IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW people speak and hope for the Kingdom as the solution to all problems. But I think that vision is a bit vague to them as well. Or the vision is distorted by misconceptions of what and how “their” Kingdom will work.

What I saw in your last comment, is a trust in worldly governments. - If you have not noticed the dysfunctional, dystopian laws being passed lately, which I call the abuse of children by tmeans of the transgender agenda - giving permissions to government to remove body parts of young minor children (without parental consent), administration of hormones to 10 year olds.... and the leaving of 9 month full gestation (born fetuses) to die without medical care - then you have not been abreast with the news. Australia has brought in laws which make any councilling (biblical or psycholocal) to a person/child who wants to turn back or stop their transition..... against the law. 

I can mention so many new laws that are now being passed by decree or exec order in USA, UK, Canada, Australia etc. which one cannot even call logical or sane.... because of the disrespect for life and the creation of chaos. Yes the world is being turned topsy turvy by a tsunami of satan-inspired ideas and  laws which indicates the true intention of satan...... to make the world an immoral place where no-one can any longer find truth. Soon the truth about Jehovah will not be available..... they will search for it and not be able to find it as new laws will make  MORAL thinking illegal.

The old idea that governments will be the " mother"  to look after our interests in a beneficial and legal way, with individual rights, is a relic of the past.  One can no longer trust any government. Individual rights have been replaced by "collective" rights.  All governments serve the UN Agenda. 

Now I am not talking rebellion or disobedience here........ I am only talking trust. I do not trust any human court of law or government to look after my physical interests any longer  and definitely NEVER my spiritual interests.  If you have not noticed..... the world has gone quite crazy!..... and much more to come. We are going back to the amoral times of Canaan ... more like before the flood..

I think Jehovah will allow the human governments (at the height of technological discovery) to misuse it against the populace. Satan will be drawn out to show his true, dark deceptive goal for the earth.  An injust /amoral world will be pitch dark in its outlook and outcomes.  Jehovah will thoroughly prove that humans cannot rule the earth - especially if they negate his moral standards. (The issue of Jehovahs good and bad). 

Your comment quoted  above is incorrect. Most JWs  know that the kingdom government of jehovah is going to be a real government under the loving laws/ principles of christ - which will be willingly obeyed by everyone!  So humans will not really need intense "supervision".  They will willingly obey..... and make sacrifices to fix the earth.

Because they really have faith and "trust' Jehovah ..... they know that those who deserve destruction will be destroyed and will not live through Armageddon. They trust that jehovah can see the heart..... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection. They will be resurrected at the right time of Jesus' choice. They know that people will make mistakes in judgment day but will grow to perfection. The 144000 and christ will decide the steps to be taken.  They also know that satan will be tied for the 1000 years,.....  so when a person rebels against God (without being misled), he will be judged immediately by the one who can see the heart. Second death.

This is direct rulership of jehovah by putting in charge his Chief Agent  who will administer just laws which will be the same for everyone - no matter the gender, color or whatever.  (Secular governments sometimes have just laws but there is no equality under law because they are not enforced equally). This is not the case with the government of jehovah. A person who is a rebel will disappear and everyone will understand why. Aaron did not mourn his 2 sons...... after they disrespected jehovah. Everyone will put love of jehovah first in their lives.

Jesus may directly employ angels as messengers -  we do not know. But the education work for all to learn Jehovah's laws will be massive!  Although the resurrection will be done in steps.  This will require organization and cooperation. Brothers on earth who organize us will not be "rulers" as we understand them to be in this system of things. I call them "facilitators".  People who serve others and make it easy for them to serve jehovah in an orderly way..

Adam and eve - if they remained faithful and perfect - would not have required kings or people to check their obedience - ever. But family heads may eventually have organized their families ....... such as in Israel the families cooperated and moved in formation under Jehovahs direction. 

You once said on this forum .... will Jesus find this "faith " .when he comes? ...... yes, his Witnesses put full faith in this future government because of the justice and righteousness it will bring. They really "trust" and have faith in this kingdom government.

So we have received enough education about the kingdom to get us through Armageddon and give us the faith to not trust human governments (  666)  but only Jehovahs government. Jehovah and his very capable king will be in charge and we will follow most willingly and obediently.

Under resurrection in the insight book (I speak from memory) it gives the mathematical realities of the resurrection. It shows that 20 billion people could be resurrected in the first 500 years.  If the first people are resurrected and thereafter only every 33 years..... and given this time to learn about jehovah..... they will then be able to teach the next ones who are resurrected......Exponentially they will have taught all resurrected ones at 33 year increments within the first 500 years.  

