Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[TrueTomHarley]

JWI is very close to losing possession of his own thread, with a dozen different yo-yos taking it in a dozen different directions.

I am ashamed of us all. Usually it does not take almost 5 pages for us to knock him off the roller derby track and into the stands.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

JWI is very close to losing possession of his own thread, with a dozen different yo-yours taking it in a dozen different directions.

I am ashamed of us all. Usually it does not take almost 5 pages for us to knock him off the roller derby track and into the stands.

This is the stereotypical Snowflake reaction of someone for whom CONTROL is more important that Truth and relating experiences, wherever the conversation might lead.

It hurts Snowflakes feelings when no one will pay attention to the agenda.

That's how computers work, but human minds, in love with freedom,  wander afield. 

That's why we make them, and they do not make us.

[Srecko Sostar]

On 6/6/2019 at 3:26 PM, JW Insider said:

.....an idea probably also partly based on the fact that no group of anointed has yet become so obvious in our day that '10 men are taking hold of them' because they can see that God is with them.

Just thought. To see something, about something, connected to this "Jew group" (in spiritual or literal way) we need, i suppose, opening/overture of observer mind (observer who know what he is searching, looking for, or we can talk also perhaps about some ignorant person, who is, because of divine power will, in position to see important thing, despite his position) by divine power.

Divine power, i guess, is holy spirit, who make it possible that some person can see something. In such situation  we can talk about "inspiration from above", and a harmonized action and interaction of "two earthly elements - observer and Jew", under influence of/from Heaven. 

On 6/6/2019 at 3:26 PM, JW Insider said:

Also, just my opinion, but I don't think we need anything except to keep our eyes open and see the works of various Christian brotherhoods to know whether or not Jehovah's spirit is acting upon them. By their works you will recognize them. It's not that works result in our salvation, but that the "works" of the spirit result in "love, joy, peace, patience, etc., etc." If our hearts desire Christian association with loving, peaceful, patient persons, we would find such ones to associate with. The nuances of doctrine (like "who is the Jew with the 10 men at his robes?") is completely unimportant. But a doctrine of peace that results in them not going to war with each other would seem quite important. Personally, I would not wait for a group that explains Scripture better than the next group. That has always just been a "sub-religion" much like the philosophies of the Greeks that they thought was real wisdom.

Here we can see some literal, physical products/fruits of, as Bible explains, holy spirit. Does observer of this fruits need to be inspired (in other words, does god need to open his eyes) to be able to see fruits? Or, natural state of mind and heart is precondition to recognize (or to not recognize) the Jew who produce such fruits as prove that he is this sort of Jew?

 

Do they (JW members or other believers) consider themselves as "fishes" who are already chosen as good fishes, because they found and hold of true Jew hem? Or this separation, made by angels, is applied for all fishes, because net is one, and it was throwing, had thrown, will be throwing on all? 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I want to feel as high as those JW’s did in Canada!

And here I thought it was other types of sinning you desired . . .

On 5/7/2019 at 12:26 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would love a place that anyone can pick and choose, be good or bad at will. The last place that was that way was called Sodom and Gomorra.

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/79686-a-circuit-overseer-states-your-faith-is-garbage-and-needs-to-be-torn-down/page/2/#comments

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It hurts Snowflakes feelings when no one will pay attention to the agenda.

It wasn’t me who made the first move. It was that bad....um....uh....okay, so it was me. But others joined in taking it elsewhere. And I didn’t persist.

Surely you must have thrown in a cartoon somewhere. Oh...wait....so that you do not make the joke (AGAIN):

Shirley, you must have thrown in a cartoon somewhere. 

(For whatever it is worth, I do follow Scott Adams on Twitter so as to get my daily Dilbert.)

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Shirley, you must have thrown in a cartoon somewhere. 

(For whatever it is worth, I do follow Scott Adams on Twitter so as to get my daily Dilbert.)

NOW! you have ticked me off... STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY !

( Merely a Pavlonian response ... )

[JOHN BUTLER]

Billy the Kid puffed up with pride again i see. And back to woshing the GB. 

Either your faith is centered on the interpretation given or it isn’t.  But interpretation given by whom ? 

Ah I see,  If it isn’t, it is due to not having faith in God that he can transmit spiritual understanding on the proper time to those he has chosen on earth.  But i wonder who Billy thinks has been chosen ? 

