Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

To intelligent people, given the atmosphere of other religions, especially the Papacy that States a POPE can make no error. Can that statement be true? When did Jesus transfer his perfection to the Pope? The first Pope according to the Catholic faith was Peter. Okay, then, When did Jesus transfer his perfection to Peter.

Wrong Billy! You changed thesis!

I am sure that you also  know, that it is not about issue of Transferring Perfection in question  but about Transferring Authority! 

After, later it came to the idea that such Authority means Infallibility.  

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'd recommend that before you start claiming that I say things "in order to confuse" just ask others if they were also confused.

This is good  :)) ..... But if someone want to be very independent free will human , than he must go by his own path :)) even in wrong direction.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Won't the Anointed already be in heaven when the judgement happens ?

The separating of sheep from goats (earthly class) will be after the Anointed are taken up surely ? 

Those truly Anointed have surely already been chosen (seperated in a way from the earthly class), although it obviously depends on their true service to God through Christ for all of their earthly life.  

To judge the Anointed again would seem strange to me. 

In my opinion it is only those of the Anointed that can sin against the spirit. Because they are Spirit Anointed and brothers of Christ. But then in my opinion the Greek scriptures were written by and only for those of the true Anointed. 

The idea of the 'early church' that the Bible was only for those 'in charge'  seems basically right to me, but unfortunately they misused that power. 

Imagine just for one moment, a truly Anointed group of 'Spiritual Jews' here on earth, having direct spiritual contact with Jesus Christ, receiving perfect spiritual information (food at the proper time), which they then pass on in an honest and righteous way, to those of the earthly class.  Just imagine those of the earthly class, receiving that perfect information  and going into the ministry with God's blessing through Jesus Christ, to pass on that true God given information to deserving ones in the world............... 

That is where I'm coming from. That is how I think it should be. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Did Christ NOT choose sinners to have such authority? Where does the word infallible lie within that authority? Once again, think!

 

 

The only wrong path taken here is the lack of Bible understanding, and those that want to make others believe on what they personally understand, rather than what scripture is saying. JWinsider is skillful in doing that to get opposers to agree with his ideology. Sad really, how he manipulates people, or rather how the devil gives him the power to change the minds of others.

 

Therefore, the only one changing the narrative Srecko is you. That makes you WRONG! 😉

 

Are yes but the sinners Christ chose were INSPIRED OF HOLY SPIRIT and Christ FULLY OPENED UP THE SCRIPTURES TO THEM. 

You cannot say that about your GB as they say they are not inspired of holy spirit and they admit making 'mistakes'. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is the article apostates have taken to heart, just like James. What did I just write James as to his dense understanding of this one paragraph? Now read the whole thing in its entirety. Perhaps you will understand where the GB is coming from. If you can't understand that, there is more in JW.org to consider.

Dense understanding of one paragraph?

The only part that is reality based is ONLY two sentences.

Take it in context?

I have my belly full of people playing with carefully crafted words, bending reality into a pretzel.

I have spent the last 50 years WATCHING the "context".

A MILLION words, carefully crafted, will not change what I know, and what I have personally seen,'

When you go to any restaurant for good food, you do not assume that the proper food, served at the proper time, a significant portion of it will be ROTTEN,.

Unless of course, the OTHER restaurants are so much worse,  you stop eating there.

Unfortunately, when I find turds in the theocratic salad, I have to eat around them.

There is nowhere else to go.

... but I do not like it!.

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have often thought of the analogy, (IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT) of being in a medieval stone dungeon, one leg chained to the wall ... and the guards do not feed you .... and relatives have to swallow squares of meat without chewing to smuggle food to you, in their own stomachs, just before they visit you.

Yeah ... it's necessary and desperately needed food ... and food at the proper time .... and I would die without it, but ....

.... it's not the meat ... it's the DELIVERY SYSTEM!

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@JW Insider  Won't the Anointed already be in heaven when the judgement happens ?

The separating of sheep from goats (earthly class) will be after the Anointed are taken up surely ? 

Good question. I see you are actually thinking about the topic rather than just being pulled down into the squabbling.

When the end comes, and the judgment comes, we can expect that there will be anointed on earth. To me this seems clear from Paul's account of the end:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2) ¹⁵ For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; ¹⁶ because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. ² For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

In other words, at some surprisingly sudden point in time, the dead (anointed) are raised to heaven together with those who are surviving right up to the time of the "parousia of the Lord." The timing has always been a matter of much conjecture. We don't like to use the term rapture, so our previous doctrine here taught that the parousia started in 1914 (as it still teaches, officially) but that the first resurrection (including Paul's resurrection) was supposed to have happened in 1918. This was a leftover from our old parallel dispensation teachings under Barbour, Russell, and early Rutherford. In fact, it was explained that because Jesus appeared as Messiah/Christ in 29 and was resurrected 3.5 years later, that the invisible appearance of Christ in October 1914 would be followed by a resurrection of all the dead saints in the spring of 1918.

But 1918, although it once appeared more often than 1919 in our publications, has now been almost completely removed from our repertoire of prophetic dates, and replaced with dates like 1919 and more recent events. Jesus no longer inspected his temple in 1918, nor do we teach that the first resurrection must have happened in that year. Instead of just making a sudden change to the doctrine, it was changed from an important prophetic date to just "an interesting possibility."

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
At this point, it may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel. Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility.

