By Bible Speaks
Would You Walk on this Iceberg?
Amazing Photo! Amazing God!
“Jehovah answered Job out of the windstorm: 2 “Who is this who is obscuring my counsel
And speaking without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself, please, like a man;
I will question you, and you inform me. 4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand. 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of battle and war?"
(Job 38:1-7, 22-23).
Being stuck out at sea among the icebergs and sea ice can make you pretty restless and uneasy. Last July on an expedition in south east greenland we spent 6 days marooned in an ice flow at the mercy of the elements. @mikelibecki and @ethan_pringle seen here getting in a little exercise, jumping ship to climb this #iceberg. My favorite thing about this photograph is that this was Ethan’s first time ever wearing crampons and ice climbing, a very unlikely place for a lesson! @andy_mann @connor_seybert @3stringsproductions @mountainhardwear @dell @djigloba
By JOHN BUTLER
Luke 10 v 21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.
This seems to show that 'higher education' was not needed to learn, understand and teach, the truth from God, at that time.
It seems to be a well know thing within the JW Org and by people outside of same, that JW's are 'told' not to aim for higher education. I say told, although some will say strongly advised, with a possible caution of being disfellowshipped.
Now I've noticed on here recently that deep conversation about many things has been and is taking place. Politics earthwide. religious beliefs earthwide and the latest thing seems to be Evolution (from a very deep standpoint ). ( These things were never taught to me at school. )
I left school at 15 years old, as soon as I was able, for reasons previously mentioned. Here in UK now teenagers have to remain in education until they are 18. The three years from 15 to 18 seem to me to be almost 'higher education', but compulsory. How much they learn at school now I've no idea.
My feelings are, and yes ok i cannot put proof to these feelings, but, my feelings are, that all forms of higher education are advised against by the GB and the JW Org. Some of you may have some proof of this in writing. So, where does this leave JW's ?
If a young person leaves school to go into full time 'service' ministry, they do not get a higher education. Their 'basic' education may have been just that, very basic. They are then not 'qualified' to talk to others on a higher education level, and this might even be to the point of not understanding such things as are being discussed on here lately.
( Much of what is being discussed leaves me miles behind. I'm a very simple person. Plus at 69 I forget more than i learn. Yes I do write lots of notes and have books for recording different things, but the mind boggles. )
With respect for those I knew and loved in the past, within my ex congregation, many of them were 'simple country folk'. And I think Tom said about not having the time or inclination to do research online or or otherwise. So let us go back to the scripture at the top.
So many questions. Does God reveal more to those of a lesser education ? Is higher education and greater knowledge a disadvantage when wanting to serve God properly?
Or is it that those of higher education are too stubborn to learn God's way ? Too proud maybe ?
There are many things that the Bible doesn't tell us. is that deliberate ? Does God want to keep it simple for us ? So, should we pursue more knowledge about worldly things ?
A problem may occur when talking to others about God, in that they may have more knowledge on a certain subject than we do and therefore believe something different. Should we then educate ourselves to their level on the same subject, or just pass them by ? Bearing in mind the scripture at the top of this page.
There has to be a balance of course. But my feelings are that the GB would like JW's to be educated only by the Watchtower studies and by the 'workbook' evening meeting studies. And of course by personal Bible reading. But do JW's do as they are told in this respect or do a lot of them 'educate themselves', or take further education elsewhere ?
C'est moi le Potier dit Jéhovah Dieu
Tu es mon vase d'argile ! C'est moi qui t'ai modelé, façonné,
Une merveille au creux de ma main.
Tu n’es pas encore achevé, tu es en train de prendre la "forme" de mon Fils.
Voici que tu te désoles et que tu désespères
Parce que tu as pris quelques fêlures au contact des autres.
Tu t'es heurté, tu as été ébréché
Tu as même pu tomber par terre, te briser et tomber en mille morceaux
Fêlures, éraflures, lézardes, brisures, cassures, ratures...
N'oublie pas, c'est ta condition de vase.
Si je t'avais rangé dans un placard à vaisselle
Tu ne connaîtrais pas ces heurts de la vie
Mais tu ne servirais à rien ni à personne, tu serais un vase inutile !
Moi, dit Dieu, j'aime les vieux vases, un peu usés, un peu ébréchés.
Ils ont toute une histoire, et toi, tu voudrais être lisse comme un nouveau-né ?
