Should true Christians use the word "Disaster"?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

You do not believe Jehovahs spirit works on the GB ..... then please explain why the GB  used the correct pronunciation all along - because the newest information proves in more  than 1000 Hebrew manuscripts with its point system -  that jehovah is the correct pronunciation. 

The GB have admitted to not being inspired of God's Holy spirit, So why should I think they are ? 

And there was NO letter J in the Hebrew alphabet at that time. 

 

Was the letter J in the Bible?

The letter “J” wasn't invented until the 1500's, so there was no official Jesus, John, Jacob, Jonah, Joseph, Jude, etc… in the bible. ..

The first letter in the name Yeshua ("Jesus") is the yod. Yod represents the "Y" sound in Hebrew. Many names in the Bible that begin with yod are mispronounced by English speakers because the yod in these names was transliterated in English Bibles with the letter "J" rather than "Y". This came about because in early English the letter "J" was pronounced the way we pronounce "Y" today. All proper names in the Old Testament were transliterated into English according to their Hebrew pronunciation, but when English pronunciation shifted to what we know today, these transliterations were not altered. Thus, such Hebrew place names as ye-ru-sha-LA-yim, ye-ri-HO, and yar-DEN have become known to us as Jerusalem, Jericho, and Jordan; and Hebrew personal names such as yo-NA, yi-SHAI, and ye-SHU-a have become known to us as Jonah, Jesse, and Jesus. So it seems very clear that God's name could NOT have been Jehovah Because the letter J did not exist in the Hebrew writings. The tetragrammaton  was YHWH

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

You do not believe Jehovahs spirit works on the GB ..... then please explain why the GB  used the correct pronunciation all along

 

On 4/6/2020 at 9:18 AM, JW Insider said:

We should still remember that Watchtower publications have admitted for decades that we chose to continue to use the common pronunciation, Jehovah, even though we considered Yahweh to be a more accurate pronunciation. 

From the Watchtower:

On 4/5/2020 at 11:21 AM, Witness said:

The name-form Jehovah came to be when early translators took the vowels of Adonayʹ and inserted them between the consonants JHVH, and then changed the original “a” to “e” to aid in pronunciation of the name.

@4Jah2me has given ample proof that "Jehovah" is an inaccurate pronunciation.  The GB itself has given you ample proof.  Sometimes, our own arrogance does not allow us to see truth.  

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

there was NO letter J in the Hebrew

If you know Arabic or Hebrew you will know that a "y" is pronounced the closest to a "j" in the English language. In other languages it is pronounced very similar to the Hebrew pronunciation such as my own language which a form of Dutch as well as swedish etc. Etc. In English the "j" is the closest to "y".

But you are again deviating from the issue.  You were promoting yahweh or yehwah while the witnesses have always accepted  jehovah.

While I do accept the are GB are not inspired, I do believe they are guided by Jehovahs spirit. 

50 minutes ago, Witness said:

given ample proof that "Jehovah" is an

And I have given you a video above which has the name of Jehovah in the national archives of Israel seven times in one manuscript - it has the original pointer system in the name "yehovah" which proves this is the correct pronunciation. This manuscript is exhibited together with the oldest manuscript of the Hebrew scriptures. The name with its pointer system was there all along but no-one noticed it before.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Firstly I suppose we should get it straight that it wasn't the GB that decided on the name anyway. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Jehovah     Quote :- 

The form Jehovah was used in the 16th century by many authors, both Catholic and Protestant....

 It appeared in the English Bible in Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (1530), 

But this is my last take on the subject as it's getting pointless just disagreeing on it....

Contrary to what some believe, Jehovah is not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. The name Jehovah is a product of mixing different words and different alphabets of different languages. Due to a fear of accidentally taking God’s name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), the Jews basically quit saying it out loud altogether. Instead, when reading Scripture aloud, the Jews substituted the tetragrammaton YHWH with the word Adonai (“Lord”). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translators substituted Kurios (“Lord”) for the Divine Name. Eventually, the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way in between the consonants of YHWH, thus forming YaHWeH. But this interpolation of vowels does not mean that was how God’s name was originally pronounced. In fact, we aren’t entirely sure if YHWH should have two syllables or three.

