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4 hours ago, indagator said:

I hope this helps.

Quite a technical slant to this for me, nevertheless very useful.

My interest (seemingly confirmed) is around the fact that vowel pointing as such was/is not required to read  Biblical Hebrew.

For me this has a relevance to the OP in that the use of the divine name, held by some to be unpronounceable due to lack of vowels, would seem to not be limited at all by that poposition.

From a purely unacademic standpoint, the lack of a scripturally recorded controversy over the pronunciation and use of God's name by Jesus and his immediate disciples appears to argue strongly for the fact that they used it with relative impunity. There is no scripturally recorded censure for their use of the name in the face of other petty criticisms of their conduct (albeit major violations of Pharisaic and scribal tradition). However there is every indication that Jesus did use it extensively. Added of course is the fact that there would be no mystery at all to Jesus of the fact that God's name existed, should be used, and of course had a correct pronunciation.This would seem to indicate that a complete prohibition on speaking it at all post dates this period.

Edit: Just noticed and upvoted your separate posting on this issue.

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I have downloaded several that I never read. His papers on specific Bible-related chronology issues are interesting but I haven't completed them, and he keeps more papers coming. A quick word on

I am quoting here from that long sentence that begins the essay found here: http://areopage.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Gertoux_UseNameEarlyChristians.pdf (which contains copyrighted material)

I have recently, just today, communicated again with Gerard Gertoux requesting permission to quote extensive long passages from his book on this topic as a basis for a more in-depth forum discussion.

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12 hours ago, indagator said:

Great article!

I agree completely with the author of the article. At first it never occurred to me that Hebrew students should not to learn these rules, and I had often heard that the Masoretes were so superstitiously careful about the copying of texts that not a letter would be lost from text to text due to letter counting and the care given to every 'jot and tittle.' So they seemed sacrosanct.

One point struck me as incomplete:

  • 6) Once again, the Tiberian pointing in the MT is only one of three pointing systems (which indicates that there was disagreement over what was the "correct" pronunciation). Just because it happened to win broad acceptance does not mean that it should be uncritically accepted as authoritative.[21]

There were disagreements about pronunciation, but without more information about the interactions between the proponents of the three pointing systems, you could hardly say that the existence of three shows there were disagreements. You can have three systems that all look different but are just three different ways to say the same thing. 

And for various historical reasons, the three pointing systems could have all naturally evolved at about the same time, semi-independently, not strictly because there was disagreement over the correct pronunciation.

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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

For me this has a relevance to the OP in that the use of the divine name, held by some to be unpronounceable due to lack of vowels, would seem to not be limited at all by that proposition.

True. Although I never heard anyone specifically argue that the divine name would have been unpronounceable due to lack of written vowels. Most people learn to pronounce a language almost perfectly before they learn to read and spell most of the words in that language. Therefore pronunciation is possible not only without vowels, but even without consonants.

I think we are dealing with an argument that a specific word, the Divine Name, might have become unpronounceable through edict and superstitious practice. When a name is made holy, to some this would mean it is not touched. Just as holy ground was not to be touched. Just as a mundane use or function of the body would make Jewish individuals unsanctified to be near the presence of holiness. This idea is repeated often:

  • (Exodus 19:21-23) . . .Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go down and warn the people not to try to force their way through to look at Jehovah, or many of them will perish. 22 And let the priests who regularly come near to Jehovah sanctify themselves, so that Jehovah may not strike them.” 23 Moses then said to Jehovah: “The people are not able to come up to Mount Siʹnai because you already warned us, saying, ‘Set boundaries around the mountain, and make it sacred.’”

The following was still the proper practice of the Jewish rituals even in Jesus' day:

  • (Leviticus 22:2, 3) 2 “Tell Aaron and his sons that they should be careful how they handle the holy things of the Israelites and not profane my holy name regarding the things they are sanctifying to me. I am Jehovah. 3 Say to them, ‘Throughout your generations, any of your offspring who, while he is unclean, comes near to the holy things that the Israelites sanctify to Jehovah, that person will be cut off from before me. . . .

If this general idea were ever combined with the idea that the Name YHWH was a holy thing, not to be profaned, then it could be understood why such a superstition arose.

  • (Exodus 20:7) 7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes up His name in a worthless way.