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

I would like you to point them out in a kind way so I can go and upgrade the knowledge I lack.  If you are a true Christian you would help me and not just critisize me. Serious - you may go ahead and give me all the weak spots 

What could be more humble than this? Asking for help. Asking for counsel. Asking for strengthening. Abasing oneself as a child. Surely a true Christian would be softened at this. Surely a true Christian would offer a mild response. His response?

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

As you were to me, try to learn your own failures before you attempt to criticize mine. My knowledge base takes decades  of disciplined Bible study, understanding and interpretation. I don't except anyone to know my level of knowledge. They need to know what's written in the Bible and accept it. 

Nothing! Not a bit of help, though he was entreated in the kindest way! Just boasting about his own brilliance, and denouncing anyone who has given him the slightest offense! 

I tell you, I have pretty well come around to an idea @JW Insideronce floated, that he is not a Witness at all, and his primary M.O. is to make JWs look as nasty and intolerant as possible by pretending he is one. 

Nor have I ever actually seen him give a witness, in the way Arauna just did   a few comments above, or relate an upbuilding experience, or strive to upbuild anyone. I have not seen Christian kindness, Does he “continue to show mercy to those who have doubts,” as in Jude 23, “snatching them from the fire?” Or does he turn up the flames on them?

Arauna’s “experiment” (though she be quite sincere in asking for help) just about clinches it for me. The guy is a fraud. As such, the ruse is cleverly done, because he does have command of certain legalistic points, which he “fortifies” with picayune ones (that fall apart upon scrutiny—or at the very least, reveal astounding tone-deafness). If he really is a brother, some serious self-examination is called for.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

What I saw in your last comment, is a trust in worldly governments.

Sorry, wrong view. Perhaps naivety is my characteristic, but I have no trust in many things.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Because they really have faith and "trust' Jehovah ..... they know that those who deserve destruction will be destroyed and will not live through Armageddon. They trust that jehovah can see the heart..... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection. They will be resurrected at the right time of Jesus' choice. They know that people will make mistakes in judgment day but will grow to perfection. The 144000 and christ will decide the steps to be taken.  They also know that satan will be tied for the 1000 years,.....  so when a person rebels against God (without being misled), he will be judged immediately by the one who can see the heart. Second death.

... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection.

Confusing conclusion. And based on what? If JW's claims how exists at least two group of "unrighteous",  to one group the heart inclines to Jesus, as you said, and to others it does not incline to Jesus (??), then it would be logical to conclude that even among the "righteous who will be resurrected" there are also some characteristics (one, two or more) that make them fit and/or unfit for resurrection. Interpretation you and WTJWorg offer is strange. You and WTJWorg make Bible simple quote to be  theologically obscure, darkened. Your doctrine making gradation of injustice, of unrighteousness. To some level ones unrighteousness is acceptable, and/but after some point unrighteousness of other is not acceptable. If I remember correctly, the idea being advocated, is that these are “unrighteous” who have not heard or understood the preaching about Jesus, about good news, proclaimed in the past before WTJWorg and maybe today in time of JW global preaching.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Under resurrection in the insight book (I speak from memory) it gives the mathematical realities of the resurrection. It shows that 20 billion people could be resurrected in the first 500 years.  If the first people are resurrected and thereafter only every 33 years..... and given this time to learn about jehovah..... they will then be able to teach the next ones who are resurrected......Exponentially they will have taught all resurrected ones at 33 year increments within the first 500 years.  

Merely human interpretations and guessing. WTJWorg is in chaos about such things and producing misconceptions in the thoughts and heart of the members.

Adam and Eve need few minutes to came from perfection to imperfection. Why would reverse process take more time? Someone has faith or no faith:)) 

[xero]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps this is how it could be said; Man is the cause of the problem, so man could also be the solution to the problem.
Here is an example/fact you provide of how the authorities, various commissions and investigations are stuck in resolving the CSA. While the competent people, in a secular and religious society, try to improve the situation or obstruct the solution of the problem, during that time old and new victims of violence suffer.
The entry of religion, whatever religion is supposed to mean, will not contribute to a solution. Eg. WTJWorg is partly a religion, but by its actions in investigations or in the courts it has primarily sought to protect itself, its Administration. Similar is done by other Institutions, religious or not.

