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Wasn't Jesus' supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?


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On 7/21/2020 at 11:25 AM, Anna said:

BUT, v. 23 talks about those belonging to Christ during his presence, as if his presence is at a different time to when he was resurrected. I suppose it all hangs on when Christ's presence began then (I know you have discussed this a number of time).

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations of royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

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Yes. It looks like this matches up best with the scriptures. I think that "synteleia" and "parousia" refer to the same time period. Synteleia can refer to the end of many things together, similar to a phrase that Peter used when he said "the end of all things has drawn close." Note the plural: (1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close.. . . (1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come. We sometimes think of thi

@4Jah2me a while back you expressed  contempt at the fact that there is a JW only club and mockingly wondered what kind of topics might be discussed there. Well before this topic was moved here, (since it was off topic in the Furuli discussion) I considered making it a topic in the JW only club for the very reason that has become apparent  with your latest comment. In the JW only club, we like to actually discuss scriptures and their application, without inserting child sexual abuse or the imper

I realize I had skipped this question. Revelation 2 and 3 show that various congregations should at all times watch out for false teachings and that they might even go through phases of cleaning out false doctrine, immorality, and increasing their Christian "deeds." This is exactly what Russell and the WTS had tried to do, and it's being done in greater measure all the time. (Revelation 2:18-23) 18 “To the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·tiʹra write: These are the things that the So

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:33 AM, JW Insider said:

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations or royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

I've only been checking in to read posts and for the last couple of days not even that. Although this is off topic here, I still want to pursue this discussion. I did make some notes when I read your post first, but that was several days ago. In any case, It's not everything I want to say, and I have probably missed some things because I haven't had the chance to really think about it properly and do relevant research (it's our CO visit). Anyway, here are some of the questions I have come up with.

I don't have any references right now,  but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time? In other words it wasn't going to be a fanfare for everyone in the whole world. I know it wasn't originally expected in 1914, Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime. And as time progressed it was decided that 1914 had been the year when this happened. (Although that there is a contradiction in itself because it was to be recognized and celebrated WHEN it happened not after the fact).

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?
 

If I understand it correctly these are the two timeline options. I probably got it all wrong so please correct me.

Option A
1.Jesus became king when he was resurrected to heaven in 33 C E. He battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
2. At the same time his invisible presence began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: he will arrive to judge the nations at Armageddon, "where every eye will see him".*

Option B
1. Jesus was made king over the anointed/ congregation in 33 CE.
2.  At the same time his invisible presence  began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: In 1914 he became ruling King and battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
4. He will "arrive" to judge the nations at Armageddon when every eye will see him.

One problem I can see is that when he arrived/will arive (synteleia) it would be a joyous occasion, welcoming the king with fanfare etc. This though would only be a joyous occasion for those who were Jesus's subjects, for Jesus enemies it would mean their end. 

I haven't really written everything down that I wanted to because I am running out of time again.

I would like to have these terms clarified please:

Coming, arriving and presence.

Got to goooo! 🏃‍♀️

 

 

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22 hours ago, Anna said:

but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

No. The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

When Jesus told the disciples that the buildings of the Temple would one day come tumbling down, the disciples immediately knew that this spectacular highly visible event was related to his parousia (visitation/advent/coming). They knew that the very term "parousia" was about the arrival of Jesus Christ in royal power, when the Kingdom of Israel was to be restored. We also know that the disciples had assumed that Jesus would somehow make this happen in his own lifetime and their own lifetime. When Jesus kept saying he would die first, they had trouble understanding.

So when they asked for a sign of his "parousia" and the "synteleia" [ending of things together] they were asking for some kind of advance warning so that they could find safety when their "world" came spectacularly crashing down around.

Jesus warned that some would be saying that Jesus had already arrived even though they couldn't see him at the moment. Jesus therefore warned against listening to anyone who might claim that an invisible parousia had already started. He said not to believe anyone who claimed he had returned but that no one could see him just yet, because the parousia would be like lightning, sudden and brightly visible from one horizon to the other horizon.

(Matthew 24:23-27) 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

Around 1876, Nelson Barbour was telling Charles T. Russell and others: "Look! Here is the Christ." He thought he was going to come visibly like a flash of lightning, but now he believed Jesus was here but invisible. "He is present, but you can't see him. He is here, since October 1874, but effectively hidden in the inner rooms. Barbour and his friends were so anxious to be right about their prediction that Christ would arrive in October 1874, that they simply declared that he was here, even though he hadn't shown up.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [then] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [at the same time], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;. . .

The LEB translation, with full support of the Greek, translates like this:

(1 Thess 4:17, LEB) Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always.

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

Note in the very next verses after the mention of the parousia in 4:15-17 that Thessalonians goes immediately into stating:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight. Paul says the same thing in the second letter:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Notice that it is the parousia that is tied to "our being gathered together to him." But just as Jesus warned, we shouldn't be shaken or deceived by anyone making claims about this parousia as if it is already here, before it is obvious:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Not just those with spiritual insight but the lawless one too is revealed by the manifestation of his parousia. It can't be invisible if it is going to be obvious to those without spiritual insight.

(Revelation 1:7) . . .Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. . . .

(1 Timothy 6:14) . . .observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(2 Timothy 4:8) 8 From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.

Translating the "active participle" as if only in the past, can be misleading. The Greek can just as well refer to his future manifestation and can be translated as follows, which is probably better considering the immediate context:

(2 Timothy 4:8, NET) Finally the crown of righteousness is reserved for me. The Lord, the righteous Judge, will award it to me in that day - and not to me only, but also to all who have set their affection on his appearing.

(Titus 2:12, 13) . . .It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

(1 Corinthians 1:7, 8 ) . . .while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make you firm to the end so that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 1:7) . . .in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being tested by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 4:13) . . .so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during [at] the revelation of his glory.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:1) . . .will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . .  10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, . . . 2 1 However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

(I know we already covered 2 Thess 2:1-2, but it is good to see it in context to more easily see that the parousia, revelation of the Lord Jesus, day of Jehovah, the time when he comes to be glorified, that day, etc., are all the same as the time of the visible revelation/manifestation.)

Also, our current parousia doctrine creates several minor contradictions. For example:

(James 5:7) . . .Be patient then, brothers, until the presence [parousia] of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive.