So, I'd think that, as you already know,  the timing of this superstition and practice would still be very important to the claim that a lack of controversy argues that Jesus used the name. Your argument could end up with "circular" overtones, in some circles:

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

From a purely unacademic standpoint, the lack of a scripturally recorded controversy over the pronunciation and use of God's name by Jesus and his immediate disciples appears to argue strongly for the fact that they used it with relative impunity. There is no scripturally recorded censure for their use of the name in the face of other petty criticisms of their conduct (albeit major violations of Pharisaic and scribal tradition). However there is every indication that Jesus did use it extensively.

Of course, you already deal with the idea that the complete prohibition must post date this period of Jesus' ministry. I am also counting on the fact that it did. But it would be good to lay out the evidence that this is true, else the argument doesn't work very well.

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Added of course is the fact that there would be no mystery at all to Jesus of the fact that God's name existed, should be used, and of course had a correct pronunciation.This would seem to indicate that a complete prohibition on speaking it at all post dates this period.

What complicates the question even more is the fact that while Masoretic vowel pointing didn't really come into existence until perhaps 600 CE, it wasn't necessarily accurate for a period that was half-a-millennium prior to that. We hardly pronounce English the same as Shakespeare would have in any English-speaking country, and the wide variations exist in spite of many written rules about English since 1600, inter-generationally connected populations, and a lot of scribes and a high percentage of literate people in these countries. Hebrew, after every Jewish diaspora, had strikes against stable pronunciation at every turn. (As the Shibboleth incident points out, there were striking pronunciation differences between at least a couple of Israel's tribes just a few short years after they settled the land together?!?!?!)

But there was a kind of vowel pointing that had already been in use prior to the earliest of any extant Hebrew manuscript (DSS), and that's the vowel pointing that was done with added consonants (consonants reused to represent vowels). And those dual-use consonants were primarily Y,H,W. Another area of inconsistency that had already developed prior to any of our extant manuscripts is the final H sound. Therefore, it looks like one could reasonably argue that if one had to recreate a lost or unknown pronunciation, that one of the most ambiguous of such words in the entire Hebrew would be YHW-H.

Still there is hope. Gertoux, for example, deals directly with the fact that these could all represent vowels, not consonants. He, and others, also deal with the earliest possible history of comments about the Name after the NT Bible manuscripts themselves. And, although I never heard anyone make a point of it, we know that several priests and even Pharisees became believers in the first century. If anyone would know how the name was pronounced, it would have been people from this group, even if there already was a superstition about pronunciation by the average Joseph on the street.

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

unpronounceable due to lack of vowels

Probably better for me to have said "unpronounceable correctly". I have met several that assert the lack of knowing the correct vowels to be a reason for this, particularly clergymen and more studious evangelical supporters. (united by some sort of "deity of Christ" persuasion).

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But it would be good to lay out the evidence that this is true

Evidence for the timing of the prohibition is of interest I agree, and regarding the use of vowel pointing, hence my question to which @indagator replied.

However, the scriptural notion that Jesus would have been familiar with the appropriate pronunciation and use of His Father's name, and accustomed to using it accordingly, doesn't actually require evidence other than the statement made by the inspired apostle at John 1:19: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him"
and his recording of the report made by Jesus in prayer at John 17:26 : "I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them."

This for me is an even more fundamental factor than the secondary support provided by the absence of a scriptural record of controversy over the matter. I suppose the basic premise for me is that 'Jesus did use the Divine name correctly in the 1st Century, and no one fussed over the matter.'

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

it could be understood why such a superstition arose.

Yes I agree with this. Whilst the obscuring and removal of God'name from His own word smacks of Satanic intrigue and conspiracy, I can quite easily accept that some involved in this would have become so quite innocently and even with good motive. After all, "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness" 2Cor.11:14-15. Paul's sympathy for such ones was expressed at Rom.10:1: "I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge".

 

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43 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Probably better for me to have said "unpronounceable correctly". I have met several that assert the lack of knowing the correct vowels to be a reason for this

And in this particular case there could even have been a lack of knowing the correct consonants. Although this problem is mostly solvable, but not easily, and not with 100% confidence. 

Of course, this has nothing to do with the difference in J, or Y, or I when used as the initial consonant, nor anything to do with the difference between W or V. I would consider initial I,J,Y to be completely equivalent, and W and V to be completely equivalent, too. Jahve, Jahweh, Yahwe, Yahveh, Yahweh are all exactly the same word for purposes of this discussion (imo), just as Yehowah and Jehovah would be exactly the same word.

