They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)

[TrueTomHarley]

7 minutes ago, xero said:

Not necessarily. The WTBTS understands the former point correctly, however they're not dogmatic about whom might be in each group.

Sure. Maybe God will prove to be a soft touch. He sure did with Nineveh. All you had to do is not know your left hand from your right and there are many here that meet those qualifications. Plus, there are some who are dumber than domestic animals, fulfilling the second portion of the verse. Still, I see no reason to take any chances and not hang out in the place of known safety.

[Kick_Faceinator]

9 minutes ago, xero said:

Not necessarily. The WTBTS understands the former point correctly, however they're not dogmatic about whom might be in each group.

"...I could be arguing in my spare time"

Not really. Somewhere down the line watchtower got mixed up in thinking their organization can offer the same salvation as Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, it’s only Jesus Christ who can save. “Only Jesus has the power to save! His name is the only one in all the world that can save anyone” Acts 4:12 [CEV]

[xero]

3 hours ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

Not really. Somewhere down the line watchtower got mixed up in thinking their organization can offer the same salvation as Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, it’s only Jesus Christ who can save. “Only Jesus has the power to save! His name is the only one in all the world that can save anyone” Acts 4:12 [CEV]

Which is why I suspect the bar to pass through to the 1000 year reign to be lower depending on the individual, but arguing about not doing this or that thing because some individual has an opinion is to miss the point.

 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sure. Maybe God will prove to be a soft touch. He sure did with Nineveh. All you had to do is not know your left hand from your right and there are many here that meet those qualifications. Plus, there are some who are dumber than domestic animals, fulfilling the second portion of the verse. Still, I see no reason to take any chances and not hang out in the place of known safety.

Exactly. Not to mention the fact that even now not doing what's right is bad for you as an individual.

[Witness]

13 hours ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

Not really. Somewhere down the line watchtower got mixed up in thinking their organization can offer the same salvation as Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, it’s only Jesus Christ who can save. “Only Jesus has the power to save! His name is the only one in all the world that can save anyone” Acts 4:12 [CEV]

Right before Peter said those words, he told the people…

Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
    which has become the cornerstone.’  Acts 4:11

The organization is observable, and the leadership’s visibility is well seen through their broadcasts.  They magnify themselves and their great building attempts; all in the name of “Jehovah”.  There is promise of a token contribution to Jesus by a coming video production on his life.  Yet, the organization also explained that it felt there was too much emphasis made on the name of Jesus in the early years, so a change to more emphasis on the name, “Jehovah” was established.  What audacity.  There is no comparison of the early apostles’ teachings about Christ, to the teachings of the organization’s leaders. 

So, where is the chief cornerstone?  Is Jesus the cornerstone of a physical organization? He is the cornerstone of God’s spiritual Temple, built with “living stones”. (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) How disgusting to think that Jesus would be proud of earthly possessions – the same possessions that Satan offered him in the wilderness.  (Matt 6:21; Luke 4:5-7)

The chief cornerstone of the organization are false christs – false teachers/prophets.  (Matt 24:24,11-13; Luke 21:8)

How I wish JWs would turn to Christ and reject these deceitful men.  As you say, it is Jesus who grants us salvation through obedience to him.  But JWs obey what and who they physically see.  

Do we really want to stand before Christ during judgment to hear him say, “I never knew you” because we rejected him as the chief cornerstone of the Temple built on his body?  (Matt 7:21-23)

 

The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
23 the Lord has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 The Lord has done it this very day;
    let us rejoice today and be glad.  Ps 118:22-24

"the builders rejected"  

How telling is that!  The builders are busy building Ramapo with slave labor and treasures on earth!

Glory

 

[xero]

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat. There is a natural disgust reflex, but the opposer especially the moral opposer who places themselves in the judgment seat often has an unnatural and self induced disgust based on his or her own presumptuous standards. In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, xero said:

In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

I agree that what you said at first, and it is probably true quite often. But I honestly couldn't tell if you were trying to be funny or ironic when you appeared to be coming "full circle" by putting yourself in the judgment seat to judge these behaviors of others as even more filthy, offensive and disgusting.