Je te connais, ô toi que j'ai façonné, pétri avec tant d'amour
Je ne voudrais pas que tu te désoles de tes ratées
Tu es fait de boue et de lumière, tu es fait pour servir !
A ne regarder que tes failles, tes faiblesses et tes chutes
Tu te centres encore trop sur toi-même
Et tu restes prisonnier de tes failles !
C'est moi le Potier et je m'y connais dans l'art de reprendre un vase. Laisse-toi faire !
Avec mes doigts d’artiste, j'arrive toujours à rendre plus beau ce qui n'était que fêlure, brisure, cassure.
Je suis l’Esprit Créateur, ne l'oublie pas. Je crée ! Je mets la vie ! Je donne le souffle !
Je suis le Potier ! C'est moi qui moule, qui pétris, qui donne la "forme"
Toi, mon vase d'argile, Viens te glisser au creux de mes mains paternelles et maternelles
Laisse-toi pétrir entre mes doigts d'artiste.
Abandonne-toi longuement à mon travail de potier.
Expose-moi tes fêlures, tes brisures, tes cassures ! J'aime faire du neuf, j'aime te regarder
Voici que je te réchauffe, ô toi mon argile
A force de te pétrir, je te communique ma chaleur, ma sueur,
mon souffle, mon intimité, ma chaude tendresse.
C'est moi le Potier, viens et n'aie plus peur.
Chaque fois que tu retombes dans ces fautes que tu ne voudrais pas commettre
Je te dis : Le pardon est là !
Viens et continuons ensemble
J’aime te regarder, voir les efforts que tu fais et tout le mal que tu te donnes.
J'en éprouve grande joie et tu réjouis mon cœur
Je vois combien tu te transformes.
A l'abri de tes regards Je te modèle
A l'image du Fils bien-Aimé
Tout ce que je te demande
C'est de venir toujours et à nouveau après chaque chute
Entre mes mains pour me donner la joie de te remodeler.
Allons, n'aie pas peur C'est moi le Potier
By JOHN BUTLER
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"
2 Timothy 3 v 16
Was this in it's way a small prophecy ?
The 2nd book of Timothy was written 65 C.E. However 1,2,3, John and Revelation were written much later.
So we have two points, 1. The writings were not complete when Paul wrote that information. 2, The Bible had not been constructed so no idea would have been formed as to what the Bible would contain.
Were there other writings ? Would they be considered as Scripture?
It seems that Paul was inspired to write that "All scripture is inspired.... "
By JOHN BUTLER
The JW Org / GB say that Armageddon is very close. They also say that Jehovah is speeding up the work in these 'last days'.
Now, it seems I'm not one for knowing truth from lies, so people keep telling me, but this webpage/site seemed interesting to me.
It seems to show more of a decrease in JW's, but more importantly it seems to show more of a lack of faith, or lack of action / 'works' of JW's. It also shows a large number of people leaving the JW Org.
If this video or page has been used before then I apologise for any repeat. But I thought it was of interest.
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By JOHN BUTLER
This topic is aimed toward asking ADMIN these questions. I do not know who Admin are. Some folks here seem to have made friends with Admin where as I just use the forum.
Why was Jehovah's Witnesses Private Club set up ?
Should it be 999% about Jehovah's Witnesses and their Organisation, which would include the GB ?
Am I therefore wrong when i only talk about Jehovah's Witnesses and have no interest in other religions ?
There are those on here that regularly 'bite my ears off' because i only talk about the JW's, but I thought that was the intention of this forum.
Admin please clarify these matters for me, please ......
By The Librarian
What principles do Jehovah’s Witnesses keep in mind when making decisions about secular education?
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By JW Insider
I have recently, just today, communicated again with Gerard Gertoux requesting permission to quote extensive long passages from his book on this topic as a basis for a more in-depth forum discussion. The Amazon link to his book is here:
The Name of God Y.eH.oW.aH Which is pronounced as it is Written I_Eh_oU_Ah
A subset of that same material is also found here:
Gerard Gertoux has responded that it would be better to use https://www.academia.edu/14029315 as it is a free version that all of us can download, and it has no copyright.
Since this topic comes up now and then, under various topic headings, I hope that some might find it useful to understand the basics of his argument. He assumes a lot of background and expertise that many do not have, but the material is accessible enough so that we can all learn a lot about the topic and even about the related background material at the same time.