In truth, there would have been correct and proper differences in the pronunciations of vowels, too, even among Hebrew speakers in the first century. For example, a Galilean's accent (NWT fn) would give him away in Jerusalem.

  • (Matthew 26:73) 73 After a little while, those standing around came up and said to Peter: “Certainly you are also one of them, for in fact, your [ACCENT] dialect gives you away.”

 

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2 hours ago, Gone Away said:

However, the scriptural notion that Jesus would have been familiar with the appropriate pronunciation and use of His Father's name, and accustomed to using it accordingly, doesn't actually require evidence other than the statement made by the inspired apostle at John 1:19: "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him"
and his recording of the report made by Jesus in prayer at John 17:26 : "I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them."

I agree that John 17:26 must have been one of the literal ways in which John 1:19 was fulfilled. With the Hebrew Scriptures as the entire foundation upon which Jewish faith should have come to include faith in Jesus Christ, there were constant references to OT fulfillments that were known to have contained the Divine Name. Hundreds of references to the OT are found in the NT and it would have still been common knowledge that these included direct references to the Divine Name, even for those who would not themselves pronounce it (assuming that kyrios and theos, etc., were already contained in some of the first century manuscripts of the LXX from which Jesus may have read.) 

But we can't forget that one of the arguments some scholars will throw back at us is the idea that goes in reverse of the above: that John 17:26 was fulfilled by John 1:19. In other words, that the term "your name" with reference to God was just another way to reference God. (So that Jesus made God's name known by making God known.) We already use the argument ourselves that "name" can mean the person, or the person's reputation, or the person's representation, when we come across verses like: 

  • (John 17:6-12) 6 “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. . . . 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me. . . . Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me. . .
  • (John 16:23, 24) . . .Most truly I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for a single thing in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.
  • (Matthew 28:19) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and [in the name] of the Son and [in the name] of the holy spirit,

  • (Acts 3:15, 16) . . .the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses. 16 And through his name, and by our faith in his name, this man whom you see and know has been made strong.. . .

We don't have faith in the pronunciation of the consonants and vowels of the name "J-E-S-U-S" but we have faith in the person, the representation, and the reputation of Jesus. With reference to God, this argument could be doubled as God himself was already known as "The NAME" (Ha-Shem) even prior to the first century. See a possible Biblical example in Lev 24:11.

  • (Leviticus 24:11) The son of the Israelite woman began to abuse the Name and to curse it.

And of course, this idea might have a bearing on our understanding of the following:

  • (Acts 4:6-18) . . ., 7 and they stood them in their midst and began to inquire: “By what power or in whose name did YOU do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: “ . . .10  in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, . . . whom God raised up from the dead, by this one [footnote shows that the Greek actually says "by this name"] does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” . . . 17 Nevertheless, in order that it may not be spread abroad further among the people, let us tell them with threats not to speak anymore upon the basis of this name to any man at all.” 18 With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus.
  • (Acts 8:14-17) . . .they dispatched Peter and John to them; 15 and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. 16 For it had not yet fallen upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they went laying their hands upon them, and they began to receive holy spirit.
  • (Acts 9:14-21) 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to put in bonds all those calling upon your name.” [Jesus] 15 But the Lord [Jesus] said to him: “Be on your way, because this man [Paul] is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.” [Jesus] 17 So An·a·niʹas went off and entered into the house, and he laid his hands upon him and said: “Saul, brother, the Lord, the Jesus that appeared to you on the road over which you were coming, has sent me forth, in order that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.” . . . 20 and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God. 21 But all those hearing him gave way to astonishment and would say: “Is this not the man that ravaged those in Jerusalem who call upon this name, and that had come here for this very purpose. . .

And of course:

  • (Ephesians 1:20, 21) . . .in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.
  • (Philippians 2:9-11) . . .For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, [Greek just says "the name above every name"] 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. . .
  • (2 Thessalonians 1:12) 12 in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in YOU, . . .
  • (Hebrews 1:4) . . .So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.
  • (Revelation 2:17) . . .and I will give him a white pebble, and upon the pebble a new name written which no one knows except the one receiving it.’
  • (Revelation 3:12) “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

There are plenty of other and better examples showing that "name" clearly means "reputation" (Revelation 3:1, etc) but I wanted to include especially those that would become difficult to explain about "the name of Jesus" if it were literally the term "Jesus" (or a variation) that was meant. To be consistent, then, some of the references to the "name of Jehovah" in both OT and NT cannot simply mean the term "Jehovah" or another variation of it.