Furthermore, I see the following problem. JW people speak and hope for the Kingdom as the solution to all problems. But I think that vision is a bit vague to them as well. Or the vision is distorted by misconceptions of what and how “their” Kingdom will work.
The kingdom (as the vision of most JW members) is like any other creation similar to what is around us. The JWs explain that the Kingdom is a theocracy, hence the rule of God. If this were so then no physical, earthly elements should be present. Earthly elements are levers of power and hierarchy. So in the Kingdom of God there must be no Kings, Princes, Elders, Ministerial servants, Governing Body, Helpers etc.
JW preach the opposite. Their vision of the Kingdom of God is presented with all the elements that exist today not only in their Organization, but also in the Catholic Church (remember the statement of JW lawyers in Court that they are organized on the same hierarchical principle as the Catholic Church) and in secular terms. Thus, one group (minority) shapes policy and determines direction, the other group (majority) follows instructions.

So even in this kind of Kingdom of God, there will need to be a system of oversight, judiciary, and repression. Question is; Who will do this? Human? Is it really a theocracy? 

Until the individual himself stops doing bad but only does good, there is no Kingdom.

I don't say I disagree however before someone hands me a crescent wrench when I ask for a 9/16th socket I need to fully understand what "fixed" is before I get on the business of "fixing".

Jesus did say "I have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them at present." - This enigmatic statement could mean many things. The issues are many, the solution the kingdom. The problem as the world and even some JW's see it is that these imagine they have it all figured out how it's going to be/go (I don't). I understand the desire "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom at this time?"

They view human stop-gap measures as being God-given or betrayals at times to various issues when human measures, albeit w/attempts at doing things God's way are attempted.

So much impatience - me too.

On the other hand. The kingdom isn't described as waiting on humans in the bible. It crashes down and ends the flailing about.

[xero]

Speaking of human solutions. A sort of pre-crime initiative, or a future urim-thummim test of guilt.

The U.S. Navy apparently experimented w/fmri and eeg to be able to determine previous experience w/certain Navy medical training based on analysis of these scans after the subject was shown a series of images. Those lacking the experience displayed a different pattern.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-machines-that-will-read-your-mind-11554476156

As it turns out, potential child abusers brains respond differently to certain images. A thoroughgoing secular government which unilaterally decided child abuse was illegal and wanted to go up-stream to prevent those w/the potential for such actions could be scanned and disallowed from positions which might allow these situations.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-machines-that-will-read-your-mind-11554476156

I find this all rather interesting, but as the world becomes increasingly secular and "immoral" stops being "immoral" because morality can't exist w/o God, it's merely "Society has decided we want more of "X" and less of "Y" and this is our proposed path."

Ultimately it's a 1984/Brave New World situation - one w/o free will. This has been Satan's argument (at least one of them) - that free will is a mistake. Jehovah says "No. Free will is not a mistake. Jesus proved a human could do it, therefore you're a liar."

But - w/o the kingdom every single human will be driving themselves to death chasing utopia (and every man-made utopia has failed, because every man-made utopia kills off free will and any humans unwilling to comply)

[Arauna]

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

how exists at least two group of "unrighteous", 

The man who was next to Jesus when he died on the stake was an unrighteous man - he died the death which he inherited from Adam.  If he gets  a resurrection in the new system he will be resurrected from "sheol" or 'hades'. He comes out of the death we all inherited from Adam.  If he rebels after this in the new earthly system there is no ransom any longer to pay for his sins. It is a sin to the degree of Adam and Eve, he will see "second death" - Gehenna. 

The bible itself says that the 'unrighteous' will be raised up Acts 24:15. But it also shows in Revelation 20 that those who are on the earth after Armageddon and rebel against Jehovah when Satan is let lose will see everlasting destruction - Gehenna. I suggest you read revelation 20 for yourself.

56 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Merely human interpretations and guessing.

Mathematics proves that it is possible - that is all. It strengthens our "faith".  Our faith is built on evidence of the realities not yet fulfilled.   You once asked the question - will there be such faith?  Yes there is. We believe in an earthly resurrection for most of those who have lived on the earth.  Is it practical to believe this? Yes because it is possible.. 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

when JTR took the cake at being as you state "self-defensive, nasty, overbearing, and obnoxious" that NOT even you called him out on,

I did my dear... maybe not harshly because I was trying to show patience to him. But on many occasion I called him out and I was not always kind. I have not been quiet on this forum when people bend the truth. I give benefit of the doubt until I am sure someone is really bending the truth so much they could be bending spoons!......(in spiritistic way)

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

What I saw in your last comment, is a trust in worldly governments.

Exactly. This is the issue before all the earth; will it be rulership by man or rulership by God? Everything else is a subset of this greater frame. And yet:

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Sorry, wrong view. Perhaps naivety is my characteristic, but I have no trust in many things.