If the parousia had started in 1914, why would we only show patience UNTIL 1914. The same goes for Jesus saying he would be with us UNTIL the "synteleia." (Matt 28:20).  For example, Rutherford even claimed for many years that the holy spirit was no longer in operation with Rutherford or with the organization, because Jesus had already arrived by 1918, and the holy spirit was only there to fill in the gap until Jesus arrived.

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

I do not agree with this statement.  Only the Christians knew about this prophecy. The Pharisees did not accept Jesus and hence his warnings about the Parousia was not noticed by them. Neither did the Romans know about the prophecy.  Enemies of Jehovah contributed to the fulfillment of the Parousia in Jesus' generation but they did not know about the prophecy...… hence it was not unmistakable to them.  To the Christians when the Romans (disgusting thing) stood in the holy place they recognized it and fled.  Those who did not immediately obey were stuck in the city.  Those of weak faith would have been stuck like all the other Jews that actually all were streaming into Jerusalem for the Passover.  There is no way they saw all the signs otherwise they would not have come into the city for the Passover. The only thing I do agree with is that it was not invisible - the romans coming into the city - otherwise they would not recognize the sign...…  

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9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Only the Christians knew about this prophecy.

True. But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith. . .

The only way around this, is to claim something that the Bible never claims: that the "parousia" is different from "that day," "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven" and "the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones."

The Bible speaks of only one time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones" and that day is sometimes called the parousia.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,. . .

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(Matthew 24:27-37) . . .so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . .30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . . 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

(Mark 13:26, 27) 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

Therefore, the scriptures about the parousia and the day of Jehovah in the previous post still stand, too. The Bible makes no separation of the parousia from the revelation/manifestation of Jesus Christ in that day.

That day, that parousia, comes upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous at the same time:

(Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

(Matthew 24:37, 38) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Notice that the parousia is not paralleled with the days of Noah, but "that day" when Noah entered into the ark. Notice that the day the Son of man is revealed is not paralleled with the days of Lot, but "on the day" that Lot went out of Sodom.

The Bible never separates the revelation/manifestation from the parousia. In fact, the Bible uses the expression "manifestation of his parousia."

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I am glad this has moved to its own topic. I have not read the rest of the comments yet (Arauna) only the first one by JWI.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 24:23-27) 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

I have always taken this scripture to mean that there will be people pointing to visible signs that Jesus is here. Like that he is physically in one particular spot, in the wilderness, or in an inner room...and that there will be many such people, false Christs (and there have been). So in contrast, and in that context, when v. 27 says that his presence will be from one end of the globe to the other, suggests that it could not be a literal physical presence of a person, since no one can be in more that one place at the same time. So therefor we should not be looking for Christ in one particular spot, in the wilderness or somewhere else. But we will see his "manifestation" from one end of the earth to the other. I know this is also WT interpretation, but it makes sense to me. So do you suggest that Christ will travel and greet every single person? (every eye will see him).

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).
So the problem is obviously the  "interruption" part. Where is WT's scriptural basis for that? Although Jesus does not mention an interruption regarding his  presence with his disciples, he says he will be with them till the end, and wherever two or three are gathered in his name he will be with them, but what about the apostasy?  Are there  scriptures that the WT mentions in support of Christ no longer being present with two or three gathered in his name starting after the apostasy all the way to the present time; starting back up again in the 20th century? (I am sorry, I would look it all up but I don't have the time right now, you probably already know which scriptures WT uses to support that idea).

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The visual this gives me is something that I would rather not imagine as it reminds me of creepy scenes in anecdotal videos of people levitating and rising into the sky like balloons. I just cannot imagine seeing Br. Jackson in his suit and tie, (or would he be casual), ascending into the clouds.  Since flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens, and those people will be transformed into spirits, that are invisible, how could then this whole scenario be visible? Of course I definitely agree with Armageddon being very visible, but not everyone could see the literal Jesus at the same time. That would be a physically impossibility, but all will know it is Jesus acting. Isn't that what is meant by every eye will see him?

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

So obviously the  presence of Christ with his disciples from 33 CE onward is different from the presence at the end, since that presence will be the Judgement day/lords day/day of Jehovah etc. basically Armageddon. And this presence will be a literal manifestation as is mentioned by 2 Thessalonians 2:8  "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]".

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight.

Yes, I see that the parousia is tied in with not only being gathered to him (I am assuming that means in heaven, therefore the "rapture") but also to the day of Jehovah/Judgement day/Lords day/ Armageddon when those who suffer destruction will "see him" in the sense that they will know it is Jesus who is destroying the wicked.

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea

So the WT sees it that Jesus' invisible  presence began in 1914, but we could also say it began in 33 CE because Jesus said he would be (invisibly) present with his followers right up to the end. That bit seems clear enough. In both versions his presence is associated with him becoming King (both 1914 or 33 CE).

Now to his presence being visible and felt in a literal way because he is coming to judge, that would be Armageddon.

The biggest discrepancy I can see, that you highlighted,  is that Jesus said he will be with his disciples till the end, which means throughout the time from 33 CE until now. Which means without a break. The fact that the Bible students started searching and "seeing" Jesus in the 20th Century does not necessarily mean that Jesus had  left off being with anybody (two or three) until that time. In fact we used to teach, and still do, that there have always been individuals who were anointed throughout the ages since the first century. I suppose this is because Jesus did not say he would take a break and come back at a later time. But then we do have those scriptures which point out that big gap with regard to true Christians....the wheat and the weeds, growing together, until the harvest, when true Christians as a group would be identified. When did that harvest start? WT says in the 20th century. 

I'm sorry, I know I have jumped around a lot, and repeated myself. I just put down my thoughts as they came to me and had no time to organize anything. I just copied and pasted. 

 

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the reve

Yes - they felt the effect when the "disgusting thing" was right at the gates of Jerusalem and they had no food. agreed.  But they did not 'understand' the Parousia or the time to flee because they did not accept the new scriptures. The first time the Romans left when Vespasian went back to fight for his rule - ALL Christians (only Christians) understood the SIGN - the others DID NOT!!!