And then Billy puts it down to : That’s a failure of those that don’t understand, dispense spiritual food at the proper time. 

Poor poor Billy, all he has is his faith in those 8 men. He hangs on their every word. 

I wonder if billy ever gives thought to the point that, if those 8 men don't actually have good spiritual food to give, then why do they give anything at all ?  Giving poison (lies, deceit, misuse of scriptures, dishonesty ) to your brothers just because you do not have good spiritual food to give, is not God's way of doing things. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You are correct. Those of us that truly understand scripture by all given arguments will understand what the Watchtower GB dispense as truth is indeed the truth. The problem lies with your kind and those fake members that have the same understanding as regular Christendom. Am I proud to understand Jesus meaning of scripture, You betcha!

What can John, Srecko, witness offer but a bunch of false accusations. 😀

But I'm sure you will up vote the rebuttal as soon as JWinsider thinks on how to turn the tables in order to come out looking good. I his mind that is. 😉

How can you say that the Watchtower society / JW Org / GB dispense truth when they keep changing the meaning of scriptures ? It is not a lie to say they they have changed the meaning of the scripture concerning 'This generation will not pass away' .. It is not a lie that they changed the meaning of the scripture concerning the 'Superior Authorities'. it gets boring repeating this but you obviously don't believe they change the meaning of scriptures. 

They also misuse scripture and misuse their 'authority' but that is another matter. 

The GB have no way of proving that they have been chosen by God to do His will. They admit not to be inspired. They even admit that they make mistakes. If they have the responsibility of 8.5 million lives already, and if they have yet another 9 million bible studies going on, and if they have the job of gathering all those with the right heart condition, then surely they would need to be inspired by God, and surely Jesus Christ would not let them give false information or make mistakes which would stumble thousands of people earthwide and stop some people even being interested in the JW Org.

As for understanding, you only seem to understand the GB's / Watchtower's meaning of scripture, so you prove yourself to be following MEN. 

Sorry Billy but you do make yourself open to criticism by your blindly believing all that the Watchtower / GB tells you. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

14 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, your analogy of the Watchtower cannot be more mistaken if you honestly, would think before you comment. The same James should have done long ago, before he allowed himself to be misled by the Devil.

In any "theological pissing contest", the arguments that have the fewest words are usually the Truth.

I think I will believe the Governing Body verbatim, on this one ..... which summarizes  arrogance and screw-ups since 1870.

It's ONLY TWO very short sentences long.

And the Truth is self-evident.

....and just as an aside, I'll match your Pope picture, and raise you two absurdities.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Billy there is no talking with you. You are completely blinded by your worship of those 8 MEN.

It matters not if they say revise, change, alter, new light, or anything else, they still deliberately tell lies. 

They use words to deceive people Billy. AND they change meanings of scripture and misuse scripture too. 

Sorry you are not mature enough spiritually or mentally to face those facts. It's your loss. 

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Sure, he lays out a beautiful presentation. It makes him look intelligent.

I'm glad you think so but that isn't the important thing, as you already know.

I guess your first point was that when I referenced the parable of the sheep being separated from the goats, I mentioned that I thought Jesus was separating two kinds of sheep from the goats.  You requoted a portion of what I said as follows:

I believe that when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats he is separating the anointed sheep as well as other sheep who don't identify themselves as anointed. (Matt 25:32)

You had asked for my opinion, and I told you this was part of my opinion. Absolutely nothing has changed. When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, these sheep will include anointed sheep and other sheep who do not identify themselves as anointed. Let's assume for example, that you believe you are one of the anointed sheep, and I believe I am one of another class of sheep, as I do not identify myself as anointed. When Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goats, I am hoping that he favors both of us with a place on his right hand, and that we are not going to be with the goats on his left.

You tried to explain that I meant something like this:

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

He is implying, that separation is between the anointed that are and aren’t as sheep and goats. That’s the impression he is laying out. There’s no other logical way of viewing his words.

There is actually so much ambiguity in that first sentence that it is difficult to parse your meaning. Perhaps I worded it in a way that confused you, but I can't find the logic in the idea you apparently got out of it. I never said anything about who any of the goats were and where they might come from. I'm including sheep who claim to be anointed and sheep who claim not to be anointed in the sheep category who Jesus will place on his right. I didn't say anything about who the goats are.

