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Matthew 13 Wheat and weeds, and, when and where is the Kingdom ?


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Matthew 13 from v 36.

"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37  In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38  the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40  Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42  and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43  At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."

Does this scripture prove that the Kingdom is here on Earth right now?

41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Could this be the removing of 'the ones causing stumbling and practicing lawlessness' within the JW Org ? and then 'the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun', those being the True Anointed ones. 

The scripture seems to make it clear that the Kingdom is here on Earth right now.

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I think you asked an excellent question here. Last year, I think, you were part of the conversation where the point was made that this verse seems like an exception to the more general idea in the Bible that the end, last day, his parousia, the synteleia, end of all things, his manifestation, his  appearance, his revelation, the day of the Lord, Jehovah's day, the harvest, trumpet call, judgment day, resurrection, etc. all refer (generally) to a single, great future apocalyptic event of unknown

I agree with you 100% that it's possible to mix them up. In fact, "@Patiently. . ." was on the right track when he asked:  Specifically, when Jesus said "the harvest is great" he seems to refer to the importance and urgency of the preaching work during any time in history. There was an urgency during the first century and there is an urgency now. However, when Jesus said, "the harvest is the synteleia of the age" (NWT: "the harvest is a conclusion of the system of the things" this wa

Just as I stated. It has become ‘all roads lead to heaven’ with him. That didn’t take long. I’ll bet already with him Jesus has died upon a cross.

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1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Could this be the removing of 'the ones causing stumbling and practicing lawlessness' within the JW Org ?

It seems you only apply the pieces you want to.

When Jesus was on earth he gave this illustration. Jesus planted the fine wheat - sons of the kingdom.  Satan sowed weeds in amongst the wheat in the time of Jesus.  Greek philosophy and pagan teachings together with those who were bringing in immorality into the congregation was already visible in the congregation in time of the apostles. The apostles wrote about this in their letters - warning brothers against the wicked.  For example: one man was removed from the congregation for sleeping with his mother.

As soon as John died t(and even before) he bad seed got a foothold in the congregation ( the bad seeds were already there) for the creation of powerful Christendom. Christen-dom is religion with political power. The creation of the Roman catholic church and its powerful leaders ruled for centuries and were responsible for the dark ages in europe.

Jesus said that they must let the true wheat and the bad seeds grow together until the time of the end. During the dominion of false Christendom many true wheat were murdered.  People such as Wycliffe, Johannes Huss - and people like them -  were burned on the stake and tortured for translating the bible.  THese could have been anointed people and part of the wheat. 

As Daniel indicates - near the time of the harvest people will start to investigate the word of god close to the establishment of the kingdom.  This happened after the secular renaissance. When the power of the church started to wane a little people started to independently research the bible.  This gave opportunity to spread the truth and the inspection of those professing to be the wheat took place as Mal 3:1-3 indicates.  The wheat was cleansed.

Jehovah had a people for his name on earth again who did not learn war any more Isaiah 2:2-4 

"Mal 3 17  “And they will be mine,”

    Hello guest!
 says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property.
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him.
    Hello guest!
 18  And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person,
    Hello guest!
 between one serving God and one not serving him.”

Soon the wheat and the imitation wheat will be separated and the imitation wheat be destroyed. The "man of lawlessness" will be revealed.  For example many churches are making the new morality acceptable and the pope is pushing  the LGBTQ and UN Agenda 2030.  The harlot is riding the beast just like before but she is blatant about it and thinks she is riding like a queen ... that nothing can happen to her. Orthodox religion is standing up against the governments and getting involved in politics (also riding the beast in different way). False religion is starting to show their true colors by following political agendas - they have the mark of the beast - politics.!

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15 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 

 

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

For example many churches are making the new morality acceptable and the pope is pushing  the LGBTQ and UN Agenda 2030.  The harlot is riding the beast just like before but she is blatant about it and thinks she is riding like a queen ... that nothing can happen to her. Orthodox religion is standing up against the governments and getting involved in politics (also riding the beast in different way). False religion is starting to show their true colors by following political agendas - they have the mark of the beast - politics.!

The churches are part of this world, not part of the Kingdom. Jesus said his angels will collect out FROM HIS KINGDOM, not from the world. 

The scripture I have quoted is from the NWT and it says PEOPLE who practice lawlessness. 

So where is the Kingdom and those people mentioned ? 

Remember that the Kingdom is no part of this world.

JWs presume only their religion is true and righteous. So to follow through on that from a JW viewpoint, the Kingdom must be in the JW Org. 