The scripture quoted in Thess above is not about the specific tribulation suffered in Jerusalem - no matter how much you try to give that meaning to the words.  One cannot throw all scripture that talks about tribulation together like in a hodgepodge without context.  The Christians were the only ones who knew how to look out for the signs to flee.   We are now ready to look out for similar SIGNS.

When the disgusting thing (UN) is in place we will know it and see it.  Will the rest of the world see what we see?  Will expect the UN to suddenly turn against all religions and then stand in the "holy place' for eminent destruction?  NO. They will be caught off guard just like those people who in their thousands went into Jerusalem for the final Passover in 70CE.

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@JW Insider(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? 

Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

 

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Technically, Bible Students never expected an invisible return of Christ, either in 1874 or 1914. It was only around 1876 that Russell "learned" that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. Even in 1916 when Russell died, he and other Bible Students still thought Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. So no one was expecting an invisible return in 1914 either. The official "parousia" date was still 1874 until about 1943. By then, of course, it was too late to "expect" Jesus in 1914.

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Close enough, but still not exactly, of course. In 1879, when the Watch Tower magazine was still pointing to 1881 as the date for their resurrection or "rapture," the change from a physical to a spiritual body would be necessarily "visible" in the sense that "Bible Students" ** believed that they would disappear from the earth, either leaving behind a "dead" physical body, or nothing. Thousands would see the glorious manifestation of the Christ by October 1881 with their new spiritual eyes (and spiritual bodies) in heaven. But this would also leave behind either thousands of dead bodies, or thousands of missing persons. Hard to keep something like that hidden.

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?

Apparently this is Paul saying that the crown is reserved as a reward for "that day." In other words, in that future day, the "judgment day." I don't see how Paul, around 60 CE could say that a crown is now reserved to be given him as a reward on a day back in 33 CE.

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out. I made it a point to bring it up with all the pioneers and young baptized persons in service. And this was in two distant parts of the country, as I spend time in my parents' congregation, too. It turns out you can ask most pioneers and 20-year-baptized Witnesses when was the first resurrection, and most will still say 1914/1918/1919. Then if you immediately follow up with "When was Paul resurrected?" they think it's a trick question and go back to the first century, often at his death in prison in the 60's CE. It throws off elders, too, because nobody usually hears the question put in practical terms like: "When was the Apostle Paul resurrected?"

I think people on this forum would give a more accurate sense of the Watchtower's teaching than most people in our congregation.

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night. But since no one knew the day or hour, and it could be immediately after he wrote this, or thousands of years in the future, he also discussed what would happen if he happened to die before the parousia.

Paul thought all anointed were in union with Christ, even the "lowliest" of them:

(1 Corinthians 12:12-26) . . .For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit. 14 For, indeed, the body is made up not of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am no part of the body,” that does not make it no part of the body. ...19 If they were all the same member, where would the body be? 20 But now they are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” or again, the head cannot say to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, . . . Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, who would then be changed together, at the same time, so they could all meet the Lord in the air, together.  

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

Of course. Anything is possible. Jehovah sees all these persons as alive, in the "book of life," and knows what their "heart" is still "speaking," although not physically alive:

(Revelation 6:9-11) . . .I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

Similar to how Abel's blood was crying out to Jehovah from the ground.

(Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.

We are not the judge of who ends up where, whether heaven or earth. Even those who are "sure" they are anointed and have been told that this means they will be in heaven instead of earth. I listened to a president of the Watch Tower Society in the final year of his life sometimes praying about how much he would miss the earth when he died. Jesus mentioned those who would be seated in the back and called up to the front by him. 

(Matthew 22:8-10) . . .The marriage feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those dining.

(Matthew 25:10-12) . . .The virgins who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward, the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, Sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you.’

(Luke 14:7-11) . . .He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited. 9 Then the one who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have your place.’ Then you will proceed with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, so that when the man who invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

The first shall be last and the last first. So all we know is that Jehovah knows how to give good gifts to his children. He knows how to fulfill the desires of our hearts. His thoughts are higher than ours, and we do not know ourselves as well as Jehovah knows us.

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem. There are plenty of things we can't say for sure, and there are intriguing scriptures that might provide some things to think about.

(Matthew 11:11, 12) . . .Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.

(Hebrews 11:8-10) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

(Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

(Luke 16:22) 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.. . .

(Acts 2:29-34) . . .Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. . . . . 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,. . .

(Matthew 22:31, 32) 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”

(Matthew 17:3, 4) . . .And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.”

 

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(I wrote a long comment and must have hit the wrong key and lost it all GRRRRRRR ) 

@JW Insider  I am more confused than ever now.  quote :-

'Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out.'

I always though that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

Quote :-

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night.

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, 

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed. 

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

I presume the 'bosom position of Abraham' is the common grave of mankind ? That is most likely where i will be before ten years have passed. 

 

 