Out of respect for the author's wishes, let's not make extensive quotes from the book or the "areopage.net" link above except where fair use might allow. And even the "academia.edu" content should only be quoted in reasonable portions to the extent that it is needed for discussion. I have also mentioned to the author that I will do my best to keep the topic from devolving into a discussion of the Trinity. I will try to keep the discussion on topic, which also means that it should not become a free-for-all with critiques of the New World Translation or the persons who may have worked on it.
The topic will not revolve only around Gerard Gertoux's writing, but it's a good place to start. Feel free to bring in evidence from other authors and researchers if it is related to the questions. As a reminder the evidence we discuss should focus especially on the following questions:
Did Jesus and the apostles and disciples of the first century use the Divine Name? Did they read it aloud when they came to it in the OT Scriptures? Did they include it (and therefore expect it to be used aloud) in the writings of the NT? [And, of course, feel free to use the terms OT and NT as abbreviations for "Hebrew Scriptures" and "Christian Greek Scriptures" respectively.]
By The Librarian
Part of a series on:
Heb., Shad·dai′, plural to denote excellence, occurs 41 times and is translated “Almighty” or “Almighty One.” (Ge 49:25; Ps 68:14) The corresponding word in the Christian Greek Scriptures is Pan·to·kra′tor and means “Almighty,” or, “Ruler Over All; One Who Has All Power.” (2Co 6:18; Re 15:3) The expression ʼEl Shad·dai′, “God Almighty,” occurs seven times in M and indicates that Jehovah has irresistible power.—Ge 17:1; Ex 6:3.
ANCIENT OF DAYS.
Aram., ʽAt·tiq′ Yoh·min′, meaning “One Advanced [or, Aged] in Days.”—Da 7:9, 13, 22.
Heb., Boh·reʼ′. (Isa 40:28; 42:5) GRAND CREATOR.—Ec 12:1.
Heb., ʼAv; Gr., Pa·ter′; Lat., Pa′ter; as Creator (Isa 64:8); as giver of everlasting life to all those who exercise faith. (Joh 5:21) The expression “Holy Father” is used exclusively with reference to Jehovah.—Joh 17:11. Compare Mt 23:9.
Heb., ʼEl, without the definite article, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.”—Ge 14:18.
Heb., ʼEloh′ah, singular of ʼElo·him′, without the definite article. It occurs 41 times in Job and 16 times in other books.—Job 3:4.
Heb., ʼElo·him′, without the definite article. In The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, Chicago and New York, 1905, p. 208, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in אלהים [ʼElo·him′] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . אלהים [ʼElo·him′] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God. It ranks with the plurals אדנים [ʼadho·nim′, “master”] and בעלים [beʽa·lim′, “owner; lord”], employed with reference to human beings.” ʼElo·him′ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator and occurs 35 times in the creation account.—Ge 1:1-2:4.
GOD OF GODS (LORD OF LORDS).
De 10:17; Da 2:47.
GOD OF TRUTH.
Heb., ʼEl ʼemeth′, indicating that Jehovah is true and faithful in all his dealings.—Ps 31:5.
Aram., ʼElah′ rav.—Da 2:45.
Gr., ma·ka′ri·os The·os′.—Compare 1Ti 1:11.
Heb., ʼElo·him′ qedho·shim′.—Jos 24:19.
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY.
Heb., qa·dhohsh′, qa·dhohsh′, qa·dhohsh′. This expression as applied to Jehovah includes holiness, cleanness, purity and sacredness to the superlative degree.—Isa 6:3; Re 4:8.
INDEFINITELY LASTING GOD.
Heb., ʼEl ʽoh·lam′.—Ge 21:33.
Heb., Moh·reh′. (Job 36:22) GRAND INSTRUCTOR.—Isa 30:20.
I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.
See Ex 3:14 ftn.
Heb., Qan·naʼ′, meaning “Insisting on Exclusive Devotion.”—Ex 34:14; see also Eze 5:13.
Ge 2:4. See App 1A.
JEHOVAH OF ARMIES (JEHOVAH OF HOSTS) (LORD OF HOSTS).
(This expression with minor variations occurs 283 times in M. It also occurs twice in the Christian Greek Scriptures where Paul and James quoted or alluded to prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. (See Ro 9:29; Jas 5:4.) The expression “Jehovah of armies” indicates the power held by the Ruler of the universe, who has at his command vast forces of spirit creatures.—Ps 103:20, 21; 148:2; Isa 1:24; Jer 32:17, 18. See App 1E.
KING OF ETERNITY.
