Did Carnivores Exist Before the Flood of Noah's Day?

[xero]

13 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you clarify your position here with this post? Are you for God's creation, or are you criticizing God for his creation?

Did I stutter?

 

[Anna]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:47 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

JW theology says that God has the ability to see the future, but that he is discreet and considerate of people and their free will to such an extent that He does not want to look at the future of each individual and thus enter into someone's privacy. Certainly this kind of explanation has its flaws and does not explain why then God would deal with the future and prophecies if He does not want to see it in advance.

(bold mine) It explains that God can choose to see what he wants to see. In any case, even humans can predict a certain outcome based on certain behavior, how much more so a God who is a lot smarter than humans.. 

On 12/12/2021 at 1:47 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

The Bible is a book that is not always clear, not even in terms of theology, let alone to deal with such answers to the question in the subject. The text leaves too much room for conjecture. And to draw various conclusions that do not have to be an indication of accuracy. Only intellectual wandering, imagination and daily politics (daily ideologies).

I agree.

On 12/12/2021 at 1:47 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

If God created everything, then he also created organisms, many of which are invisible to the human eye, and which live in someone else's body and at the expense of their host. Some are useful to him, and some are able to torture and kill his host

My explanation, of course speculative, is that just like the human body breaks down and things stop working as they should (deterioration, cancer etc.) then in a similar manner the original purpose for things like viruses and parasites got screwed up. Not only did Adam and Eve lose perfection but the whole earth was cursed. I have no idea what purpose things like viruses or parasites would have had in the garden of Eden, but sometimes I wonder about other things (not necessarily to do with the Bible) and then when I find the answer I realize "of course!" The answer is out there, we just don't know it yet....

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Adam and Eve still maintained the diet chosen by God, as indicated in Genesis 3: 17-19.

 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”

These words say that God has cursed the earth/ground. He didn't curse the man. He didn't curse the animals. Cursing the earth, he said that thorns and thistles would grow.
There is something else to keep in mind with this. Not all plants (eaten by man) are full of thorns, and those we call weeds or are prickly have medicinal properties. After all, they are eaten by animals that give us milk, and from them man makes very fine food. So not everything is as bad as it may seem by reading these Bible verses.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Genesis Chapter 9

 Verse 2: The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 

This needs to be understood relatively. Because many people are killed or wounded by various types of animals. So, there are animals that are not really afraid of man. Mosquitoes are strong example for that.

Verse 3: Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Literally reading, only a man was given permission to eat everything alive around him. Animals are not mentioned in this decree.

Verses 4,5,6: But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. Whoever sheds human blood,  by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Ah, this is weird now. If someone sheds another man’s blood they will be called to account. How does God call man to account if he sheds another man's blood? How does he call to account an animal that kills a man and sheds his blood?

----------------------

Little picture about Noah... before and after Flood. 

This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. Gen 6:9

Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded[a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.  Gen 9:20

A pictures of a drunken Noah are not for WTJWorg publications, are they?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

It explains that God can choose to see what he wants to see.

It's the same with people, isn't it?  

[xero]

My thoughts on Jehovah w/regard to omniscience is that he designed the universe(material and immaterial) in his "head" prior to creating his son and did so in such a manner such that no matter what path free will might take, it would be perfect. Rather than inspecting quality into the creation, he designed it so that like a biological system engaging in apoptosis (cell death of "sinful" senescent cells), evil is removed and can leave no indelible marks.

[Dmitar]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

hese words say that God has cursed the earth/ground. He didn't curse the man. He didn't curse the animals. Cursing the earth, he said that thorns and thistles would grow.

This would be of course after the expulsion. I believe after the expulsion, fallen angels were introduced to man. Are you suggesting "death" not to be a curse upon man? Can you explain your position?

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Verse 3: Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

I believe you understand, this was my point. A point in time, where the animal Kingdom would look towards its own survival. How is that relative to after the expulsion and pre-flood? This understanding falls after the flood.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Little picture about Noah... before and after Flood. 

This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. Gen 6:9

Does this have anything to do with carnivores? 

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded[a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.  Gen 9:20

This observation would be after the flood. This would prove man was prone to sin, which you don't call a curse. Can you elaborate? 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Are you suggesting "death" not to be a curse upon man? Can you explain your position?

WTJWorg teaches that the deaths of Adam and Eve were a “punishment” for sin. In this literal expression of the Bible quote, God did not place a "curse" on Adam and Eve but a "punishment" for disobedience to the command. Of course, we can call any kind of punishment that is inflicted on us a "curse" or "bad luck" or whatever. Thus, according to a literal reading of the biblical text, death followed as a punishment for transgression (eating from a forbidden tree).
The text further says that God "cursed" the serpent, and not other animals. The text says that God placed, on top of the original threat of death punishment over Adam and Eve, an "additional punishment" that he did not mention the first time (pains in childbearing very severe, painful labor, desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you, cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it ...,)

So, what was all this described in the text of Genesis: punishment or curse? And what is the difference between the two concepts? In a terminological or ideological (religious) sense?