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    • By JW Insider
      Even before C.T.Russell was born, commentaries on Bible prophecy included  dozens of potential dates. Nearly 200 years ago, a couple of them even included 1914 as potentially significant time period. The "1914 presence" doctrine, however, is only about 75 years old.
      All the ideas behind the Watch Tower's version of the 1914 doctrine have already been discussed for decades now, and all of them, so far, have been shown to be problematic from a Scriptural point of view. Since the time that the doctrine generally took its current shape in 1943, the meanings and applications of various portions of Matthew 24 and 25 have already been changed, and the timing of various prophesied events and illustrations have changed. Most recently, the meaning and identification of the "faithful and discreet slave" has changed. And the definition of "generation" has changed about half-a-dozen times. This doesn't mean that the current understandings are impossible, of course, only that it has become less likely from the point of view of reason and reasonableness.
      Besides, for most of the years of teaching this doctrine, we have had the flexibility of extending the "1914 generation" from a possible 40 years, up to 70, then 75, then 80 years. And this has been applied to teenagers who saw 1914, 10-year-olds who saw 1914, then even newborns who saw 1914. With every one of these options already tried and stretched to their limits, we finally were forced to convert the meaning of generation from its most common meanings and give it a new "strained" meaning that has no other Biblical parallel. (See Exodus 1:6; Matthew 1:17; 16:4; 23:36; Luke 11:50)
      But that flexibility is still seen as the last reason for hope that the Watch Tower Society might have still been correct in hanging on to 1914. Since the Bible says that a lifespan is 70 or 80 years and 1914 + 80 = 1994, the "generation" doctrine in its original form (1943) could remain stable until about 1994. Of course, a lifespan could technically reach to 120 years or more, and Gen 6:3 even gives vague support to the idea that the "1914 generation" could last 120 years, until 2034.
      The current alternative solution is to make the generation out of the length of two lifespans, which technically could be double 120 years, or nearly 240 years from 1914. That would have had the potential to reach to the year 2154 (1914+240) except for the caveat that it can, by its new definition, only refer to anointed persons who discerned the sign in 1914 and whose lives overlapped (technically, by as little as one second) with the lifespan of another anointed person representing the second group. If persons from each group don't really discern their own "anointing" until age 20, for example, this would effectively remove 40 years from the overall maximum. 1914+120-20+120-20 = 2114. We could also assume a possible lifespan of more than 120 years, but otherwise, the new two-lifespan generation could potentially make the generation last 200 years. This "technical maximum" is not promoted currently, because for now we look at examples like Fred Franz who was part of that original generation already anointed and who saw the sign, and the typical example of an anointed brother who was apparently "anointed" prior to Franz' death in 1992 would be someone like Governing Body member, Brother Sanderson, who was born in 1965, baptized in 1975, and was already a "special pioneer" in 1991. His is currently 52.
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      All evidence shows the 1914 date is wrong when trying to base it on the destruction of Jerusalem. (Daniel 1:1; 2 Chron 36:1-22; Jer 25:8-12; Zech 1:12, 7:4; Ezra 3:10-13) Paul said that Jesus sat at God's right hand in the first century and that he already began ruling as king at that time. (1 Cor 15:25) Jesus said not to be fooled by the idea that wars and rumors of wars would be the start of a "sign" (Matt 24:4,5) Jesus said that the "parousia" would be as visible as lightning (Matt 24:27). He spoke against people who might say he had returned but was currently not visible. (Matt 24:23-26) Jesus said that his "parousia" would come as a surprise to the faithful, not that they would discern the time of the parousia decades in advance. (Matt 24:36-42) Jesus said that the kingdom would not be indicated by "signs" (Luke 17:20, almost any translation except NWT in this case) The "synteleia" (end of all things together) refers to a concluding event, not an extended period of time (Matt 28:20) Jesus was already called ruler, King and even "King of Kings" in the first century. (1 Tim 6:15, Heb 7:2,17; Rev 1:5; 17:14) Wicked, beastly King Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and humiliation does not represent Jesus as the "lowliest one of mankind." (Heb 1:5,6; 2:10,11; Daniel 4:23-25; cf. Heb 2:7; 1 Pet 3:17,18) The demise of a Gentile kingdom cannot rightly represent the time of the rise of the Gentile kingdoms (Daniel 4:26,27) The Gentile kings did not meet their demise in 1914. (Rev 2:25,26) The time assigned to the Gentile Times that Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:24 is already given as 3.5 times, not 7 times (Revelation 11:2,3) The Devil was already brought down from "heaven" in the first century. (1 John 2:14,15; 1 Pet 5:8; Luke 10:18; Heb 2:14) The Bible says that the "last days" began in the first century. (Acts 2:14-20; 2 Tim 3:1-17; 1 Peter 3:3-5; Heb 1:2, almost any translation except NWT in this case.)
    • By JW Insider
      There seems to be be several ways to read Matthew 24 (and parallel accounts in Mark 13 and Luke 21). This has been noted by many Bible commentaries through the years, and even C. T. Russell admits some things about Matthew 24 that might surprise a lot of Witnesses today.
      The primary discussions about Matthew 24 revolve around the question of whether it was ONLY about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., or primarily about the final Great Tribulation on the whole earth, or was it about BOTH judgment events.  (Even if this were primarily about 70 C.E., of course, it would still provide principles to guide Christians in every era and generation, especially about the expectation of the judgment event. -- 2 Tim 3:16; 1 Cor 10:11)
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      If we assume that the primarily fulfillment of Matthew 24 was intended for the final generation, then the secondary discussion is about whether we have correctly understood what Jesus meant with respect to the sign, the parousia, the conclusion, the generation, etc. So, that's the basic discussion being proposed here: that we look carefully at Matthew 24 and see if we have not perhaps tried to fit unlikely definitions of words so that we could make our specific doctrine fit.
      Of course, it is quite proper to look at unlikely definitions of words if the meaning derived becomes the only possible way to understand a passage and the only way in which it properly fits the context and related scriptures. But what if the more likely definitions of each of the words also produces an overall meaning that fits just as well with the context and other scripture? What if accepting the more likely definitions of words in the chapter resulted in an even BETTER fit overall for the rest of the scriptures? What if it were seen that trying to make a doctrine out of the unlikely definitions actually created scriptural contradictions?
      What I'd propose is that we try to let scripture explain scripture wherever possible and then try to give an honest appraisal of whether or not our "special definitions" we have infused into the meaning of several words in the chapter really makes more sense than the more common definitions of these words.  We could start with general ideas that we can all agree on (hopefully) and then check those ideas as either more or less likely to fit the ideas created from other parts of the chapter that depend on special definitions. I think this will help us evaluate whether we have built a doctrine upon the more likely or the less likely meaning of the words that Jesus used.
    • By Jack Ryan
      What is our official definition of "parousia" found in Matthew 24:3?