It is not trust. It is acquiescence. He freely admits that ‘his’ side has nothing. But it does not stop him from sabotaging those who have decided, that since that is the case with conventional paradigms, they will look outside them. He has nothing. And he wants to make sure you don’t either. It has become his mission in life, his warped “good news.”

In this purely secular worldview is revealed the cancer of the burgeoning  “anti-cult” movement: its “pretension to standing as the final arbiter of religious truth.” It is as though the directive is given: “Search for the meaning of life, if you want to trouble yourself with such nonsense, but do not do it outside the guardrails we have constructed for you. That side we have checked for you and declared it bogus. It is “off-limits” for you.”

In Russia, this secular anti-cultism combines with other unfortunate circumstances to declare the most peaceful people on earth “extremists.” In order to validate that label, and thus not look silly themselves, police have to arrest them as they would extremists. If you arrest them as you would jaywalkers, you are proclaiming to all that you are a liar, and that you know full well they are not extremists.

Thus, Jehovah’s Witnesses are arrested violently, and this is a response the anti-cultists caused but did not intend, much like the relationship of murder to manslaughter. When you release the hounds of hell you find you cannot control just who they maul. In theory, as civil libertarians warned, the vague “anti-extremism” laws of Russia are written so loosely as to threaten any non-mainstream religious denomination. In practice, they threaten primarily (sometimes solely) Jehovah’s Witnesses. In a report that deals with the anti-cult movement, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, states: The anti-cult movement continues to conduct a highly effective disinformation campaign against religious minorities with devastating consequences for their human rights.” Which religious minorities in particular? Rachel Denber of Human Rights Watch says: “Russia’s religious persecution focuses almost entirely on Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

This, too, like the violent arrests, is entirely unanticipated by human standards. Nobody is specifically to blame. Even Putin says, “Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christian, too. I don’t quite understand why we persecute them.” It is a comedy of errors except it isn’t funny. Is it not permissible to look for a super-human explanation when the human ones so poorly account for the facts?

Emily Baron, she of Dissent on the Margins, spends virtually no time on Twitter, and follows only a handful of people. One of those she does follow, however, has the moniker, “Please excuse me for not having a PhD in whatever b******t you have your PhD in.” I don’t know that he speaks of anti-cultism, but being that Baran chronicles (up to 2014) the Russian devastation wrought by that cancer, he might be. At any rate, if he is not he should be, so I will take it as though he does. There is b******t out there, and you can get a PhD in it. The #CultExpert got his PhD. It took all of two minutes for him to append ‘Dr.’ to his name, and update his profile. He now interjects himself in any situation involving non-traditional religions, up to and including half the country for being “manipulated” into the “cult of Trump.” (now we will see if Alan is still lurking here)

The USCIRF, with regard to religious connotations, blows the cover off this nonsense. “I was hoping someone would say it other than me,” says Hercule Poirot (not Suchet, but Finney). So was I. And my hope was answered—more than richly answered, for the agency says it more concisely, more powerfully, than what I have said in ten times the words. (It is the same thing with Holly Folk and CSA.) The field is rife with “pseudo-science.” its proponents (Dvorkin in Russia, though he received his training in the U.S. and France) generally lack qualifications in what they expound and for which they recommend policy.

“Dvorkin has long provided the anti-cult movement with a veneer of intellectual credibility. Since 1999, he has taught Sectarian Studies at the ROC’s University of St. Tikhon; yet, his degree in Medieval Studies provides no academic grounding in religious studies or the sociological and psychological concepts on which he so frequently relies.” He has “effectively merged Western anti-cult ideas with the post-Soviet context, where anxiety about the return to the Stalinist past competed with fears about an unstable present.” It is a Western import, like Communism itself! Is Russia forever to be victimized by outside forces?

The “growing anti-cult movement informed by pseudo- scientific concepts like “brainwashing” and “mind control” . . . portray[s] individual members [mostly Jehovah’s Witnesses, per Denber] as helpless victims without their own free will or ability to save themselves. This rhetoric enabled groups to justify the forced removal of friends and relatives from the religions of their choice, and even advocated for “deprogramming” regimens that used coercive (and highly questionable) psychological techniques.” The USCIRF specifically recommends that Dvorkin be censured at the prime instigator of this hate campaign in Russia. 

And yet, he is not necessarily a hater. He simply has bought into a patronizing “protector” philosophy, as has Srecko, that “I know better than you.” He examines the “cramped and narrow road” and has determined that since it is cramped and narrow Witnesses must not walk on it. As patronizing people everywhere, he presents himself as their benefactor. He views them as flying monkeys, and after he douses the Wicked Witch, they will no doubt thank him, just like they did Dorothy in the movie. 