Gr., Ba·si·leus′ ton ai·o′non.—Compare 1Ti 1:17.
KING OF THE NATIONS.
Heb., Me′lekh hag·goh·yim′.—Jer 10:7.
Heb., ʼElo·him′, with the plural adjective chai·yim′ (De 5:26); or with the singular adjective chai (Isa 37:4, 17); Gr., The·os′ zon.—Compare Heb 3:12.
Gr., Me·ga·lo·sy′ne, denoting his lofty, superior position. (Compare Heb 1:3; 8:1.) MAJESTIC ONE. Heb., ʼAd·dir′.—Isa 33:21.
Heb., ʽO·seh′. (Ps 115:15; Jer 10:12) GRAND MAKER.—Isa 54:5.
Heb., ʽEl·yohn′.—De 32:8; Ps 9:2; 83:18.
MOST HOLY ONE.
Heb., Qedho·shim′, plural to denote excellence and majesty.—Pr 30:3.
OVERSEER OF YOUR SOULS.
Heb., hats·Tsur′. (De 32:4) Figuratively used to describe Jehovah’s qualities as perfect, just, faithful, righteous and upright; as father (De 32:18); as a stronghold (2Sa 22:32; Isa 17:10); as a secure height and refuge (Ps 62:7; 94:22); as a source of salvation.—De 32:15; Ps 95:1.
Heb., Moh·shi′aʽ (Isa 43:11; 45:21); Gr., So·ter′.—Compare Lu 1:47.
Ps 23:1; 1Pe 2:25.
Ge 15:2; Lu 2:29. See App 1E.
Aram., ʽEl·yoh·nin′.—Da 7:18, 22, 27.
THE [TRUE] GOD.
Heb., ha·ʼElo·him′.—See App 1F.
THE [TRUE] GOD.
Heb., ha·ʼEl′.—See App 1G.
THE [TRUE] LORD.
Heb., ha·ʼA·dhohn′. -
BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY
Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.
Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.
iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).
Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:
i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’
How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).
5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
Isaiah 9:6 - Is Jesus ‘a Mighty God’ or ‘Jehovah God’?
‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God (410), the Everlasting
Father, the Prince of Peace’.
Watchtower teaching: JWs concede that Jesus is a ‘mighty God’, but they are adamant that
He is not Almighty God as Jehovah is. They think that Christ is one of lesser gods.
Bible teaching: The Bible shows that both Jesus and Jehovah are called ‘Mighty God’.
Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ in:
a) ‘The remnant of Israel . . . shall stay upon Jehovah, the remnant of Jacob shall return . .
unto the mighty God (410)’. (Isaiah 10:20,21).
b) ‘the Great, the Mighty God (410), Jehovah of hosts, is his name’. (Jeremiah 32:18).
Because Jehovah and Jesus are both called ‘Mighty God’, this proves Christ’s equality with
God the Father.
Ask: Since Jehovah is called ‘Mighty God’ (Isaiah 10:21) just as Jesus is called ‘Mighty
God’ (Isaiah 9:6), doesn’t this mean that the Watchtower is wrong in saying that ‘Mighty
God’ means a lesser deity?
Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are ‘Mighty God’, then what does this tell you about Jesus’
Ask: If both Jesus and Jehovah are equally ‘Mighty God’, then isn’t this two members of
Note: There is only one Mighty God in heaven:
a) ‘I am the first and I am the last; beside me there is no God (430)’. (Isaiah 44:6b)
b) ‘Is there a God (433) besides Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any’.(Isaiah 44:8b).
c) ‘I am the Lord (YHWH), and there is none else,there is no God beside me’(Isaiah 45:5a)
The NWT translates John 1:1 as ‘the word was a god’.
Isaiah 44:8b shows this to be false by denying the existence of ‘a god’ other than Jehovah.
The phrase ‘Mighty God’ is ‘Elohim’ in Hebrew, meaning ‘Fullness of power’, portraying
Christ as the ‘powerful Governor of the universe’.
Notice that ‘Elohim (430)’ is also used to describe Jehovah God as:
i) ‘The God (430) of the whole earth’. (Isaiah 54:5)
ii) ‘The God (430) of all flesh’. (Jeremiah 32:27)
iii) ‘I prayed to the God (430) of heaven’. (Nehemiah 2:4)
iv) ‘For the Lord (YHWH) your God (430) is God (430) of gods....a great God.’(Deut 10:17)
In Isaiah 40:3 Jesus is called both Jehovah (3068) and Elohim (430) in the same verse:
‘Prepare ye the way of the Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God (430)’.
