias:

• Greg Stafford, Jehovah’s Witnesses Defended: A Reply to Scholars and Critics

There have been additional scholarly books that make the same point for specific passages and verses, though not necessarily by JWs.

• Jason BeDuhn, Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament
• (Mr.) Lynn Lundquist, The Tetragrammaton and the Christian Greek Scriptures
• Gerard Gertoux, various online writings.

The WTS has never claimed that the NWT was itself spirit-directed, or inspired in any way. If that had been claimed it would not have made sense to make the 2013 Revised Edition so different.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I apologize for you getting in the crossfire, JWI ...  but BTK46 INSULTED MY .22 CALIBER RIFLE!

i UNDERSTAND BTK46 WAS JUST A FUNNIN'' ... BUT YOU SEE, ... MAH RIFLE JUST DOHN  UNNERSTAN' !

 

He accused my rifle of hiding cowards!

 

What BTK got out of ALL my previous posts is that I DO NOT HAVE MY WEAPONS FOR SELF DEFENSE !

If there is ANYTHING that proves for all time, with absolute certainty, that his thinking is totally hosed, screwed up, and agenda driven ... THAT IS IT.

YIKES!

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There has also been another book by Greg Stafford, who might no longer be a JW. 

Who is this guy? Opposers have likened me to him. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Who is this guy? Opposers have likened me to him. 

Perhaps his book is on Amazon.com, and the reviewers may have commented on who he is (was?).

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But now JTR Jr is saying that 'brazen conduct' is not from the original scriptures.

Brazen sounds a bit archaic, and can sometimes offer ambiguity if persons are familiar with another meaning of brazen, such as the ONLY definition (made of brass) that it had in the previous NWT. In the Appendix of the NWT Reference Bible (1984):

*** Rbi8 p. 1575 4D “Tartarus” ***
In Job 41:31, 32 (41:23, 24, LXX) we read concerning Leviathan: “He makes the deep boil like a brazen caldron; . . . "

But it's not a terrible translation, as it really was used in Greek with reference to "brazen hussies." (shameless hussies, and wanton hussies - and brazen hustlers, too, for that matter.) Literally, it meant people who were not so moral as those good folks up in the town of Selge, Pisidia, Asia Minor. It's much better than the old translation in the NWT (loose conduct) which was actually a mistranslation because it implied lesser moral infractions of a more general variety.

Note Thayer's:

ἀσέλγεια, -ας, ἡ, the conduct and character of one who is ἀσελγής (a word which some suppose to be compounded of the α privative and Σέλγη, the name of a city in Pisidia whose citizens excelled in strictness of morals [so Etym. Magn. 152, 38; per contra cf. Suidas 603 d.]: others of α intensive and σαλαγεῖν, to disturb, raise a din; others, and now the majority, of α privative and σέλγω equivalent to θέλγω, not affecting pleasantly, exciting disgust), unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence:Mark 7:22 (where it is uncertain what particular vice is spoken of); of gluttony and venery, Jude 1:4; plural, 1 Peter 4:3; 2 Peter 2:2 (for Rec. ἀπωλείαις), 2 Peter 2:18; of carnality, lasciviousness: 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 4:19; 2 Peter 2:7; plural "wanton (acts or) manners, as filthy words, indecent bodily movements, unchaste handling of males and females, etc." (Fritzsche), Romans 13:13. (In Biblical Greek besides only in Wis. 14:26 and 3 Macc. 2:26. Among Greek writings used by Plato, Isocrates and following; at length by Plutarch [Lucull. 38] and Lucian [dial. meretr. 6] of the wantonness of women [Lob. ad Phryn., p. 184 n.].) Cf. Tittmann i., p. 151f; [especially Trench, § xvi.].

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is any of the NWT from the original scriptures ?

I took 4 years of Hebrew in College (7 semesters) and learned a bit of Greek at Bethel. Still an amateur, of course, but learned enough to know that the NWT is actually an excellent translation with only a few verses where bias has created areas for further study. Most of its "mis-translations," in my opinion, do not necessarily add false informaiton, just interpreted information. Most of the time I'd say the interpreted information is quite likely true, just unnecessary for a pure translation.