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    • Eric Ouellet

      RAPPEL DE JEHOVAH
       
      Aleph
      Parfait est mon chemin 
      Marche dans la voix de Dieu
      Cherche moi de tout ton coeur
      Garde mon témoignage, tu seras heureux.
      Oppose toi au mal
      Marche dans la voix de Dieu
      Observe ma volonté
      L'abîme de la honte tu ne connaîtras
      Mes justes lois 
      Instruit ton coeur en ma droiture.
      Aime moi de tout ton coeur,
      de toute ton esprit, de toute ton âme et de toute ta force vitale. (Souffle de vie)
      Je te rendrai grâce
      Laisse toi entièrement
      à ce que je te dis 
      D'OBSERVER
      TELLE DOIT ÊTRE TA VOLONTÉ
      Beth
      Écoute ma parole
      Garde pur ton chemin
      telle un enfant de Dieu.
      Ne t'écarte point de mes commandements
      Cherche moi de tout ton coeur
      Ne point faillir en toi
      La promesse que je t'ai dis 
      D'OBSERVER
      De tout ton coeur 
      Apprend ma volonté
      Béni seras -tu.
      Le jugement de ta bouche 
      Soit toute énuméré de mes lèvres.
      Que toutes richesses
      Jubiles
      Dans les témoignages de ma parole
      Regarde mon chemin que je t'ai donné 
      Médite sur mes préceptes
      N'oublie pas ma lois
      tes délices
      Tu les trouveras en fesant ma volonté
      Gimel
      Observe ma parole
      tu vivras
      Sois bon envers autrui
      Merveille est ma voie
      Regarde
      Ouvre tes yeux
      Ne cache point mes commandements
      Car un étranger de la terre tu seras
      En tout temps suit mon jugement
      Si tu le désires
      Que mes yeux se tourne vers toi.
      Reste et guide ta vie sur mes normes divine.
      Car t'en égarer tu seras maudit.
      Les suivres te rendront parfait
      Garde mon témoignage
      ainsi
      Tu ne connaîtras le mépris
      Médite sur ma volonté
      Ne parle jamais contre moi
      Tu deviendras un homme parfait.
      Mes conseilles met les dans ton coeur
      De tout mon témoignage
      Tu vivras tout les trésors de la vie.
      Dalèt
      Vivifie toi en moi 
      Car ton âme est collé à la poussière
      Apprend mon adage
      Énumère ma loi
      Je te répondrai
      Médite sur mes desseins
      Tu comprendras mes préceptes
      Relève toi en ma droiture
      Ton âme ne connaîtra le chagrin
      Grâce à ma loi 
      Tu te détourneras de la voie du mensonge
      Conforme est ma loi 
      choisi la voie de JEHOVAH. (YHWH)
      Guide tes actions vers ma justice
      Immerge toi dans ma connaissance 
      Élargi ton coeur et marche dans la voie 
      De mes commandements

      Heureux ceux qui garde le chemin,
      la voie de mon salut.
      Enseigne toi, La voie de l'univers celle de ma sainte Parole.
      Observe de tout ton coeur
      Garde en toi 
      Tu comprendras, là ton cheminement
      Guide toi au chemin de ma parole
      Ne guide ton coeur vers le gain de ce système de choses.
      Fléchis ton coeur et vivifie toi en mon royaume.
      De ma parole
      Libère tes yeux de l'illusion
      Craint le Dieu Très Haut
      Tiens tes promesses telle un fidèle serviteur
      Que mes lois soit le bienvenu en toi 
      ainsi
      Tu seras libéré de toutes insultes
      Vivifie toi! Dans ma justice
      Béni seras tu!
      Désirs mes préceptes
      Telle doit être ta volonté
      zayin
      Garde les promesses qui viennent de ton coeur
      Ton salut est en mon dessin
      Amour du Dieu Très Haut
      Garde ma parole
      Aucune riposte et insulte est ma Parole.
      Espère en ma promesse et en mon royaume
      Guide ta bouche vers la parole de la vérité.
      Toujour et à jamais
      Sans relâche
      Médite sur ma parole que Je t'ai donné
      Cherche mes préceptes
      Engage ta démarche dans ton coeur
      J'élargirai ta vie
      Ne sois acerbe en ma parole
      Quelle devienne un délice à ton palais.
      Médite en ma volonté
      Aime mon commandement
      Ouvre les mains, Je te bénirai
      TAV
      Fonde ton espoir en ma volonté
      Deviens mon serviteur
      Rappelle toi de ma parole
      Vivifie toi !En ma Sagesse
      Je te délivrerai de ceux qui ton outragé
      Reste sur la voie de ma loi
      Console toi par la prière et la méditation venant de tout ton être.
      Ma parole te soutiendra dans les moments difficiles de ta vie.
      Reste dans le chemin que je t'ai donné.
      Que ta colère garde l'amour en ma volonté
      Je te délivrerai de ton impureté.
      Préserve le coeur d'enfant que je t'ai donné
      Sois ferme dans ton coeur
      Louange mon Nom pour toujour.
      Observe ma loi dans tout l'univers de ton être
      De cette volonté, ton âme s'illumineras
      Dans la nuit
      Je me souviendrai de ton nom.
      Garde en toi mes préceptes et souviens toi de mon Nom.
      Elle sera ta délivrance éternelle.
      AINSI TU CONNAÎTRAS MA PROMESSE DE VIVRE POUR TOUJOUR, AU PARADIS.
      Amen
      YHWH (JEHOVAH)
      Erico

      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      Apprenons à craindre Jéhovah
      “ La crainte de Jéhovah est le début de la sagesse. ” — PROVERBES 9:10.