Mark 1:3 and John 1:23 apply Jehovah here to Jesus.
Question: What is meant by calling Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
Since Jesus is not the Father, why does Isaiah call Jesus ‘Everlasting Father’?
Answer: Jesus considers the Father as someone other than Himself over 200 times in the NT.
‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6 means ‘Father of eternity’.
JEHOVAH’S NAME or JESUS CHRIST’S NAME.
The Watchtower teaches that God’s true Name is Jehovah. They teach that:
‘Sometime during the second or third Century CE, the scribes removed the tetragrammaton (JHWH) from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with κυριος (Lord) or θεος (God)’. Reference Edition of NWT, 1984, p 1564.
The Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) proves that Jesus is Jehovah God.
On page 10,11 of the 1985 KIT, under the heading ‘Restoring the Divine Name, Jehovah’ we read: ‘the evidence (what evidence?) is that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with (no proof) . . . Sometime during the second or third centuries CE, the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was eliminated from the Greek texts by copyists (no proof).
Instead of YHWH they substituted the words Kurios (‘Lord’) and Theos (‘God’).’
Note: This is a lie. There is no historical or manuscript evidence or evidence of protest to support this claim. Somebody would have protested such a change.No one did. It never happened.
The New World Translation (NWT) is the JW perversion of the Bible made to support their false doctrines. It inserts the name ‘Jehovah’ in the New Testament in the place of God (θεος=theos) or Lord (κυριος =kurios) on 237 occasions, where they believe it refers to God the
Father. They often refer to Hebrew translations of the NT to see where this has been done.
These are footnoted as J1 to J27. Their dishonesty and deceit is shown by their failure to translate these words as ‘Jehovah’ when it refers to Christ. (eg: Philippians 2:11; Hebrews 1:10).
JWs say that the proper use of God’s ‘correct’ name (Jehovah) is absolutely essential to one’s salvation. They quote from their NWT:
‘Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.’ Romans 10:13 (NWT).
‘People will have to know that I am Jehovah.’ Ezekiel 39:6 (NWT).
JWs believe that because they are the only group who refer to God by His ‘true’ name, Jehovah, they are the only true followers of God.
Their claim is false for these reasons:
1) Jehovah is not a Biblical term. It is a man-made term. The Old Testament has YHWH because the original Hebrew only had consonants. Jews feared taking God’s name in vain, so when they publicly read YHWH, they would pronounce it ‘Adonai’ (Lord).
Later they inserted the vowels from Adonai (a-o-a) into the consonants YHWH to give YAHOWAH, which became Jehovah. Hence, the word Jehovah comes from a consonantvowel
combination from YHWH and Adonai.
2) No-one knows for sure the original correct pronunciation of YHWH. Hence we cannot insist on ‘Jehovah’ as being correct.
3) Jesus never addressed the Father as Jehovah in the New Testament. If JWs are correct that God must be always called Jehovah, then Jesus was sinning by not calling God ‘Jehovah’. When the NWT puts Jehovah in Jesus’ mouth in the NT, it contradicts all the NT manuscripts which don’t have it.
QUESTION: Since Jesus never in the NT addressed the Father as Jehovah, why should we?
4) Jesus and the Apostle Paul tell us to address God as ‘Father’:
a) Jesus taught us to pray to God as ‘Our Father’, not ‘Our Jehovah’: ‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father.....’ (Matthew 6:9).
b) Jesus addressed God as Father in His own prayers:
‘I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth’. (Matthew 11:25).
‘O my Father, if it be possible.......’ (Matthew 26:39,42).
‘He said, Abba, Father.......’ (Mark 14:36).
‘ I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven.......’ (Luke 10:21).
‘Saying, Father, if thou be willing.......’ (Luke 22:42).
‘Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them;.......’ (Luke 23:34).
‘Father, the hour is come......’ (John 17:1).
c) Paul said, ‘we cry, Abba, Father.’ (Romans 8:15).
d) The Holy Spirit through Paul said, ‘God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father’. (Galatians 4:6).
Here the Holy Spirit of God tells us to call God ‘Abba, Father’, not ‘Jehovah’
QUESTION: If Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Paul all address God as Father nine times (and never as Jehovah) then shouldn’t we call God ‘Father’?
5) No Ancient NT manuscripts contain the tetragram (YHWH) to translate as Jehovah.