Personally, I find both the 1984 and 2013 NWT to be very good, even the simpler revised version. But I couldn't do without an Interlinear. There was more consistency in the old NWT, and where words were added there were usually brackets around them. You have to really know a more literal translation well, for the Revised NWT to also be as useful. And, for the present, most JWs have a good knowledge of the NWT (more literal) and the NWT Revised, which puts them in pretty good shape. A simpler, easier to read version, is better for grasping the context, and a literal translation is better for study. We have them both, plus an excellent Interlinear (KIT).

I might have a few minor complaints with the NWT, but I have hundreds more with the KJV, RSV, and ASV. There are a few things I like better about the Jerusalem Bible and the RSV, but it doesn't matter so much any more. We all have the ability to check all kinds of good Bible language resources online, and dozens of parallel Bibles online for comparison.

[Witness]

How did the enmity begin between Satan’s seed and God’s?  With a lie.  Every anointed one has had to face this enmity – truth against lies – since Christ.  It is at its peak right now, with WT leaders keeping the anointed under containment with false promises, their threats and their slanderous statements about them; oppressing their God-given role as a priest by replacing them with “foreigners”/”Gentiles”.   Eze 44:6-9; 1 Cor 3:16,17;  Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3 ONLY A REMNANT WILL SURVIVE WHAT IS HAPPENING THIS MOMENT IN THE WATCHTOWER. 

Only…if they “come out”.  Rev 18:4-8

One doesn’t have to be in a designated “heaven” to fight this war, since being “heavenly” is part of the new creation.   Anointed ones can be sealed while on earth and “reign as kings”.  Rev 5:9,10

Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels, a festive gathering,²³ to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written^[j] in heaven, to a Judge, who is God of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect, ²⁴ and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel.  Heb 12:22-24

He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, ⁷ so that in the coming ages he might display the immeasurable riches of his grace through his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.  Eph 2:6,7

The Beast of the Sea is the organization  Rev 13:1

The Beast with “two horns who speaks like a lamb” is the GB/false prophets.  Rev 13:11

They are Gog and Magog.  Rev 20:7-9

With the emergence of the organization, the symbolic “thousand years” is finished.  Satan has been “let loose” to deceive. 

DECEIVE who? 

The anointed ones, and those with them. Rev 20:7-9; 13:7

“If anyone tells you then, ‘See, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.   Matt 24:23,24

 Armagedon is fought in the valley of decision – where do we establish our spiritual decisions, but in our heart? Joel 3:14   The battle of truth against lies has been raging since Genesis.  It will finish when the Father of the lie is destroyed along with those who teach his lies.  Rev 19:20; 20:10  The anointed fight this battle with WORDS – truth from Jesus Christ; and on the opposing side, those who speak lies originating with Satan. Eph 6:12; Rev 12:7,8   If the GB had Holy Spirit, they would not need to enter into lawsuits to protect their self-interests, or buy stock in social media to quash those who speak against them (which they are doing at this moment, which they are doing to Pearl Doxsey and myself) They wouldn’t have lawyers at all.  Christ would guide them…if they were on the side of truth.  Instead, they rely on this system and its various avenues to fight against truth spoken by the anointed on the other side of the WT wall of lies.  Ezek 13:10-14  And who has power and authority over this world?  John 12:31

Rev 11:1-7; Jer 23:29

The only entity that for years has spoken of itself as a haven of “peace and security” is the organization, where…the anointed are found!  Where the anointed are told they have no more Holy Spirit than anyone else.  Where the anointed are told NOT TO MEET TOGETHER. Where they must obey men WHO ARE NOT ANOINTED THEMSELVES AND WHO ARE GIVEN THE POWER TO JUDGE THEM AS SPIRITUALLY "DEAD".  John 16:2  Can’t you see the captivity that the Watchtower has successfully created through the use of “empty philosophy”?  Isn't this the same as DECEIT?  Col 2:8  

It is a trap – a LIE – and yet, it calls itself “the truth”.   2 Thess 2:9-12

“About the times and the seasons: Brothers and sisters, you do not need anything to be written to you. ² For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. ³ When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the dark, for this day to surprise you like a thief. ⁵ For you are all children of light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or the darkness.” 1 Thess 5:1-5

Can you be a child of light where rotten discarded fruit generated in the dark recesses of the hearts and minds of men who love authority and power, exists ?  