I don't see a problem, and I don't see any reason to change, revise or edit anything.

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Then when he is caught, which is often, he tries to twist words in order to confuse.

Strange. I take this to be more of the kind of blame-shifting and projection that you have become infamous for. In the past, you have often copied pages from Christendom's commentaries, and pictures of scholarly looking book covers that have titles that appear to support your claims. Then someone points out that the contents of the book show just the opposite of your claim. Then you go twisting and scrambling to make it look like you never made a mistake after all.

I've even seen this type of twisting and scrambling for something as simple as a typo or mistaken definition, or misused vocabulary. When someone pointed it out to you, you doubled-down with some absolutely incredible pseudo-explanation to avoid admitting even a minor mistake. Sometimes, you apparently resort to meaningless word-salads or other types of word-play, and I can't tell if you think it worked to impress others, or to obfuscate. But whenever you get a piece of criticism like this you can be counted on to counter-claim that it is others who use word-play and word-salads, or you go on a temper-rant claiming that people are making fun of you.

I'd recommend that before you start claiming that I say things "in order to confuse" just ask others if they were also confused. Maybe they were, and this means I should rewrite it, but if it's mostly just you who's confused, just ask more questions, and I'll be happy to explain further the things that you might not have understood correctly -- just as I am happy to do now.

You also apparently had a problem with my statement that Zechariah 8 (in context) gives us some good ideas about helping others to become Christians, which should be a goal of our ministry. You requoted a portion here: “My own opinions here are somewhat separate. Although on the matter of Zechariah 8, I think that chapter really does provide an excellent and important image for us to remember about our own attempts to make converts to true Christianity”

Again, I don't see what kind of a problem you would have with this. We want people we meet in our ministry and persons whom we hope to have study the Bible with us become converted to true Christianity. Right? The context of Zechariah 8 had shown how this would be fulfilled in the midst of economic hardships and disappointments and even the incursion of enemies/opposers. I had already pointed this out and also wanted to show how the image of having people come to us can sometimes be more important that us coming to them. If we are true Christians, we will be known by reputation. As Jesus said (and as my very next sentence began after the portion you quoted):

On 6/5/2019 at 2:28 AM, JW Insider said:

Jesus gave the illustration that just like a tree is known for its fruits, we would also attract persons who want to join our particular Christian brotherhood. Also, we know that 'by this people will recognize if we are truly Christ's disciples, if we have love among ourselves.' It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry.

I partially understand why you wish to disagree with me whenever you have a chance, but you very often seem to forget that when you are so anxious to be an opposer, when not careful, you can end up opposing Jesus' own words, too.

[JW Insider]

Just in case anyone wondered why I had thought to make the point that it was my own opinion that the sheep separated to Jesus' right would include the "anointed" -- here's the reason:

Our current Watchtower publications very often imply that the sheep that Jesus separates to his right do NOT include the anointed. Because of the distinction made between Christ's brothers and these sheep, I think most Witnesses already understand it this way, but it's rarely stated explicity and succinctly except in some convention talks. The most succinct statement I remember in writing is here in the Insight book:

*** it-1 p. 1184 Illustrations ***
Notice that the “sheep,” who are put on the right hand of the enthroned Son of man, are shown to be different from Jesus Christ’s “brothers,” to whom they did acts of kindness.—Mt 25:34-40; Heb 2:11, 12.

There have been several significant historical changes to our interpretations of this doctrine, which might make for an enlightening discussion to some. But I won't intentionally drag out this particular thread to explain. The 93 and 95 Watchtower references from the WT Publications Index will give some significant quotes about former doctrinal beliefs on the topic:

[Matthew] 25:32   it-1 1183-1184; w15 1/1 13; re 123; w98 8/15 20; w95 2/1 12-13; w95 10/15 22-24; w93 5/1 19; jv 163-164; w89 5/1 19; w87 3/1 29; w87 5/15 12-13
[Matthew] 25:33   it-1 1029, 1184; w95 2/1 12-13; w93 5/1 19; jv 163-164
[Matthew] 25:34   it-2 1207; w95 10/15 26-27; jv 164; gt 111; w90 5/15 8; w90 6/1 6; w89 9/1 19-20