The Church writers before 325 AD only mention Jehovah once in passing. JWs tell us that most Bible versions deceive people because they omit Jehovah as God’s Name, so
the JWs dishonestly add the word ‘Jehovah’ to the NT text, even though it is not in any NT Greek manuscript, ancient version, papyri or lectionary.
The WT’s claim that ‘Jehovah’ as God’s name was removed from the NT by superstitious scribes, is a total lie with no supporting historical or manuscript evidence.
6) Whose Name did the early Christians identify themselves with? Was it Jehovah or was it Jesus Christ? Always Jesus Christ, never Jehovah.
Who knows more, the Apostles or modern JWs? Consider these examples:
a) The Apostles never used the name ‘Jehovah’.
b) The Apostles and first century Christians were never called ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’. ‘The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.’ (Acts 11:26).
c) There is no proof that Jesus or his disciples ever pronounced the tetragram YHWH.
JWs claim that when Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1 ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....’ as quoted in Luke 4:18,19, that Jesus pronounced the word ‘YHWH’.
This is most unlikely. JWs assume that the religious leaders endorsing Christ’s ‘gracious words’ in verse 22 was because He uttered the name YHWH?
Historical records in the Mishnah, from Josephus, and from other sources show the Jews were loathe to allow the name YHWH to be used. The Jews would not have tolerated it being used by anybody but the High Priest.Jesus would have read ‘Adonai’
7) 119 Bible passages referring to Jehovah, are quoted and applied to Christ in the New Testament (Proof Available)
QUESTION: In view of 119 Bible verses applying ‘Jehovah’ to Christ in the NT, what does this tell you about who Christ is?
? The New Testament tells us to name the name of Jesus Christ, not the name of Jehovah. Consider these examples:
1. ‘Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.’(II Timothy 2:19)
2. ‘I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .’ (I Cor 1:10)
3. ‘Ye are washed,....sanctified,... justified in the name of the Lord Jesus ’ (I Cor 6:11)
4. ‘Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.’ (Col 3:17)
5. ‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you....’ (II Thess 1:12)
6. ‘Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves.....’ (II Thess. 3:6)
7. ‘all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.’ (I Corinthians 1:2)
8. ‘Thou holdest fast my name....’ Jesus said to the Pergamos church. (Revelation 2:13).
JWs have not held fast Christ’s name, nor have they called upon Christ’s name, nor do they name the name of Christ, nor is Jesus Christ precious to them, because they do not have saving belief in Him. ‘Unto you . . . which believe He is precious’.(I Peter 2:7).
QUESTION: Where does the NT tell us to name the name of Jehovah?
9) The New Testament always lifts up Jesus Christ’s name, not Jehovah’s name. Why?
Because Jesus Christ is Jehovah God on earth. Christ is 100% God and 100% man.
Q1: In whose name should we meet together?
‘Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.’ (Matthew 18:20)
Q2: Demons were cast out by the authority of whose name?
‘Paul.....said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ (Acts 16:18)
Q3: In whose name should we preach repentance and forgiveness of sins? ‘And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations. And ye are witnesses of these things.’ (Luke 24:47,48)
Q4: In whose name are we to believe and receive forgiveness of sins? ‘....through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.’ (Acts 10:43, John 1:12)
Q5: By whose name, and no other, do we obtain salvation? Acts 4:10,12 says: ‘by the name of Jesus Christ ... Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.’
Q6: In whose name should we pray? John 16:23,24; 14:13,14; 15:16 says: ‘Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.’
Q7: In whose name is the Holy Spirit sent?
‘But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name......’ (John 14:26)
Q8: In whose name and authority did the disciples heal the sick?
‘His name through faith in his name hath made this man strong’ (Acts 3:16; 4:30)
Q9: Whose name did Paul say that we are to call upon?
‘ all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.’ (I Cor 1:2)
Q10: Whose name is above every name?
‘God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name .... that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.’(Phil 2:9-11)
Paul’s quote about Christ is from Isaiah 45:22-24 where every knee will bow to Jehovah. What is true about Jehovah, is also true of Christ, the Lord of all mankind
Q11: According to Acts 1:8, of whom are we to be witnesses?
‘Ye shall be witnesses unto me (Jesus)’
Q12: In whose name were believers baptized?
‘they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus’. (Acts 8:16; 2:38)
Q13: In whose name were believers designated?
‘the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch’. (Acts 11:26)
Q14: In whose name did the apostles speak?