Any number of vowel sounds can be inserted within YHWH, and Jewish scholars are as uncertain of the real pronunciation as Christian scholars are. Jehovah is actually a much later (probably 16th-century) variant. The word Jehovah comes from a three-syllable version of YHWH, YeHoWeH. The Y was replaced with a J (although Hebrew does not even have a J sound) and the W with a V, plus the extra vowel in the middle, resulting in JeHoVaH. These vowels are the abbreviated forms of the imperfect tense, the participial form, and the perfect tense of the Hebrew being verb (English is)—thus the meaning of Jehovah could be understood as “He who will be, is, and has been.”

So, what is God’s Name, and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is “YAH-way,” “YAH-weh,” or something similar. The name Yahweh refers to God’s self-existence. Yahweh is linked to how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you.”’” God’s name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent or self-sufficient Being. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton, YHWH.

I would think that even when the Org found out it was wrong, they just couldn't go back on what they had been teaching for so long.  It was such a main teaching that it would have broken them to tell the truth. 

 

[Arauna]

 

I notice the small things wherein jehovah has given direction to his people...... Even if it is right in front of your face you will not see it because your entire personality (from what I see in your writing) is consumed by hate for the GB and JWs....... to the extent that you are even putting your family at risk on the altar to your hate.  

You only use the word father or other derivation. .. not the name yehovah AND REFUSE TO SEE THAT THE GB has been vindicated.

I just typed in " call on name" and a list of scriptures like this one came up:

"Give thanks to Jehovah, call on his name ,Make his deeds known among the peoples!  2 Sing to him, sing."    ........so you do not obey the bible when you refuse to use the name of God and use only the word father instead. Are you  sure you obey the bible? 

Zeph 3:9  the pure language is linked  to the entire earth calling on the name of Jehovah.

Joel 2: 32 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,The survivors whom Jehovah calls...

And jehovah has a 'people' for his name - just turned out the had the name right all along!  Acts 15:14

 

[Arauna]

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

get it straight that it wasn't the GB that decided on the name anyway. 

They GB decided to adopt the name with this pronunciation did they not? .  You are dancing all around the subject without making a point. 

You do not see your own reasoning how ficle it is...... so I leave it at that. 

[Arauna]

On 4/6/2020 at 9:08 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

bunch of slippery yoyos hanging out here! Making

You said it. They go into the past and bring up old stuff to sidestep the issue that the newest information is that the pronunciation is : Yehovah.....in Hebrew... proven beyond doubt by Hebrew manuscripts (one of them the oldest in the world) and it has the points included for the pronunciation.

And we adopted the name with the right pronunciation......jehovahs witnesses,  whether by chance or Jehovah's spirit! 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Arauna " Even if it is right in front of your face you will not see it because your entire personality (from what I see in your writing) is consumed by hate for the GB and JWs....... to the extent that you are even putting your family at risk on the altar to your hate.  "

Firstly I am not consumed by hate for anyone. It's seems strange to me that it is always the JWs on here that tell other people that the other people hate this or that. 

Unfortunately it is a teaching of CCJW that people 'outside the org' are full of hate and are horrible people. 

Very sad really as JWs in general know this is not true, but they get brainwashed into believing it. 

As for my family, my wife has her own personality and FREE WILL. My 25 year old son is now a grown Man, and he also has his own personality and FREE WILL.  Unlike JWs I do not control my wife, or her thoughts and actions. 

My feelings about the GB are simple, they are not fit for purpose. If they are part of the Slave class then they must be that 'evil slave', the ones that beat their fellow slaves. I've given scripture and reasons for saying this previously.  

And as for JWs, I'm not in contact with many now. My feelings are that JWs generally, here in the UK,  do not think for themselves. And when I've asked an elder for his opinion of certain scriptures, he actually says he will have to go and check up on the 'teaching'. So i feel pity for JWs not hate. But of course they will all be judged for their actions when the 'Day' arrives. 