A good person produces good out of the good stored up in his heart. An evil person produces evil out of the evil stored up in his heart, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.  Luke 6:45

Why do JWs tolerate lies?  What are they afraid of?  They are afraid of losing all that they know and possess.  Yes, the dragon has created the perfect emotional and spiritual TRAP.  

Everything, that the WT teaches about the end times – Great Tribulation, Armageddon and how the war is fought, is all a lie; actually, a flood of lies.  Rev 12:15-17

 

 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But it's not a terrible translation, as it really was used in Greek with reference to "brazen hussies." (shameless hussies, and wanton hussies - and brazen hustlers, too, for that matter.)

It's not a terrible translation ... but when it is deliberately kept ambiguous as a catch-all like a dragnet to suppress anything a Local Elder would like to suppress, based on his personal preferences, culture and political awareness of policy from New York, and accuse someone of "Brazen Conduct" if he or she asks an incorrect, unapproved question with unapproved words .... and is therefore deemed a danger to the congregation   ... a BRAZEN  rogue ... with a BRAZEN tongue ...

.... perhaps something LESS terrible and better defined, and more specific would be in order.

THE REASON THAT SPECIFIC WORD WAS CHOSEN WAS NOT FOR GREATER BIBLE ACCURACY ... IT WAS CHOSEN TO SUPPORT STATEMENTS MADE THREE YEARS PREVIOUSLY IN THE 2010 ELDERS HANDBOOK, THAT HAD NO SCRIPTURAL BACKUP,  UNTIL INVENTED, THREE YEARS LATER IN THE 2013 NWT.

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

We are not moving in a forward direction on anything here. 

We seem to have non inspired GB, leading a non inspired JW Org and Watchtower, using a non inspired translation of the Bible, and teaching non inspired teachings to millions of unsuspecting congregants. 

So what is so different to any other so called 'christian organisation' ? 

Well all this non inspired 'stuff' is taken door to door to deliberately mislead and frighten people. A sort of blackmail to make people believe that 'the only means of salvation' is through that non inspired mess mentioned above :) . For what purpose ? 

To give more power to the non inspired GB and bring in more money to the non inspired two fold organisation (Wt / JW Org) 

To think, I was once blinded by all of that ! 

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps his book is on Amazon.com, and the reviewers may have commented on who he is (was?).

You know, that’s not a bad idea. I went there. 

He has a couple of books on ‘defending Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ I guess that I should applaud, because I claim to do the same, but I find books like these such yawners (granted, I have not read his) because they defend only in a doctrinal sense, whereas I like to believe that I defend in a more practical and strategic sense. These guys give the impression that they know the Bible and nothing else. First thing you know, their head has grown so big that they almost come to believe in themselves as the faithful and discreet slave—they have pointed the way and the supertanker organization doesn’t follow. Disgruntled, off they go as the True Light unheeded. In time, they are launching vicious attacks agains the hand that once fed them—the very place from which the learned the truth in the first place. (Witness strikes me as one of them)

It is a shame that you are such a blowhard, James, because I rather like complaint of being Gog and Magogged to death. Exactly. You know when there are things “too great for me.” So do I. You don’t think that from your Appalachian still you are going to be emanating cutting edge scholarship. You wait for someone else to say it, and then you ask yourself, ‘Does it hang together.?’ If only you would learn to put things on the shelf when you suspect they do not rather than go all insolent (brazen) online over it and denounce everyone not doing what you think they should. 

Greg apparently devotes chapters to ‘disproving’ the Trinity. It is ridiculous. You can’t disprove it. The trick is to show that, since the doctrine defies common sense, the burden of proof is on their adherents to show that it is so. The default position favors the Witness. With very few exceptions, all ‘proof’ of the Trinity is based on taking literally certain passages which, if they were spotted anywhere else, would instantly be dismissed as figures of speech. I can picture these yo-yos reading of ‘crocodile tears’ and seizing upon it as proof that the writer is a crocodile. 

There are other Greg Stanford books on Amazon, too. they are of subjects that could represent the real one having gone over to the dark side. Or maybe they are a relative. Dunno.

I did contact him many years ago via email when people began to say of me that I sounded like another Greg Stanford. I asked who he was and he told me (then) that he was a Witness in good standing.