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GA and JWI: I'm glad you found that online SBL article helpful. JWI, you are certainly correct that language is primarily a spoken phenomenon and whatever writing system is applied to try and capture a given language, it (1) will have limitations and (2) can become problematic as the real, spoken, language continues to evolve.

JWI said "I think we are dealing with an argument that a specific word, the Divine Name, might have become unpronounceable through edict and superstitious practice." This is true in the long run, but as Shaw brings out, both the passage in Philo's Embassy to Gaius and the one in Josephus' War show that people of Jesus' day had easy access to the pronunciation of the divine name, so at that time its pronunciation was known and recognized.

GA, thanks for noting my separate posting. If one is concerned with the form of the name that Jesus and the apostles used, Shaw's book is the best thing available. As JWI has noted in substance, one of the limitations of the WTS on this issue is their heavy focus on Hebrew (in JWI's words, their failure to understand that the Hebrew tetragrammatons in LXX manuscripts show a non-pronunciation of the name by the manuscripts' producers, the opposite of what the organization officially concludes). In spirit this is the same deficiency found in the works of Furuli and Gertoux who continue to emphasize Hebrew. One needs to move beyond that and look at the evidence in Aramaic, the native language of Jesus and the apostles, as it is presented in Greek, the very thing we see so often in the pages of the New Testament itself: Mt 5:22, 27:46; Mk 5:41, 7.34, 11:9, 14:36; John 20:16; Rom 8:15; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 4:6.

As I stated in my recent OP, "the masses, among whom Jesus worked and from whom came the apostles and other disciples of him, freely used the name as Yaho in Aramaic. This then shows up as Iao in the written Greek sources," and "this form of the divine name [Ιαω], vocalized as "Ya-ho," was the active pronunciation of the divine name when Jesus and the apostles lived. There is considerable evidence for this."

Again, if one really wants to understand the situation regarding the divine name as it was in Jesus' day, see here:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/58370-the-latest-work-on-the-divine-name/

Whether JWs realize it or not, Shaw's concluding statement to his chapter 9 actually supports their use of "Jehovah" for God's name today, not because it somehow closely represents how the Hebrew name was really pronounced, say, in Isaiah’s day, but because a pronunciation of the name had come about that was related to its original one, but was different, an "unofficial" or possibly "inaccurate" one. Consider his words:

"In sum, two things are evident: the God of the ancient Israelites had his more educated worshipers who during and after the [R]estoration felt that not verbalizing his name was a way to honor him. Eventually their view prevailed when it comes to the issue of the divine name in the biblical text and in Judaism in general. However, the same God also had another group, very likely less educated and unsophisticated, who felt the opposite and must have so freely expressed this, in the eyes of some, "unofficial" or perhaps "improper," form of the name—Ιαω—that the composers of the world's first Bible dictionaries could use it regularly to expound the meaning of biblical characters' names because their copies of the LXX contained it. Furthermore, pagan writers could use this name expecting their far-flung audience to understand what they were talking about. Obviously this implies there were plenty of everyday Jews still using Ιαω."

BTW, JWI, I loved your "quick word" comment posted at 5:22 AM last Friday on this thread. That's the spirit. Of course, when dealing with others, it needs to be tempered with the caution expressed at Luke 17:1-2, but for those who can handle it, truth needs to be pursued.

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus made God's name known by making God known.

Quite true. In fact, that is the most common response I have received from clergymen I have met in ministry when referencing any of the scriptures that speak of Jesus making God's name known.

Another common response it that the name of God refers to the authority of the Creator, in the sense implied by John 17:24 and many other scriptures (as you point out).

I have found theses views easily developed however by mentioning that whilst a law officer's warrant card may well be a sign of authorisation and authority, if it does not include a name to identify the individual, and also a signature of authorisation from one suitably qualified, then it carries little weight.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

To be consistent, then, some of the references to the "name of Jehovah" in both OT and NT cannot simply mean the term "Jehovah" or another variation of it.

Absolutely. And, as the sons of Sceva learned, similar reasoning could be applied to the name of Jesus.

