Searching for the earliest mention of the Israelite god, "Yahweh" (Tetragrammaton) aka "Jehovah" in Modern English

[The Librarian]

See also: Jehovah

To potential commentators: Please note this topic thread is not to be about the pronunciation differences of opinion on Yahweh, YHWH, Jehovah, Jave, Jehova etc... for that please comment here

 

[Arauna]

Thank you - so it is clear that even in Sudan area there is this an inscription of the Name of the God of Israel dated to 1500 BCE.  Unfortunately the nation of Israel did not travel as nomads around this region after the exodus 1512 BCE because there was a clear understanding that they would never return to Egypt - and Sudan lies in the upper Egypt region.

They were brought into a covenant relationship with Jah three months after they left Egypt (if I remember correctly), which included that God would give them the land of milk an honey, which was promised to their forefather Abraham. Turning back to Egypt was a sin. Their worshiping animals as a god was also connected to the Egyptian religion........ Something hated by Jehovah.  If they retuned to this religion Jehovah would punish them -  Deut 28:68 " ⁶⁸  And Jehovah will certainly bring you back to Egypt by ship, by the way that I told you, ‘You will never see it again,’ and there you will have to sell yourselves to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”

Deut 17:16: ¹⁶ The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again."

Could it be possible that these nomads in Sudan were people who left Egypt before the exodus or after the exodus and moved around as nomads in this area, which was much more fertile at the time? They obviously were known to have Yahweh as their god - OR could it have been left over worship from patriarchal times with memories of Yahweh? In patriarchal times there were isolated pockets of peoples (from post-diluvial times) who still followed this worship (learnt from their forefathers.)

If one studies the maps of Israel's movements in the Arabian peninsula - they did not go back to Egypt at this time. The presenter is therefore inaccurate in his assumption that Israel wondered in the area of Sudan.  They would have had to pass through Egypt to get there or over the Red Sea again.

 

[Arauna]

Additionally - 

It was in Sudan! Upper Egypt! Israel would never have been travelling in this area! 

It is also written in very early hieroglyphs (and if you study Egyptology you will know that the pronunciations are based on the  later Coptic pronunciations of Egyptian.) Scholars still do not know how the early Egyptian language was pronounced! So the chance exists that they do not know the exact pronunciation. ...

The presenter in the video also has the wrong king. Amenotep III is too late! 

here is the dates of Amenotep in Wikipedia!   

Reign: 1391–1353 or; 1388–1351 BC (18th D...‎

Predecessor: Thutmose IV

Successor: Akhenaten

[Arauna]

While I liked the idea that the name was found which is so old,  I immediately saw the above  discrepancies regarding conflicting dates (wrong kung) and the geographical area he mentioned where the Israelites travelled through. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 7/7/2022 at 12:05 AM, The Librarian said:

To potential commentators: Please note this topic thread is not to be about the pronunciation differences of opinion on Yahweh, YHWH, Jehovah, Jave, Jehova etc... for that please comment here

I did enjoy this video. But is it genuine ? And is it proof of 'that' name ? 

[Chioke Lin]

I believe the mention of nomads would be inconsequential, since anyone after the flood would be considered nomads. We would also need to consider where the territory of Sudan was in relation to Ancient Egypt.

Fresh examination of the Egyptian evidence changes everything. Whether or not Yahweh could already have existed as a divine name near 1400 BCE, the reference here is not first of all to the god but to a specified unit of what an Egyptian scribe designated “Shasu-land.”35 The Egyptian evidence derives from a single military encounter, and the older version, from the reign of Amenhotep III, lacks any indication of a southern setting, leaving this to be reconstructed from the later Ramses II text. What is most important in any case is not the geography but the identification of Yhwȝ as part of the Shasu. This material is by far older than all other evidence, and if the name indeed matches the divine name, as many have concluded, no account of Yahweh’s roots can begin elsewhere. Further, my interpretation includes new observations that point discussion in previously unimagined directions, and the reader will benefit from knowing from the start what I have done with Yhwȝ. This is indeed “before Israel.”

Is this the oldest historical inscription found? Maybe, however, there's another team of archeologists that suggest their find of a curse tablet with the name of god YHWH is the oldest inscription found.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/science/4976118/tiny-hebrew-curse-tablet-god/

 

From this video. Of course, the Hebrews were looked at as enemies of Egypt. They were enslaved, so they would be Nomads of Yahweh and enemies to the Egyptian throne. 

The point should be, there is physical evidence for the name of God after writing was formed. After Noah exited the Ark, God's name was still in song. However, there should be no doubt who Noah was praising in song.

 

 

 

 

[The Librarian]

7 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I did enjoy this video. But is it genuine ? And is it proof of 'that' name ? 

Genuine? The guy showed you exactly how he got there... where it is, who first dug into it....the entire site... other examples and then the EXACT column with the exact words......

I will accept it as genuine. Just as I'm sure the White house columns exist although I've never touched them myself. I've only seen videos.

 

Proof of the 'that' name? How much clearer would you expect an enemy Pharoah to be?

I seriously doubt he would have been able to add a postscript for future English readers what the preferred pronunciation and lettering in a then unknown (not even created yet) language should be. This is why I am steering clear of the whole YHWH vs. Jehovah debate. (that is a different thread)

 

I find it fascinating just as it is.... some Pharoah in Ancient Egypt.... knew these same Israelites were enemies and even referred to them just as the Bible explained.

 

This alone invalidates SO many ludicrous claims about the origins of the "Name" that it is an incredible find.

 

What more do people need? 

[The Librarian]

39 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

I believe the mention of nomads would be inconsequential, since anyone after the flood would be considered nomads.

A sitting Pharoah building a temple with huge rock columns in Ancient Egypt would definitely call a large crowd of Israelites wandering around the world following a tent (tabernacle) "nomads"...... (not everyone would be considered nomads)

[The Librarian]

42 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

This material is by far older than all other evidence, and if the name indeed matches the divine name, as many have concluded, no account of Yahweh’s roots can begin elsewhere.

No one said the 'roots' started there in Sudan.  

I suspect this might be the oldest references (or one of) still in existence in physical form since we assume everything pre-flood was destroyed.

So unless someone finds Noah's ark... and a reference to YHWH in it.... this one seems to be the oldest. 

[The Librarian]

47 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

Is this the oldest historical inscription found? Maybe, however, there's another team of archeologists that suggest their find of a curse tablet with the name of god YHWH is the oldest inscription found.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/science/4976118/tiny-hebrew-curse-tablet-god/

that tablet could potentially be seen as the earliest known artifact to mention God in the Land of Israel.  

Interesting... but there is also the possibility it comes from much later. Whereas the Temple in Ancient Egypt is pretty rock solid... pun intended 😉

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, The Librarian said:

Genuine? The guy showed you exactly how he got there... where it is, who first dug into it....the entire site... other examples and then the EXACT column with the exact words......

I didn't mean the location or the column. I meant is his explanation correct, as @Arauna seems to dispute it.

If you look at @Arauna's comment dated Thursday 6.35 you will see that she has doubts.

I am now stuck in the middle as I'd love to believe that God's true name is YAHWEH but Arauna seems to think these early hieroglyphs are not being represented properly.  

14 hours ago, The Librarian said:

This alone invalidates SO many ludicrous claims about the origins of the "Name" that it is an incredible find.

This sentance needs an explanation but you'd probably want to do that elsewhere. Origins of which Name ? 

[Chioke Lin]

15 hours ago, The Librarian said:

(not everyone would be considered nomads)

All desert dwellers would. I don't see the distinction.