We still liked the idea of starting that resurrection "early in Christ's presence" and especially wanted to have it start before 1935. The article continues:

This means that the first resurrection must have begun early in Christ’s presence, and it continues “during his presence.” (1 Corinthians 15:23) Rather than occurring all at once, the first resurrection takes place over a period of time. . . . “A white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”—Revelation 6:10, 11. . . .  So after war, famine, and pestilence began to ravage the earth, members of the 144,000 who were dead, represented by the blood at the base of the altar, were raised to heavenly life and clothed in symbolic white robes. . . . God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, but it does reveal that it occurs over a period of time, during Christ’s presence. The first to be resurrected are anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence began. As Christ’s presence progresses, anointed Christians who faithfully finish their earthly course are changed “in the twinkling of an eye” into powerful spirit creatures. (1 Corinthians 15:52) Will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of Armageddon? We do not know. We do know, however, that in God’s due time, all the 144,000 will be found standing on the heavenly Mount Zion.

You might notice the mistake that I highlighted. The dead (whose sacrificial blood cries out for justice) are told to wait until the number was filled. But if we place this parousia from 1914 on up through the great tribulation, then we don't really have them all being changed together so that no one group of anointed has to be concerned about going to heaven before another group of anointed. Revelation says they all wait until the number is filled. Thessalonians says they all go together, at the time of that trumpet call. In fact the scripture in 1 Cor 15:52 just referenced says:

(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, ⁵² in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

This sounds very much like the "rapture" teaching that we had avoided for years by using the word "during" Christ's parousia, and "during" the last trumpet. Actually, the Greek in context here provides better support for translating "at his parousia" not "during his parousia." and "at the last trumpet."

So, more recently, the Watchtower stopped discounting the idea about the "rapture." We still don't like the word because it reminds people of some false teachings still associated with the "rapture." But the basic idea of a "rapture" is now accepted. We still look to fit it all into our timeline for the first resurrection, Gog attack, great tribulation, marriage of the Lamb, etc.

*** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-16 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! ***
This gathering work does not refer to the initial ingathering of anointed ones; nor does it refer to the final sealing of the remaining anointed ones. (Matt. 13:37, 38) That sealing happens before the outbreak of the great tribulation. (Rev. 7:1-4) So, what is this gathering work that Jesus mentions? It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43.
¹⁵ Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? Many in Christendom believe, according to this teaching, that Christians will be bodily caught up from the earth. Then, they expect that Jesus will visibly return to rule the earth. . . .  So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.) Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time.
¹⁶ Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9) But something else will happen before that joyous event. Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16)

Much more to say, but I hope you can at least see what I meant by including the heavenly anointed in the "sheep and goats" parable.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

...but then again.... this is how Parent birds feed their young ... they go out and eat insects, worms and other "stuff", predigest it, and fly back and vomit it directly into their baby birds throats.

They are happy to get it, and beg for more.

Animals often  have no other choice.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@BillyTheKid46  Quote "12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.... "

I added the phrase 'by holy spirit' actually. 

What else does God use to inspire people or anoint people or for God to work through people, via Jesus Christ  ?

Matthew 3 v 16

After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him.¹⁷  Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

Acts 2 v 3&4.

And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed, and one came to rest on each one of them,⁴  and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak in different languages, just as the spirit enabled them to speak.

Now this becomes even more interesting if we look at the word ERR which the GB or Writing Dept used. Did the GB deliberately use this word err ? Do they understand the implication of it ? 

err

/əː/

verb

FORMAL

1. be mistaken or incorrect; make a mistake.

   "the judge had erred in ruling that the evidence was inadmissible"

   synonyms:

   make a mistake, be wrong, be in error, be mistaken, mistake, make a blunder, blunder, be incorrect, be inaccurate, misjudge, miscalculate, get things/something/it wrong, bark up the wrong tree, get the wrong end of the stick, be wide of the mark; More

   • fail to adhere to the proper or accepted standards; do wrong.

     "he has erred and strayed as many of us have"

     synonyms:

     misbehave, do wrong, go wrong, behave badly, misconduct oneself, be bad, be naughty, get up to mischief, get up to no good, act up, act badly, give someone trouble, cause someone trouble;    The second meaning seems more likely.   Therefore, the GB can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.... "  It can, do wrong, go wrong, behave badly, misconduct oneself, get up to mischief, and, give some trouble.  Yep that sounds right.  The GB, for once, admitting they do wrong.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Quote "So, more recently, the Watchtower stopped discounting the idea about the "rapture."  "

Is this then something else the GB / Writing dept / W/t have changed their minds about. In fact changed meaning of scripture ?  

In honesty how many congregants have a good understanding of all this ? 

I always thought that all of the Anointed would be in heaven at Armageddon. I don't even remember being taught anything different.  I was taught that as each one of the Anointed died they went immediately to heaven... Then the living ones would be gathered up / taken up before the Judgement started. 

I'm more confused than ever now :(    Not that i have any faith in Watchtower / GB teachings anyway, but I like to consider all things. 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

JWinsider is skillful in doing that to get opposers to agree with his ideology.

Because i am one of those who are in opposition to WTJWORG ideology (officially from 2015), do you sure about your conclusion how @JW Insider skillfully deceived me to to join him in the same job? :)))

I have never met JW Insider before this Forum, and we are not in any sort of conspiracy. :))) But, I am gladly to met him and some other participants who gave comments here.   

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is why you are an apostate and I'm not.

Who said that you are not??? :))