[Srecko Sostar]

xero Introducing comment:

I was an atheist visiting the KH w/my gf who was studying, and I observed them for months and also went to a day of a district convention when it struck me what was most different about JW's was that their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group. This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

1 hour ago, xero said:

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat. There is a natural disgust reflex, but the opposer especially the moral opposer who places themselves in the judgment seat often has an unnatural and self induced disgust based on his or her own presumptuous standards. In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

...their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group.

As a non JW, from your observation, you concluded (i guess or perhaps i am wrong because don't understand English enough) that (previously "bad") individuals were getting better and better persons and that motivated them to start hanging out with each other at the public meetings (JW public group meetings, not some other group as you suggest). And second option of my understanding is, that you described how they in such mutual socializing grew in size and grew in more better behavior (to each other, of course). Am i going in direction of your thoughts?

This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

 Here I would like to ask: With how many groups you had been? And with what kind of groups?

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat.

How do you feel about behavior of other people who doing something that you do not approve?

There is a natural disgust reflex, but the opposer especially the moral opposer who places themselves in the judgment seat often has an unnatural and self induced disgust based on his or her own presumptuous standards.

You made general rule (idea) how people normal reaction is to be disgust with some other people actions in word or deed. But after this sort of amnesty for all, how we all have right to be disgusted by other people behavior, you started to speak about "opposer", and how such "sort" of people are not just in possession of "disgust reflex", but that they "seat in judgment seat". Who are "opposer" in your thought stream? How you came to such "judgment"?  Is your judgment based on...... 

... own presumptuous standards.

....or on WTJWorg group standards that carry "judgment for all who don't accept JW religious standards"?

2 hours ago, xero said:

In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

Does your JW group standard bring judgment how only  WTJWorg is clean and all other are filthy?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/14/2021 at 1:20 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

in the place of known safety.

Is there one ?  Certainly not a JW Kingdom Hall where pedophiles frequent. 

 

On 3/14/2021 at 1:20 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Maybe God will prove to be a soft touch

The scriptures say that God takes NO pleasure in the death of anybody. Whereas the GB and it's many companies seem to take pleasure in threatening ex congregants in any way they can.  And try to blackmail other people into joining those companies / orgs.

 

[xero]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I agree that what you said at first, and it is probably true quite often. But I honestly couldn't tell if you were trying to be funny or ironic when you appeared to coming "full circle" by putting yourself in the judgment seat to judge these behaviors of others as even more filthy, offensive and disgusting.

I just think of the scripture that says "the taking of offense rests in the bosom of the stupid ones"

[Matthew9969]

On 3/12/2021 at 2:01 PM, xero said:

I don't fault other denominations for trying, but I think the mercenary nature of their clergy w/the emphasis on college over spiritual and scriptural qualities and the clergy/laity distinction where individuals can offload their moral responsibilities to others (yup, people in JW's try to pull that crap too at times and elders should NEVER reinforce that) but I just haven't seen anything like JW's anywhere.

Again, I have never seen aggression as your describing. and are you aware the watchtower is claiming they are clergy in court cases?

[xero]

1 minute ago, Matthew9969 said:

Again, I have never seen aggression as your describing. and are you aware the watchtower is claiming they are clergy in court cases?

I don't think you know what the word "mercenary" means. It has nothing to do w/aggression.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, xero said:

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat.

If a person didn't judge in some way then they would not know right from wrong.  For instance if a person didn't judge they could simply become a Catholic, maybe because their parents were or a friend is.  And be honest the GB / JW Org has judged the Catholic church and other religions many times. Some JWs on here regularly judge other religions when making comparison to JW Org.  

And being disgusted by Pedophilia seems right in my eyes, as I'm sure it is in the eyes of God and Christ.