 

curse - noun; 

1) magical words that are said to cause trouble or bad luck for someone or the condition that results when such words are said

2) a cause of trouble or bad luck

curse - verb;

1) to call upon divine or supernatural power to send injury upon

2) to bring great evil upon

punishment - noun;

1) the act of punishing

2) suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

3) a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

4) severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

-----------------------------------

The mention of Noah in this topic shows that both types of behavior, exemplary and shameful, shown by one and the same person in different circumstances, can be understood as part of the human personality. One does not have to be “imperfect” to behave badly. A man can be “perfect” and do equally bad things.
Both states (perfect vs imperfect) offer no guarantee to anyone.
Did God have any expectations of the perfect things He created? Well, I guess he is. The additional "cursing" and "regret" that he created man in general, speaks of the terrible disappointment that God experienced. And now he has to reap what he sowed, doesn't he?

 

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg teaches that the deaths of Adam and Eve were a “punishment” for sin. In this literal expression of the Bible quote, God did not place a "curse" on Adam and Eve but a "punishment" for disobedience to the command.

Can you expand on this thought, since you believe I'm meant directly with man, and not its subsequent sin?

"God pronounces a curse upon mankind after Adam and Eve's sin. It is not that working is a curse; God had previously told them they were to dress and keep the Garden. Rather, the curse is the burden of providing for oneself in a world that has turned its back on God.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The mention of Noah in this topic shows that both types of behavior, exemplary and shameful, shown by one and the same person in different circumstances, can be understood as part of the human personality. One does not have to be “imperfect” to behave badly. A man can be “perfect” and do equally bad things.

Can you elaborate what this means to the animal kingdom?

[Srecko Sostar]

15 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Can you expand on this thought, since you believe I'm meant directly with man, and not its subsequent sin?

"God pronounces a curse upon mankind after Adam and Eve's sin. It is not that working is a curse; God had previously told them they were to dress and keep the Garden. Rather, the curse is the burden of providing for oneself in a world that has turned its back on God.

I agree that work/working (as a concept, principle, call ..,) is not a punishment or a curse.

The curse mentioned in Genesis is an expression of God’s anger and temperament at a given moment.

In some other evil deeds done by men, God was not so enraged nor did he act fast on the transgressors. For example, he gave people at least 120 years of life before the execution of the flood. The execution of Armageddon, interpreted by WTJWorg, did not take place within 2000 years. 

30 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Can you elaborate what this means to the animal kingdom?

The question is, have animals “lost” their "perfection" because of man? Is the sin of Adam and Eve transferable to animals or only to the human descendants of Adam and Eve? WTJWorg says that Adam’s children inherited sin from their parents. Where does it say that animals inherited human sin? If animals did not inherit human sin, if animals did not violate God’s command, then why would they “lose perfection”? WTJWorg says that animals were created mortal and that they died in Paradise. So, being mortal does not mean being sinful. So also, to be perfect means to be mortal.

[Dmitar]

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I agree that work/working (as a concept, principle, call ..,) is not a punishment or a curse.

The curse mentioned in Genesis is an expression of God’s anger and temperament at a given moment.

How are these two points not be considered, contradictory? 

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The question is, have animals “lost” their "perfection" because of man?

Since Adam was to tame the animal kingdom, what lost of perfection by man, be diminished toward the animal kingdom? What impact would that have for the animal kingdom to become carnivores?

[Srecko Sostar]

13 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I agree that work/working (as a concept, principle, call ..,) is not a punishment or a curse.

The curse mentioned in Genesis is an expression of God’s anger and temperament at a given moment.

How are these two points not be considered, contradictory? 

Let say this way. If we assumed that God expected Adam and Eve to do something in life, be it physical, intellectual, emotional or ideological/theoretical, then it cannot be under the burden of a “curse”.  Adam and Eve had to deal with the same “program of work” regardless of the change in their status before God. It is obvious that God made it difficult for them to carry out his own original plan. 

24 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Since Adam was to tame the animal kingdom, what lost of perfection by man, be diminished toward the animal kingdom? What impact would that have for the animal kingdom to become carnivores?

So have we not realized that no one has an argument for one thesis or another. Were they herbivores or carnivores (or both) at the time of their creation. Or that changed later (Flood time point). Regardless of the conclusion, it is evident that most living beings can adapt their way of life to conditions and changes in nature.

 

[Dmitar]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Let say this way. If we assumed that God expected Adam and Eve to do something in life, be it physical, intellectual, emotional or ideological/theoretical, then it cannot be under the burden of a “curse”.  Adam and Eve had to deal with the same “program of work” regardless of the change in their status before God. It is obvious that God made it difficult for them to carry out his own original plan. 

How does this square with the fact man was made perfect. Had man continued to be perfect in the Garden, how would they know what plants had illicit use? Then, there would be no such sinful placement upon man with such cursed ideology.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So have we not realized that no one has an argument for one thesis or another. Were they herbivores or carnivores (or both) at the time of their creation.

Is that not the topic of this thread, or have we moved on to another topic? You state, "at the time of their creation" as a point of reference. The animal kingdom was placed before man. Therefore, what's the criteria to be worked on?

1. Animal Creation 

2. Within the Garden 

3. After the expulsion and before the flood *

4. After the flood

All these points of reference, have been disguised. Just because, God created an animal with a set of canine fangs does not automatically mean their teeth were meant to consume other animals versus dense vegetation. However, this topic falls under point 3. Once again, unless the poster meant from creation, then, it wouldn't make sense that animals were carnivores within the Garden. Does the topic then relate to Creation of the animal kingdom and before man was created, or does the poster mean, after the expulsion and before the flood? These are two distinct points. Clarity is always a virtue.