      IL FUT un temps où dire de quelqu’un craignait Dieu était un compliment. Beaucoup jugent aujourd’hui désuète et illogique l’idée de craindre Dieu. " Pourquoi craindre Dieu s’il est amour?" s’étonnent-ils. C’est que la crainte est à leurs yeux un sentiment forcément négatif, voire paralysant. Or, la crainte de Dieu, la vraie, est bien autre chose que de la peur et, comme nous allons le voir, elle ne se résume pas à un sentiment.
       La Bible présente la crainte de Dieu sous un jour positif (Isaïe 11:3). Craindre Dieu, c’est éprouver envers lui un profond respect et désirer vivement ne pas lui déplaire (Psaume 115:11). C’est aussi accepter ses normes morales et s’y conformer strictement, appliquer dans notre vie ses critères du bien et du mal. Un ouvrage de référence indique que cette crainte salutaire exprime “ un rapport à Dieu, une disposition d’esprit dominante, qui incite à se conduire avec sagesse et à rejeter le mal sous toutes ses formes ”. La Bible dit d’ailleurs que “ la crainte de Jéhovah est le début de la sagesse ”. — Proverbes 9:10.
      La crainte de Dieu influe sur de nombreux domaines de l’existence. Outre la sagesse, elle favorise la joie, la paix, la prospérité, la longévité, l’espoir, la confiance (Psaume 2:11 ; Proverbes 1:7 ; 10:27 ; 14:26 ; 22:4 ; 23:17, 18 ; Actes 9:31). Elle est étroitement liée à la foi et à l’amour. Pour tout dire, elle touche tous les aspects de nos relations avec Dieu et avec les humains (Deutéronome 10:12 ; Job 6:14 ; Hébreux 11:7). Craindre Dieu, enfin, c’est avoir la ferme conviction que notre Père céleste se soucie de nous personnellement et qu’il est disposé à pardonner nos transgressions (Psaume 130:4). Il n’y a donc qu’aux pécheurs non repentants que Dieu devrait inspirer de la terreur. — Hébreux 10:26-31.
      APPRENONS À CRAINDRE DIEU
      Puisqu’il est indispensable de le craindre pour prendre de sages décisions et recevoir ses bénédictions, comment "apprendre à craindre Jéhovah"
      dans le bon sens du terme (Deutéronome 17:19) ? De nombreux exemples d’hommes et de femmes qui craignaient Dieu ont été consignés dans les Écritures “ pour notre instruction ”. (Romains 15:4.) Intéressons-nous à la vie de l’un de ces personnages, le roi David.
      Saül, le premier roi d’Israël, avait la crainte du peuple, mais pas la crainte de Dieu. Cela lui a valu d’être rejeté par Jéhovah (1 Samuel 15:24-26). David, lui, était un homme qui craignait vraiment Dieu ; sa vie et son intimité avec Jéhovah en témoignent. Les nombreuses nuits à la belle étoile qu’il avait passées dans sa jeunesse à faire paître les moutons de son père l’avaient certainement aidé à comprendre ce qu’est la crainte de Jéhovah (1 Samuel 16:11). De l’immense univers, il n’avait contemplé qu’une infime partie, mais cela lui avait suffi pour saisir l’essentiel : Dieu mérite respect et adoration. “ Quand je vois tes cieux, les œuvres de tes doigts, la lune et les étoiles que tu as préparées, écrira-t-il plus tard, qu’est-ce que le mortel pour que tu penses à lui, et le fils de l’homme tiré du sol pour que tu t’occupes de lui ? ” — Psaume 8:3, 4.
      Il était normal que David soit impressionné quand il comparait sa petitesse à l’immensité des cieux étoilés. Mais, loin de l’effrayer, cette connaissance le portait à louer Jéhovah. “ Les cieux proclament la gloire de Dieu, a-t-il écrit ; et l’œuvre de ses mains, l’étendue l’annonce. ” (Psaume 19:1). Ce profond respect le rapprochait de Jéhovah ; il lui donnait envie d’apprendre ses voies parfaites et de les suivre. Percevez-vous les sentiments qui l’habitaient quand il chantait ce psaume : “ Tu es grand et tu fais des choses prodigieuses ; tu es Dieu, toi seul. Instruis-moi de ta voie, ô Jéhovah ! Je marcherai dans ta vérité. Unifie mon cœur pour craindre ton nom. ” — Psaume 86:10, 11.
      Quand les Philistins ont envahi le pays d’Israël, leur champion, Goliath, a provoqué les Israélites du haut de ses trois mètres. " Envoyez donc quelqu’un m’affronter en combat singulier ! les narguait-il. S’il me bat, nous serons vos serviteurs. " (1 Samuel 17:4-10). Saül et toute son armée étaient terrifiés. Mais pas David. S’il devait craindre quelqu’un, c’était Jéhovah, et non un homme, si fort soit-il. “ Je viens vers toi avec le nom de Jéhovah des armées, a-t-il lancé à Goliath. [...] Et toute cette assemblée saura que ce n’est ni par l’épée ni par la lance que Jéhovah sauve réellement, car à Jéhovah appartient la bataille. ” Grâce à Jéhovah, une fronde et une pierre ont suffi à David pour abattre le géant. — 1 Samuel 17:45-47.
      Il peut arriver que nous nous trouvions devant des obstacles ou des ennemis aussi intimidants que ceux qu’a dû affronter David. Que faire alors ? Imiter David et d’autres fidèles du passé en s’armant de la crainte de Dieu. La crainte de Dieu l’emporte sur la crainte de l’homme. À ses compatriotes en butte à l’opposition, le fidèle Nehémia a adressé cette exhortation : “ N’ayez pas peur à cause d’eux. Souvenez-vous de Jéhovah le Grand et le Redoutable. ” (Nehémia 4:14). C’est parce qu’ils avaient son soutien que David, Nehémia et d’autres ont réussi à faire ce que Jéhovah attendait d’eux. Nous le pourrons également si nous craignons Dieu.
      Après celle sur Goliath, Jéhovah a accordé d’autres victoires à David. Jaloux, Saül a tenté de tuer le jeune homme, d’abord dans un geste de colère, puis par des moyens détournés, enfin en mobilisant toute une armée contre lui. Même si David avait reçu l’assurance qu’il serait roi, pendant des années il a dû fuir, se battre, et attendre le moment fixé par Jéhovah. Dans toutes ces situations, il ne s’est jamais départi de sa crainte du vrai Dieu. — 1 Samuel 18:9, 11, 17 ; 24:2.
      À un moment donné, David s’est réfugié auprès d’Akish, le roi de Gath, ville philistine d’où était originaire Goliath (1 Samuel 21:10-15). Les serviteurs d’Akish l’ont dénoncé comme ennemi. Comment a-t-il réagi à cette situation périlleuse ? Il s’est confié à Jéhovah de tout son cœur (Psaume 56:1-4, 11-13). Il s’est finalement sorti du guêpier en simulant la démence, mais il était bien conscient de devoir son salut à Jéhovah, qui avait béni son stratagème. David a prouvé qu’il craignait vraiment Dieu en plaçant toute sa confiance en lui. — Psaume 34:4-6, 9-11.