Why didn’t the USCIRF release their report (it is July 2020) before  I wrote Dear Mr. Putin—Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia? Why didn’t they tell me about it before I completed the rewrite in 40% fewer words—partly offset by some new chapters detailing the dark turn events have taken? What is wrong with them? What I should do is rewrite the rewrite to thoroughly incorporate this expose of anti-cult fanaticism. But I am tired of rewriting this book. I am going to slap it on at the end where is will serve as a coup de grace tying together multiple points I have made within. It is better for the ego if I provide the coup de grace to them, rather than they to me, but give credit where it is due. I am so glad to see a prominent government agency say Enough! to this destructive nonsense. Not that I expect it to prevail, primarily because of the identity of the one with which Christians wage war.

But I do have a heads-up on they. They can dissect the material. They can do it better, and Lord knows more scholarly, than I can. But I can present the spiritual context. Perhaps they believe “all roads lead to heaven.” Perhaps they believe none of them do. You never know with scholars. 

In another report from that same body, even more recent, entitled “The Global Persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses,” it is acknowledged such persecution “has increased dramatically in recent years.” It is a situation that is “particularly illustrative” and deserves “wider attention,” though not primarily for the reasons they say: “for global efforts on behalf of freedom of religion or belief.” If it happens, it happens. We’ll gladly take it and say ‘thank you very much’, but the primary instruction lies elsewhere.

The primary instruction lies in matching Jesus words of how his followers would be objects of hated by all the nations on account of his name, (Matthew 24:9) with the people who actually are those objects of hatred, as validated by Human Rights Watch and by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. I will say no more than this, for I do not want to be guilty of proclaiming the superiority of one’s beliefs, an extremist offense in Russia. Though perhaps the above verse indicates, with its obvious application to present reality, that it is the Bible itself that must be banned in that land—not just the NWT, but any translation of the “sacred scriptures.” Under manipulation of the anti-cultists, that country has trashed what is sacred.

Be sure to click on the links. For once (@The Librarian will scarcely believe it) they do not lead to my blog.

[xero]

That was lengthy, Tom, but interesting. I keep trying to keep my head up because if I look at what's happening I find my anxiety increasing and wondering "Is it now?" and like the scripture says "expectation postponed makes the heart sick".

[TrueTomHarley]

24 minutes ago, xero said:

That was lengthy, Tom, but interesting. I keep trying to keep my head up because if I look at what's happening I find my anxiety increasing and wondering "Is it now?" and like the scripture says "expectation postponed makes the heart sick".

I hate to say it, but I am quite comfy personally as is—though of course I realize this is not true of the greater brotherhood and may not continue to hold true for me. 

I have carved myself a unique little niche, partly due to a modest innate talent and partly because I am not good at anything else. Will the new system liberate me in that regard? Or will the brothers say, “Aren’t you the one who hung out on that squirrelly site to battle the ne’er-do-wells after we said you ought not? Hmm. What are your qualifications? Battling “apostates?” Too bad for you there aren’t any now.” ?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 2/25/2021 at 5:01 PM, César Chávez said:

How can the UK Parliament make significant changes if the problem comes from within? The same problem Australia has. You seem to dismiss the corruption that is found with these panels and governments. If they shield their own, what then? The ARC did the same thing when it tried and failed to "HIDE" certain crimes from government run institutions, by government employee's. 

Whilst I agree that governments / panels are not to be fully trusted and are part of Satan's world and commit as much sin as the rest of the world. There are a couple of things to consider. 

1. Almighty God allows those governments to be there and HE has had it put in scripture that people should obey those 'Superior Authorities'.  So, as it does not disobey God then those Superior Authorities should be obeyed. 

2. It does no good at all to be concerned with their sins. If they are finding real problems in any religion, then those religions should admit the problems are there and be totally honest about dealing with them. That includes paying compensation if the law of the land demands it. 

The ARC didn't 'pick on' the JW Org. The JW Org was just one religion investigated.  Most other religions and other organisations joined the scheme to pay compensation. The JW Org did not. 

[TrueTomHarley]

31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Aren’t you the one who hung out on that squirrelly site to battle the ne’er-do-wells after we said you ought not? Hmm. What are your qualifications? Battling “apostates?” Too bad for you there aren’t any now.”

“Here’s a hammer. Go build your house. See if you can get one of the brothers to show you how it works.”