I'm still searching for truth but I know I won't find any here . But here is good for practice, for research, for bringing scripture back to mind. And i do love the differences of opinions. Especially when someone says they are a JW but then says how their opinions differ from the CCJW. 

I haven't quite got the sense of the GB / CCJW advising JWs to do personal Bible study, but then telling those same JWs, not to have different opinion to the GB / Org. 

As you will already know, my opinion is that the Greek Scriptures are for the Slave Class / Anointed to understand properly, not the Domestics / Earthly Class. 

A revelation* by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,a to show his slavesb the things that must shortly take place.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

You said it.

I can deal with someone accusatory. And I can deal with someone stupid. But someone accusatory AND stupid I admit I have a difficult time with. That is largely why I am distancing myself from this particular forum in favor ot the smaller one.

[JW Insider]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:06 PM, Arauna said:

Yehovah.....in Hebrew... proven beyond doubt by Hebrew manuscripts (one of them the oldest in the world) and it has the points included for the pronunciation.

You are exaggerating similar to the way Nehemiah Gordon exaggerates.

Nehemia Gordon has not discovered anything new. What he is doing is pretending that these relatively recent manuscripts are some of the oldest when they are not. He is playing a hyping game, which is a way to get noticed on the Internet these days. Everything that Gordon has found on these Bible manuscripts had already been discussed by Hebrew scholars over the last few hundred years.

And of course, all of the truly ancient Hebrew manuscripts do not have vowel markings. This includes the Dead Sea Scrolls from about 250BC to 68CE. And there are hundreds of instances of the Divine Name in them. Also, of course, the older Hebrew markings on stones, and pottery, jewelry, clay, the "Moabite Stone" [Mesha stele] etc., do not have vowel markings, and some of these go back centuries further. The Christian-era Hebrew/Greek scholars, such as Origen [around 200 CE] took an interest in Hebrew manuscripts, along with the LXX manuscripts, and the pronunciation and representation of YHWH in these manuscripts. There were still no vowel points.

Some inconsistent attempts at vowel pointing started in the 6th century. Yet, even in the most famous manuscript links between the old and the new Masorete manuscripts, we have the Ashkar-Gilson Hebrew Manuscript from the 8th century with no vowel points yet. As you can see below, there is an example of YHWH in the center of the image below, and there are still no vowel points:

The Masoretes started the first useful, consistent vowel pointing system around 850 CE, and the oldest of their manuscripts with vowel pointing come to us in mss from about 950 to the 1100's. And they were still not consistent when it came to vowel pointing YHWH. I copied two examples before when this topic came up, where they sometimes used the vowels that matched the vowels of ELOHIM (God) and usually the vowels that were a closer match for ADONAI (Lord). Gordon simply ignores the ones he doesn't like and pretends to get all excited over the ones that fit his theory, which had already been very well known and dismissed for centuries.

The following statements about Nehemiah Gordon and what he is hyping are not absolutely correct either, but they give the correct idea of the problem:

https://www.snydertalk.com/2018/05/17/17-2018-snydertalk-yahweh-nehemia-gordon-wrong/

Nehemia Gordon is Wrong

The ancient manuscripts that Nehemia Gordon “discovered” aren’t nearly ancient enough.  When the vowel marking process ended in about 1000 AD (1,165 years after rabbis took Yahweh’s Name out of circulation), the scribes preparing the manuscripts followed the Oral Law or the Traditions of the Jews and disguised Yahweh’s Name as the ancient rabbis required.

What Nehemia Gordon “discovered” is evidence of probably the worst mistake anyone has ever made in the history of the world.  He’s contributing to the problem.

Earlier in the article the timeline was made pretty clear:

Look at the Timeline

• In about 165 BC, Yahweh’s Name was taken out of circulation . . . .

• In about 500 AD, the process of creating vowel markings began.

• In about 1000 AD, the vowel marking creation process ended.

About 665 years passed between the time rabbis forbade the use of Yahweh’s Name and the time the vowel marking creation process began.  About 1,165 years passed before the vowel marking creation process ended.  That’s a long time.