      À l’exemple de David, nous montrerons que nous craignons Dieu en ayant confiance en sa promesse de nous aider dans les épreuves. “ Roule ta voie sur Jéhovah, compte sur lui, et c’est lui qui agira ”, a affirmé David (Psaume 37:5). Cela ne veut pas dire qu’il faut mettre nos problèmes entre les mains de Jéhovah sans rien faire d’autre qu’attendre son intervention. David ne s’est pas contenté de prier et de voir venir. Il a cherché une solution à son problème en utilisant les capacités physiques et intellectuelles dont Jéhovah l’avait doté. Pour autant, il ne pensait pas que ses efforts d’humain suffiraient. Cette façon de voir devrait aussi être la nôtre. Faisons tout ce qui est en notre pouvoir, puis laissons Jéhovah se charger du reste. Cela étant, il est fréquent que nous ne puissions rien faire d’autre que compter sur Jéhovah. C’est là que la crainte de Dieu revêt un caractère très personnel. Combien est réconfortante cette réflexion de David : “ L’intimité avec Jéhovah appartient à ceux qui le craignent. ” — Psaume 25:14.
      Il s’agit donc de ne pas banaliser nos prières et nos relations avec Dieu. Lorsque nous nous ‘ avançons ’ vers Jéhovah, nous devons “ croire qu’il est, et qu’il devient celui qui récompense ceux qui le cherchent réellement ”. (Hébreux 11:6 ; Jacques 1:5-8.) Et quand il vient à notre aide, il nous faut, conformément au conseil de l’apôtre Paul, ‘ nous montrer reconnaissants ’. (Colossiens 3:15, 17.) Ne ressemblons jamais à ceux dont un chrétien oint expérimenté a dit : “ Ils prennent Dieu pour une sorte de garçon de café. Ils aimeraient qu’il réponde à un claquement de doigts dès qu’ils ont besoin de quelque chose, et qu’il disparaisse dès qu’ils ont eu ce qu’ils voulaient. ” Où est leur crainte de Dieu ?
      Le fait que Jéhovah l’ait secouru a augmenté la confiance et la crainte que David éprouvait envers lui (Psaume 31:22-24). Trois fois, cependant, David a mis notablement sa crainte de Dieu entre parenthèses, ce qui a eu des conséquences tragiques. La première fois, c’est quand il a décidé de faire transporter l’arche de l’alliance à Jérusalem sur un chariot, et non sur les épaules des Lévites comme le prescrivait la Loi. Ouzza, qui conduisait le chariot, a saisi l’Arche pour l’empêcher de tomber. Dieu l’a fait mourir sur le champ pour cet “ acte d’irrévérence ”. Certes, Ouzza avait commis un péché grave, mais c’est bien David qui, pour n’avoir pas respecté la Loi divine, était responsable de ce drame. Craindre Dieu suppose que l’on fasse les choses comme lui l’entend. — 2 Samuel 6:2-9 ; Nombres 4:15 ; 7:9.
      Une autre fois, sous l’impulsion de Satan, David a procédé au dénombrement des hommes de guerre en Israël (1 Chroniques 21:1). Là encore, il a cessé momentanément de craindre Dieu, ce qui a coûté la vie à 70 000 de ses compatriotes. Bien qu’il se soit repenti devant Jéhovah, lui et le peuple ont beaucoup souffert en la circonstance. — 2 Samuel 24:1-16
      C’est aussi parce qu’il avait oublié sa crainte de Dieu que David a couché avec Bath-Shéba, la femme d’Ouriya. David savait qu’il était mal, non seulement de commettre l’adultère, mais aussi de désirer la femme d’un autre (Exode 20:14, 17). Tout a commencé quand il a aperçu Bath-Shéba qui se baignait. La crainte de Dieu lui commandait de détourner son regard immédiatement et de maîtriser ses pensées. Mais il a manifestement ‘ continué à regarder ’, si bien que la passion l’a emporté sur sa crainte de Dieu (Matthieu 5:28 ; 2 Samuel 11:1-4). David a oublié que Jéhovah devait être présent dans tous les domaines de sa vie. — Psaume 139:1-7.
      De son adultère avec Bath-Shéba est né un fils. Peu après, Jéhovah a envoyé le prophète Nathân dénoncer le péché de David. Retrouvant la crainte de Dieu en même temps que la raison, celui-ci s’est repenti. Il a supplié Jéhovah de ne pas le rejeter et de ne pas lui retirer son esprit saint (Psaume 51:7, 11). Jéhovah lui a pardonné et a atténué le châtiment, mais il ne lui a pas épargné toutes les conséquences de ses actes. Le fils de David est mort ; les malheurs se sont succédé dans sa famille. Quel prix à payer pour avoir momentanément fait abstraction de la crainte de Dieu ! — 2 Samuel 12:10-14 ; 13:10-14 ; 15:14.
      Aujourd’hui de même, ne pas craindre Dieu dans le domaine de la moralité peut avoir des conséquences graves et durables. Imaginez la douleur de cette jeune femme qui découvre que son mari chrétien l’a trompée lors d’un déplacement professionnel à l’étranger. Choquée, anéantie par le chagrin, elle enfouit son visage dans ses mains et pleure toutes les larmes de son corps. Combien de temps faudra-t-il au mari infidèle pour regagner la confiance et le respect de sa femme ? Des situations aussi pénibles peuvent être évitées grâce à la crainte de Dieu. — 1 Corinthiens 6:18.
      Satan détruit les valeurs morales de la société humaine les unes après les autres, et il cherche particulièrement à corrompre les vrais chrétiens. Pour ce faire, il exploite le chemin le plus direct vers le cœur et l’esprit : nos sens, avec une prédilection pour l’ouïe et la vue (Éphésiens 4:17-19). Comment réagissez-vous quand, involontairement, vous vous trouvez exposé à des images ou à des paroles obscènes, ou encore en présence d’individus immoraux ?
      Voyez le cas d’André. Cet ancien et père de famille est médecin dans un pays d’Europe. Quand il était de garde de nuit à l’hôpital, des collègues féminines avaient pris l’habitude d’épingler sur son oreiller des mots doux ornés de petits cœurs pour l’inviter à coucher avec elles. André s’interdisait résolument d’accorder la moindre pensée à ces avances. Mieux, pour se soustraire à cet environnement malsain, il a changé d’établissement. Sa crainte de Dieu s’est révélée sage et lui a valu des bénédictions, puisqu’il effectue aujourd’hui une partie de ses activités au siège des Témoins de Jéhovah de son pays.
      Troquer nos précieuses relations avec Jéhovah contre quelque chose auquel nous n’avons pas droit : voilà où nous risquons d’en arriver en cultivant de mauvaises pensées (Jacques 1:14, 15). Si nous craignons Jéhovah, en revanche, nous nous tiendrons éloignés — et même nous nous écarterons délibérément — des gens, des lieux, des activités ou des divertissements qui pourraient nous faire baisser notre garde (Proverbes 22:3). Quel que soit l’inconvénient ou le sacrifice que cela implique, il n’est rien à côté de la perte de la faveur divine (Matthieu 5:29, 30). La crainte de Dieu nous commande de ne jamais nous exposer intentionnellement à quoi que ce soit d’immoral — à commencer par la pornographie sous toutes ses formes —, mais aussi de faire en sorte que nos yeux “ passent sans s’arrêter à la vue de ce qui n’est que néant ”. Soyons convaincus que Jéhovah, alors, nous ‘ gardera en vie ’ et nous donnera tout ce dont nous avons réellement besoin. — Psaume 84:11 ; 119:37.
       Assurément, c’est toujours faire preuve de sagesse que de laisser la crainte de Dieu dicter nos actions. C’est aussi la source du vrai bonheur (Psaume 34:9)