‘Commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus’ Acts 4:17,18
Q15: In whose name did early Christians suffer? Acts 15:26 says:
‘Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ ‘rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name’Acts 5:41;9:16
Q16: Whose name was Paul to carry?
‘Lord said: He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.’ (Acts 9:15)
Q17: In whose name did Paul deliver a man to Satan?
‘In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...to deliver such an one to Satan.’ I Cor 5:4,5
Q18: In whose name did the apostles teach? Acts 5:28; 8:12 says:
‘Did we not straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name?’
10) Why does WT break their own rule (where the OT speaks of Jehovah), that they do not insert Jehovah in the NT, when the quote clearly refers to Christ?
Peter quotes from Joel 2:32 (spoken of Jehovah) and applies it to Jesus in Acts 2:21 and 38.
Calling on the name of Jehovah for salvation equals repenting and being baptised in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of sins.
Conclusion: Jesus shares the nature of His Father and His Name. The absence of YHWH in any NT manuscript demolishes the WT case of introducing the word ‘Jehovah’ into the NT.
Question: If God was so concerned about preserving His covenant name, why did the apostles not preserve it in their writings?
Question: To imply that the name ‘Jehovah’ is the main name of God that we are to use, contradicts the continued NT use of the name ‘Jesus’ on 900 occasions, while the tetragram YHWH is used nowhere in the NT.
QUESTION: Why does the WT not translate ‘Jehovah’ into Hebrews 1:10, I Peter 3:15 andPhilippians 2:11, when the OT passages from which these are quoted refer to YHWH?
We are to make the name of the Father known as Jesus emphasized (Matthew 6:9; John 17:26). How do we do it? By recognizing that Jesus Christ was chosen by the Father to embody all the glory and important reputation of that Name.
By Guest Nicole
Religion has always been a feature of schooling in England. The Education Act of 1944 made the study of Religion the only compulsory subject in school and it was to be accompanied by a “daily act of worshipÂ” for all pupils. Back then religion was largely synonymous with Christianity.
But a recent survey from the National Association of Teachers of Religious Education shows there appears to be aÂ
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Â with parents taking their children out of school RE lessons. The findings show that parents are withdrawing children from lessons on Islam, or visits to the Mosque, calling into question their preparation for life in modern Britain. RecentlyÂ
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Â suggests that Â“withdrawalÂ” has been requested in almost three quarters of schools. More than 10% of those withdrawing are open about the fact that they are doing so for racist or Islamophobic reasons. In 2017, the RE Council set up an independent commission to review RE. ThisÂ
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Â has heard much anecdotal evidence of Islamophobically-inspired withdrawal. Teachers up and down the country have stories of parents not wishing their children to learn about Â“that terrorist religionÂ”. This conflicts with the duty of schools to promote Â“ Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Â” of tolerance and respect and to challenge extremism. Recently, the teaching union, the Association of Teachers and Lecturer, passed a motion condemning Â“racistÂ” parents who pull their children out of RE lessons. The union has urged the government to putÂ
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . The law on withdrawal
Parents are able to pull their children out of RE lessons by drawing on theÂ
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , which states that a parent can request that for their child to be wholly or partly excused from religious education and religious worship in the school. A voluntary Â“conscience clauseÂ” existed in some church schools since the 1820s and became part of the 1870 and 1944 education acts. Put simply, if the only school in the village was a Roman Catholic school, and Anglican and nonconformist parents did not want their children indoctrinated into Catholicism (and vice-versa) they could be excused from the religious instruction offered there. They could then provide their own denominationally suitable religious instruction either at school or elsewhere.
Some parents didnÂ’t want their children to visit a mosque.Â Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. For decades this clause appeared to cause few problems. IndeedÂ Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Â suggests that there was little to be worried about. In a handful of schools, occasional families with a particular background Â– often JehovahÂ’s Witnesses Â– would not take part in assemblies or RE lessons and would instead, work quietly on their own materials. But it seems now, times are changing.
Read more:Â Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
By Queen Esther
THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW JEHOVAH, AND THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING !
1000Â ManuscriptsÂ found!...
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It is to be noted that both Rolf Furuli and Gerard Gertroux are both Jehovah's Witnesses.
By Jack Ryan
September 6th, 2017: A just released research survey shows once again that Jehovah's Witnesses are among the least educated people in the United States:
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It is also interesting to note how JWs rank in the categories of: Income, Insurance Coverage and Homeownership. They are among the lowest in every one of these categories.