 

For reference, there is a good discussion of the Ashkar-Gilson is here. http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_201.pdf

A full discussion needs also to look at the variations in spelling and/or vowel pointing from several of the scrolls coming from the time of transition to vowel pointing:

• AS Ashkar-Gilson Manuscript & London Manuscript, Exo-dus, seventh or eighth-century C.E.
• BS Scroll Bologna University Library, complete Torah, ca.1155–1225 C.E.
• ES Sheet of Torah Scroll, Loewentheil collection, Exodus, tenth or eleventh-century C.E.
• BP Codex British Museum Or. 4445, Pentateuch, late ninth or early tenth-century C.E.
• DP Damascus Pentateuch, late tenth-century C.E.
• GP Firkovitch II.17, Pentateuch, 929–930 C.E.
• AC Aleppo Codex, Tenakh, ca.925–935 C.E.
• LC Leningrad Codex, Tenakh, 1008–1009 C.E.
• SC Sassoon 1053, Tenakh, tenth-century C.E

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Well it seems as if a certain lady on here has been misled then, which is a shame as I'm sure she means well.  

And it seems that Yahweh is correct. 

Christian love to all and I hope you are keeping 'safe'. 

A question though to @JW Insider and to others that believe that Yahweh is correct.  Do you think the CCJW  & Watchtower Soc' should change the name they use for God ?   

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

A question though to @JW Insider and to others that believe that Yahweh is correct.

I don't know that Yahweh is correct. I only agree with the Watchtower publications that say Yahweh is more likely than Yehowah based on Hebrew pronunciation patterns for that particular sequence of consonants. But there are a few other issues at play that would allow for Yahowah, even if less likely. There is evidence that there could have originally been an O sound in the middle, although not emphasized. That would allow for either form to morph from YHWH. It's also possible that evidence for the O sound comes from an early use of the W as the vowel for "O."

From Wikipedia, under Waw (vav):

[Hebrew] Vav can be used as a mater lectionis for an o vowel, in which case it is known as a ḥolam male, which in pointed text is marked as vav with a dot above it. It is pronounced [o̞] (phonemically transcribed more simply as /o/).

Also in other Semitic languages, like Arabic, from Wikipedia:

Wāw is used to represent four distinct phonetic features:

• A consonant, pronounced as a voiced labial-velar approximant /w/, which is the case whenever it is at the beginnings of words, but normally occurs also in the middle or end.

• A long /uː/. The preceding consonant could either have no diacritic or a short-wāw-vowel mark, damma, to aid in the pronunciation by hinting to the following long vowel.

• A long /oː/ In many dialects, as a result of the monophthongization that underwent the diphthong /aw/ in most of the words.

• A part of a diphthong, /aw/. In this case it has no diacritic, but could be marked with a sukun in some traditions. The preceding consonant could either have no diacritic or have fatḥa sign, hinting to the first vowel /a/ in the diphthong.

----------end of WIki quote----

In Hebrew, it can also be pronounced as a "U" in Hebrew, but less likely. This is more obvious in Arabic where people say Osama, or Usama, Koran or Quran, etc.

Interestingly, it's likely that this was not the original pronunciation, but if the W is read like an O then the YHWH = YHOH could have been read as Ya-Hoh or Yah-oh. And there is a lot of evidence in some of the early LXX, and in historical references that Jews were pronouncing the name Yaho in the centuries up to the time of Jesus and perhaps a little beyond that time. Evidence for the O sound comes up in many of the names that Hebrew speakers used, but it often dropped out because it was likely not pronounced as a long vowel. The name Joshua from the OT in the LXX is spelled Yesous (Jesus), and so in the NT Jesus name was the same as Joshua which in the OT could also be written as Yeshua Yehoshuah or Yahoshuah. So there is a possibility that the name YHWH was pronounced Yehoah or Yehowah.

That means that Jehovah could be as good an English pronunciation as any. Changing it to Yahweh could just be seen as pretentious at this point. There are people who say Yeshua today, and it seems pretentious to me, even though it's a more accurate pronunciation.