IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, xero said:

I've always felt that IF I have a question, then it is MY responsibility to go about finding the answers. Not everyone has the same questions, therefore not everyone else has the same responsibilities.

Now that causes many problems.  Um, let me think here. Now do YOU find the answer for yourself, or, do you just go to a Watchtower interpretation ?  Are you Anointed ? Do you think Almighty God will give the true answers to you ? 

What if a congregation of 100 people all do their own 'research' to answer a question of scripture ? Do you think they will all come up with the same answer ?  Um, now that might be causing a division in the congregation.  

And we have this silly idea in the JW Org. Everyone should do 'personal study' BUT, everyone should believe the GB's interpretation of scripture. If you decide the GB are wrong, you'd better not mention it in a KH. It's so funny but sad too. 

 

 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, xero said:

The time involved which I think is the point which eats away at one...Understanding why so long at times...

Habakkuk 1:2-3

How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing? And why do you tolerate oppression? Why are destruction and violence before me? And why do quarreling and conflict abound?

We're all familiar with Habakkuk's plight and we can add our own sentiments; "how much longer do we have to watch people suffering because of the things he mentioned, but also because of disease, starvation, old age etc.". My mother in law is 90, and is in severe pain from arthritis every day. Two of my friends died a horrible painful death from cancer. Small children dying of cancer and other diseases... everywhere you look there is SO much anguish and suffering. We ask the same questions as Habakkuk did 2600 years ago.... and Jehovah has had to watch mankind's suffering since the inception of sin. I have to keep reminding myself that Jehovah is the wisest being in the universe, also just and kind. Only he knows the perfect time to step in. Then also if we compare a lifetime of suffering of 80 years or so, and then eternity of mental peace and happiness and physical health, the suffering then is short lived and pales into insignificance.

It's a little easier to bare things if you know they are temporary....

[Anna]

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A wave of inspiration flooded you ?  

Yes. You were the catalyst. Thank you.

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

[to 4Jah]: And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny. How would you handle that?

Not to worry. We can expect a True Anointed to come along any minute and fix it.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

How would you handle that?

Well done Anna- good scenarios. It exposes if a person is reasonable or unreasonable individual. 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

don't know what made questionable about this man, and you

I should have used the world "when".  And then you go off on a totally different subject about research on this concept............ srecko .... you always go to the ploy of semantics to change the point of the thread. 

You asked about 2 kinds of unrighteousness...... I give the answer..... without considering this (my use of the word "if" sends you off on a totally other subject...... ....can you not concentrate on one subject at a time...... or is it a deliberate  ploy to troll?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization

Yes I laughed at your comment. The, i was going to say naivety, but no, it's not, it's deliberately misleading hogwash. 

I still have not gotten any answers about the 25 year pedophile database that the GB have hidden away, that they refuse to hand over to the courts. 

I still cannot find any follow up info about the GB being arrested / taken to court in connection with th CSA. Up until February last year it seemed promising, but then the virus struck and it all went quiet. 

I still haven't gotten answers to the reason why the American HQ only has 25 years worth of information, when the Org started in America, BUT, Australia had 50 years worth of information. 

Now if Australia had info' concerning over 1,000 Pedophiles over the 50 years, um, America must have much more info. BUT it seems America is pretending it only has 25 years worth of Information regarding Pedophiles in America. I wonder what they did with the other 25 years worth then ????? 

The Elders didn't 'screw up', they were told not to report. And there seems to be proof that they were also told to distroy evedence too. 

ALL the proof has been 'up here in lights', and JWI would be able to find it all it seems, as he can track people's comments from way back. For my part i cannot be bothered. I've proved things to myself for the sake of my conscince, so the rest of you can keep your heads in the sand and keep denying everything.  But whilst you do of course, things will get worse. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

10 hours ago, Anna said:

[to 4Jah]: And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny. How would you handle that?

Not to worry. We can expect a True Anointed to come along any minute and fix it.  (Tom's words)

Acts 5 : 1-4 

However, a man named An·a·niʹas, together with his wife Sap·phiʹra, sold some property. ²  But he secretly held back some of the price, with his wife’s knowledge, and he brought just a part of it and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. ³  But Peter said: “An·a·niʹas, why has Satan emboldened you to lie to the holy spirit and secretly hold back some of the price of the field?

Here is the answer. So think on it. How did Peter know the truth of the matter ?

You of little faith. You have stopped believing in God's Holy Spirit and it's power.

With a True Anointed, God can use them. God can send His Holy Spirit which will know truth from lies. But you people only think in a physical way. You have stopped believing in God's powers. If God wants a truly clean Organisation, HE will have one. 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

But you people only think in a physical way

Oh, come come. You wouldn’t be able to think your way out of a paper bag. You display it with almost every remark.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

I should have used the world "when".  And then you go off on a totally different subject about research on this concept............ srecko .... you always go to the ploy of semantics to change the point of the thread. 

You asked about 2 kinds of unrighteousness...... I give the answer..... without considering this (my use of the word "if" sends you off on a totally other subject...... ....can you not concentrate on one subject at a time...... or is it a deliberate  ploy to troll?

"If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??

I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.

Yes, Arauna, you are right. I should have known you had faith in every word of Jesus.

But I also assumed you had faith in most of what the WTJWorg interpretation is, so your IF confused me a bit. Because WTJWorg explains how this criminal will be with Jesus in Paradise not in heaven but on earth. That claim can be true, or it can be wrong. 140 years of publishing at WTJWorg gives us reason to be wary. :))

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

In WTJWorg, a structure is set up, a hierarchy that is both - spiritual and administrative. According to this measure, the WTJWorg Institution (I remind you again, JW lawyers claim in Court that according to the hierarchical system they are the same as the Catholic Church) determines who is allowed to say what and who is allowed to do what and how to do it.
Because of such an "organized system", because the JW Church is an Organization, a Legal Body aka a Corporation and the people who are in the governing structures of this Organization have responsibility for the way they act and for the consequences of how they react to all events within each assembly. If the Organization is not able to “lead” the herd, if it is not able to have “under control” the elders and their ability to handle everything they have to solve in the assembly then it is a good question you ask; How would you handle that?

The second part of the problem is the mentality of people (members), shame, hiding, feeling powerless, the question of who and how to ask for help, caution. 

And then we have the question of trust between members, trust between members and clergy (because elders want to be like Catholic clergy by privilege) , so we again have JW lawyers asking the Court Clergy Privilege, for what is being condemned as “unbiblical” in WTJWorg publications and in members mind. There are double measures inside congregations, favoritism and other "institutional (organizational) sins". And many more. So you ask good question:  How would you handle that?

[Thinking]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

The elders didn’t screw up Anna..it was the way things were done back then...their hands were tied....we have to acknowledge that...our policies have changed because of the ARC....