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3 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Could this be the removing of 'the ones causing stumbling and practicing lawlessness'

The man of lawlessness is not part of Jesus' kingdom. The man of lawlessness is part of the bad seed sown by Satan. 

The bad seed grew for almost 2 millennia together with the fine seed until the 'conclusion of things'. There is no doubt that the man of lawlessness will be revealed. There may be individuals who pretend to be part of the wheat which are not - and will be destroyed - but as christ's bride - the remaining wheat (anointed ) will receive their reward.

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1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

JWs presume only their religion is true and righteous. So to follow through on that from a JW viewpoint, the Kingdom must be in the JW Org. 

Just as I stated. It has become ‘all roads lead to heaven’ with him. That didn’t take long.

I’ll bet already with him Jesus has died upon a cross.

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It seems to me that the only reason people argue about the stake or the  cross is to enhance their own credibility about other things, reasoning that if you can prove the stake concept is correct for the cross concept is correct you have more credibility.

It doesn’t 

…… Unless of course you actually have photographs.

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5 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Does this scripture prove that the Kingdom is here on Earth right now?

Yes. The Bible says that Jesus was already bringing persons into that Kingdom, and that he made them to be a Kingdom.

(Colossians 1:13) . . .He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son,

(Revelation 1:6) . . .and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

But not ALL things that are "bound" by humans on earth are eternally bound in heaven, yet. Some persons in the current earthly side of the Kingdom will need to be thrown out of the Kingdom when the harvest (the conclusion) begins. So there is also the promise, the covenant, that those remaining faithful to the end will be granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom (the heavenly portion):

(2 Peter 1:11) . . .In fact, in this way you will be richly granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

And, yes, it should also be obvious that this can include those currently claiming to be JWs.

This is why Christians who are partakers in that Kingdom are "no part of the world" as you said, and therefore even now treated as residents of that Kingdom and aliens and temporary residents of their current nations of residence. Soon they will be permanent residents, shining like the sun, in their everlasting abode:

(1 Peter 2:4-11) . . .Coming to him as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but chosen, precious, with God, 5 YOU yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.. . . 9 But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; . . .11 Beloved, I exhort YOU as aliens and temporary residents . . .

But it's not a simple matter of identifying "time." It's also the sureness of the promise, the covenant, that makes it possible to speak of the Kingdom --even the heavenly part of that Kingdom-- as already here, even though there will clearly be events in the future and final events of that Kingdom which will be outstanding, such as the time when the righteous ones shine forth.

(Ephesians 2:6, 7) . . .Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming systems of things he might demonstrate the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus.

When the "conclusion" [Gk: synteleia] begins, there are no more wheat and weeds growing together. This is how we know that we have not reached that "synteleia" yet. (This is not the WTS pov, of course.) Also, of course, we are still looking for fine soil, to be planted with good seed, and some are still planting, and some are still watering, and God is making good seeds (good hearts) grow. When the harvest (the conclusion) arrives, obviously there will be no more planting and watering and growing. The harvest IS the synteleia according to scripture:

(Matthew 13:39) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, . . .

[The harvest is the synteleia (final end) of the system of things.]

So this will be understood differently if one thinks that planting and growing continue even after the harvest begins, and then that would mean that one will also have to try to give a different meaning to the word "synteleia" so that it could mean, for example, a 100+ year conclusion rather than a final, destructive end, or "end of all things." But we can know the Biblical intent of the word, because there are times when the Bible switches telos (end) and syn-telos (end of all things together) interchangeably:

(1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end [telos] of all things has drawn close.. . .

(1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends [teloi] of the systems of things have come.

But again, just as with trying to pin an exact time on when and where the Kingdom exists in heaven vs on earth, we have a similar (purposeful) reason to also say that the final end (joint end), "ending [of all things] together" had already begun back when the last days began. That's because of the power and incontrovertability of what Jesus has already done and the sureness of that covenant promise.

(Hebrews 6:17-20) 17 In this same way, when God decided to demonstrate more clearly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 in order that through two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to the refuge may have strong encouragement to take firm hold of the hope set before us. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm, and it enters in within the curtain, 20 where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, . . .

This may even be why Hebrews could also indicate that we were already  in the time of that "joint end" when Hebrews was written:

(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.

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(1 Peter 1:19, 20) . . .. 20 True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU

(Galatians 4:3-5) . . .. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) . . .God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days [Gk, "has in the last days"] spoken to us by means of a Son. . .