      · 1 reply
    • T Naidoo  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      Please email me the  Pure worship scripture via email tennyson@capemedia.co.za please I still have a problemdownloading the info. 
      Thank you
      Tennyson Naidoo
      · 1 reply
    • Eric Ouellet

      Prière de Moïse qui nous apprend un message important pour les enfants de Dieu de nos jours.
       
      Ô Jéhovah, tu as été notre demeure de génération en génération.
      Avant que les montagnes soient nées
      ou que tu aies donné naissance à la terre et au sol productif,
      depuis toujours et pour toujours, tu es Dieu.
      Tu fais retourner le mortel à la poussière ;
      tu dis : « Vous, fils des hommes, retournez à la poussière. »
      Car, à tes yeux, mille ans sont comme le jour d’hier quand il est passé,
      comme une veille pendant la nuit.
      Tu emportes les humain ; ils deviennent comme un instant de sommeil.
      Au matin, ils sont comme l’herbe qui germe.
      Le matin, elle fleurit et se renouvelle,
      mais le soir, elle se flétrit et se dessèche.
      Oui, nous sommes consumés par ta colère
      et terrifiés par ta fureur.
      Tu mets nos fautes devant toi ;
      à la lumière de ton visage, nos secrets sont dévoilés.
      Nos jours déclinent à cause de ta fureur ;
      nos années s’achèvent tel un murmure.
      La durée de notre vie est de 70 ans,
      ou de 80 ans si l’on est particulièrement robuste.
      Mais elle est remplie de malheur et de chagrin ;
      elle passe vite, et nous nous envolons.
      Qui peut sonder la puissance de ta colère ?
      Ta fureur est aussi grande que la crainte qui t’est due.
      Apprends-nous à compter nos jours
      pour que nous puissions acquérir un cœur sage.
      Reviens, ô Jéhovah ! Jusqu’à quand cela va-t-il durer ?
      Aie pitié de tes serviteurs.
       
      "Au matin, rassasie-nous de ton amour fidèle,
      pour que nous puissions crier de joie et nous réjouir tous les jours de notre vie.
      Réjouis-nous pendant autant de jours que ceux où tu nous as affligés,
      pendant autant d’années que celles où nous avons connu le malheur.
      Que tes serviteurs voient ton action
      et que leurs fils voient ta splendeur.
      Que la faveur de Jéhovah notre Dieu soit sur nous !
      Puisses-tu faire réussir l’œuvre de nos mains,
      oui, fais réussir l’œuvre de nos mains. "
       
      Celui qui habite dans le lieu secret du Très-Haut
      logera à l’ombre du Tout-Puissant.
      Je veux dire à Jéhovah : « Tu es mon refuge et ma forteresse,
      mon Dieu en qui j’ai confiance. »
      Car il te délivrera du piège de l’oiseleur
      et de l’épidémie destructrice.
      Avec ses plumes il te couvrira,
      et sous ses ailes tu te réfugieras
      Sa fidélité sera un grand bouclier et un mur protecteur.
      Tu ne craindras ni les terreurs de la nuit,
      ni la flèche qui vole pendant le jour,
      ni l’épidémie qui rôde dans l’obscurité,
      ni la destruction qui ravage en plein midi.
      Mille tomberont à tes côtés
      et dix mille à ta droite,
      mais rien de cela ne s’approchera de toi.
      Toi, tu ne feras que voir cela de tes yeux
      quand tu assisteras à la punition des méchants.
      Puisque tu as dit : « Jéhovah est mon refuge »,
      tu as fait du Très-Haut ta demeure ;aucun désastre ne t’arrivera
      et aucun fléau ne s’approchera de ta tente.
      Car il donnera à ses anges un ordre à ton sujet,
      pour te protéger où que tu ailles.
      Ils te porteront sur leurs mains,
      pour que ton pied ne heurte pas de pierre. 
      Sur le jeune lion et le cobra tu marcheras ;
      tu piétineras le lion à crinière et le gros serpent.
      Dieu a dit : « Parce qu’il a de l’affection pour moi, je vais le délivrer.
      Je vais le protéger parce qu’il connaît mon nom.
      Il m’appellera à l’aide, et je lui répondrai.
      Je serai avec lui en temps de détresse.
      Je le délivrerai et le glorifierai.
      Je le rassasierai d’une longue vie
      et je lui ferai voir mes actes sauveurs. »
       
      "Au matin, rassasie-nous de ton amour fidèle,
      pour que nous puissions crier de joie et nous réjouir tous les jours de notre vie.
      Réjouis-nous pendant autant de jours que ceux où tu nous as affligés,
      pendant autant d’années que celles où nous avons connu le malheur.
      Que tes serviteurs voient ton action
      et que leurs fils voient ta splendeur.
      Que la faveur de Jéhovah notre Dieu soit sur nous !
      Puisses-tu faire réussir l’œuvre de nos mains,
      oui, fais réussir l’œuvre de nos mains." 


      · 1 reply
    • Bernice Krovocheck  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      Twyla, I need Weekly meeting workbook week of October 5-11
      · 2 replies
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