 

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4 hours ago, tromboneck said:

I call it good ol' fashioned "false humility"

For some indeed, but for all, it becomes "Self righteousness". That is, making up your own rules and keeping them diligently as a subtitute for doing what Jehovah requires. Rom.10:3: "For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."

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On 7/17/2018 at 1:15 AM, JW Insider said:

I never heard anyone specifically argue that the divine name would have been unpronounceable due to lack of written vowels.

Interesting. Seems to be a view amongst some I have met, particularly evangelicals, but also a number of clergymen from a variety of denominations. Granted, these encounters were all in England, but the individuals were from quite a variety of nations.

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    • Joshua 2 ---> 1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. 3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast. 5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. 6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them. 7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest. 8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. 9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest. 10 Then Joshua commanded the officers of the people, saying, 11 Pass through the host, and command the people, saying, Prepare you victuals; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which the Lord your God giveth you to possess it. 12 And to the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh, spake Joshua, saying, 13 Remember the word which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, saying, The Lord your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land. 14 Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men of valour, and help them; 15 Until the Lord have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the Lord your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the Lord's servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising. 16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that thou commandest us we will do, and whithersoever thou sendest us, we will go. 17 According as we hearkened unto Moses in all things, so will we hearken unto thee: only the Lord thy God be with thee, as he was with Moses. 18 Whosoever he be that doth rebel against thy commandment, and will not hearken unto thy words in all that thou commandest him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.
    • 6 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in. 2 And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour. 3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. 4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. 5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him. 6 And Joshua the son of Nun called the priests, and said unto them, Take up the ark of the covenant, and let seven priests bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the Lord. 7 And he said unto the people, Pass on, and compass the city, and let him that is armed pass on before the ark of the Lord. 8 And it came to pass, when Joshua had spoken unto the people, that the seven priests bearing the seven trumpets of rams' horns passed on before the Lord, and blew with the trumpets: and the ark of the covenant of the Lord followed them. 9 And the armed men went before the priests that blew with the trumpets, and the rereward came after the ark, the priests going on, and blowing with the trumpets. 10 And Joshua had commanded the people, saying, Ye shall not shout, nor make any noise with your voice, neither shall any word proceed out of your mouth, until the day I bid you shout; then shall ye shout. 11 So the ark of the Lord compassed the city, going about it once: and they came into the camp, and lodged in the camp. 12 And Joshua rose early in the morning, and the priests took up the ark of the Lord. 13 And seven priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the Lord went on continually, and blew with the trumpets: and the armed men went before them; but the rereward came after the ark of the Lord, the priests going on, and blowing with the trumpets. 14 And the second day they compassed the city once, and returned into the camp: so they did six days. 15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they rose early about the dawning of the day, and compassed the city after the same manner seven times: only on that day they compassed the city seven times. 16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the Lord hath given you the city. 17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the Lord: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. 18 And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it. 19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. 20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. 22 But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her. 23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. 24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord. 25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho. 26 And Joshua adjured them at that time, saying, Cursed be the man before the Lord, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it. 27 So the Lord was with Joshua; and his fame was noised throughout all the country.
    • As referenced in the Bible Book of Joshua
    • 19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. 10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it. 14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. 15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. 17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. 18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord: 19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: 20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. 21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. 22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. 23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt. 30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
    • 3 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years. 2 And he wrought evil in the sight of the Lord; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made. 3 Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom. 4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool. 5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. 6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel. 7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses. 8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom. 9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them. 10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab! 11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord, that we may enquire of the Lord by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah. 12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the Lord is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him. 13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab. 14 And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee. 15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him. 16 And he said, Thus saith the Lord, Make this valley full of ditches. 17 For thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts. 18 And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. 19 And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. 20 And it came to pass in the morning, when the meat offering was offered, that, behold, there came water by the way of Edom, and the country was filled with water. 21 And when all the Moabites heard that the kings were come up to fight against them, they gathered all that were able to put on armour, and upward, and stood in the border. 22 And they rose up early in the morning, and the sun shone upon the water, and the Moabites saw the water on the other side as red as blood: 23 And they said, This is blood: the kings are surely slain, and they have smitten one another: now therefore, Moab, to the spoil. 24 And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country. 25 And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kirharaseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it. 26 And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not. 27 Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
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