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 the brother putting out the possible timing and specific dates ..eg 2030 ..is a good move ..just as in a chess game,,when enough of the people begin to accept this timing  as written in stone ,the time will be right to the great time keeper, and to those looking down  at their calenders /watches will have missed looking up  at the door of the ark slowly closing right in front of them.. and that is called checkmate....thank you brother

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3 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

those looking down  at their calenders /watches will have missed looking up

How can you not upvote a bro whose banner is “Listen to Your Wife?” My wife has been trying to get me to adopt that logo forever.

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3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

 

It seems to me that the only reason people argue about the stake or the  cross is to enhance their own credibility about other things, reasoning that if you can prove the stake concept is correct for the cross concept is correct you have more credibility.

Throw this dog a bone. There is something to what he says.

I went years on my own blog without ever mentioning our belief that Jesus died on a stake, not a cross, because once you come forward with something like that, people latch on to it as the definitive Jehovah's Witness belief, whereas it really is only a detail for us. “What do you know about Jehovah's Witnesses?” they'll be asked, and their reply will be “well, I know they don't celebrate Christmas, and they don't take blood transfusions, and they don't believe Jesus died on a cross.” All true, but it's as though someone asks you at a party, “what do you do?” and you say “well, I brush my teeth.” So I hadn’t made a big deal about the point.

That all changed when ABCNews.com made a big deal about it. “Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross” ran the headline of July 2, 2010, followed up with: “No Evidence in Ancient Sources Backs Up Defining Symbol of Christianity, Scholar Says.”

Well, if a angel or a scholar says it…. It all goes to show what matters is not what is said. What matters is who said it. Buttressed by a scholar, I wrote a fine post on the topic, and had a lot of fun in the process:

    Hello guest!

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:51 AM, TrueTomHarley said:
On 7/11/2021 at 7:42 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

JWs presume only their religion is true and righteous. So to follow through on that from a JW viewpoint, the Kingdom must be in the JW Org. 

Just as I stated. It has become ‘all roads lead to heaven’ with him. That didn’t take long.

I’ll bet already with him Jesus has died upon a cross.

Once again I can only say that Tom seems to be unwell. Mentally and spiritually unwell. Otherwise there is no excuse for his dishonesty and twisting of my words. This dishonesty and wrongful judgement from him will not go well for him in the coming judgement. 

Tom makes strange statements with no explanation. Back in that 1st century people did the same toward Jesus.  Jesus was accused of all sorts of 'sin'. The apostles too were treated badly by many. 

Why should anyone that is trying to serve God through Christ expect any diferent. 

 

 

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On 7/11/2021 at 9:41 AM, JW Insider said:

Yes. The Bible says that Jesus was already bringing persons into that Kingdom, and that he made them to be a Kingdom.

But the JW religion teaches that the Kingdom was not established until 1914. 

However the Bible seems to state that the Kingdom was already established whilst Jesus was here on Earth. 

On 7/11/2021 at 9:41 AM, JW Insider said:

But not ALL things that are "bound" by humans on earth are eternally bound in heaven, yet. Some persons in the current earthly side of the Kingdom will need to be thrown out of the Kingdom when the harvest (the conclusion) begins. So there is also the promise, the covenant, that those remaining faithful to the end will be granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom (the heavenly portion):

Some persons in the current earthly side of the Kingdom will need to be thrown out of the Kingdom

The Kingdom, in my opinion, is spiritual. Hence not visable to humans. But you have said as the scripture says. 

Matthew 13 : 41.

41  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,

Now, this scripture mentions 'that cause stumbling'.  This makes me think that, the cause of stumbling will be removed before the teaching work ends. I do not have any idea about translating scripture from 'original' language but, when i read many scriptures they are in the presnt tense. To remove the 'cause of stumbling' would seem to be to allow the good news to be preached properly. Other wise why does it not say, 'that have caused stumbling' ? 

Now a big question. Where, on Earth, is this 'earthly' part of the Kingdom ? 

The 'earthly' part of the Kingdom is surely those of the Anointed remnant. So, are those of the Anointed remnant, only in the JW Org ? Or are they individuals, or part of other religions ? 

I did have another thought, and yes it's just my own opinion.

I thought that the time we are living in could be a 'harvest' of the Anointed, whilst still being a sowing / watering of the 'earthly class'. so that when the True Anointed remnant 'shine as brightly as the sun', there might be a greater ingathering of 'earthly ones'.

(You and others may think I'm here to 'trick' people, or cause trouble. I'm not. I'm here looking for true answers. I'm trying to build on what i already beleive. Yes i can read scripture but then i only get me own viewpoint on it. I'm prepered to ask questions and read answers. ) 

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