45% of JWs report household earnings of less than $30,000 per year Fewer than half of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses (48%) are homeowners Only 31% report having health insurance through their employer Â
via Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. World News
By James Thomas Rook Jr.
My wife and I are planning to see the movie "DUNKIRK" this weekend, and I have seen "Saving Private Ryan", and "Schindler's List", all very violent war movies, and in my opinion very IMPORTANT movies to see.
The list of incredibly important movies could fill a notebook.
I could probably list 10 off the top of my head .. some important for very different reasons.
"The Notebook" comes to mind.
Some, merely cultural icons, like the entire STAR WARS and STAR TREK franchises, etc.
What has been your actual experience about what kinds of movies the Brotherhood actually sees ?
Why did Jack cry? Maybe it was because he realized the old will get young again....JWs do have the Truth...and soon everyone will see that.....
By Micah Ong
YAHWEH is NOT a HEBREW NAME. It is ARAMAIC, which is closely related to HEBREW.
Aramaic replaced ancient Paleo Hebrew and nearly all the existing manuscripts, including the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, are in the Babylonian Aramaic alphabet.
These four letters YHWH are Babylonian Aramaic. They are NOT SACRED and they are NOT HOLY. They come from the very root of Babel, confusion, and babble and are profane! According to the Jews who teach about these four letter, the god of this name is a bisexual. He is said to be androgynous (being both male and female). He is said to be androgynous (being both male and female). This god is a devil god. He is NOT the TRUE God of the ISRAELITES.
Two Catholic monks invented the guess names of JEHOVAH (1270AD) and YAHWEH (about 1725AD). They should not be in any Bible since they did not exist at the time the Bible was written.
The antichrist Concision (Law keepers, Noahides) who worships the Tetragrammatons’ YHWH, hail the Aramaic alphabet letters of Mystery Babylon to be sacred and holy and the guess names Jehovah and Yahweh derived from them to be the sacred name(s) of God.
By Micah Ong
The guess name Jehovah is the same as the word “hovah”(Strongs 1943) in the first box to the left and means ruin or disaster. The guess name Yahvah is the same as the word “ahvah” (Strong’s 5753) in the second box on the left and means to do perversely. The guess names “Yahveh or Yahweh” are the same as the word “ahveh” (Strong’s 5773) in the third box on the left and means distorting, perverting! By adding a “J” or a “Y” to these these words and forming FALSE sacred names, the occult and mystic fabricators invented “Jehovah” and “Yahweh!”
By JW Insider
How good is the evidence that the Christian Scriptures contained YHWH or some variation of that Divine Name?
There are probably some non-JWs who believe that there is absolutely no reason at all to even entertain the possibility, and there are probably some JWs who believe manuscripts have already been found with YHWH in the NT. For most of us, the real answer lies somewhere in between. There is a lot of good research on the issue, and this research might be interesting to some of us, whether or not it is compelling enough for anyone to change their mind.
A previous discussion on the topic became very long and veered off into other topics, too. Hopefully, this attempt will not result in multiple topics or judgmental attitudes about people, and we can focus on the validity of the research itself.
If anyone wishes to participate, they should feel free to copy anything they wrote in a previous thread. A topic about YHWH in the NT will likely also include topics about the pronunciation of YHWH, YHWH in the OT (LXX, Masoretic, DSS, and other manuscripts), the earliest NT and OT meanings of "name," historical linguistic trends, Greek abbreviations, NT translations, usage by early "Ante-Nicene Fathers," and the various alternatives to YHWH, and comments made by anyone else that might seem partly relevant or interesting (Philo, Josephus, Ebionites, Talmud, Gnostics, etc.). It's still a big topic.
The arguments that many find relevant are found in Gerard Gertoux, which can be seen here:
Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He references G. Howard, of course, which might even be a better place to start. (HOWARD, Biblical Archaeology Review Vol IV, No. 1). His ideas can be found online here:
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By Guest Nicole
By Outta Here
Is Jehovah's refence to Himself as a King anthropomorphic?
"Because we cannot see God with physical eyes, he uses certain anthropomorphic expressions to help us to understand and appreciate things about himself." Insight 1 p349
"anthropomorphic usage, that is, the attributing of physical and human characteristics to God to facilitate understanding" Insight 2 p1007
By Guest Nicole
Zachary Linderer said he wanted to go to college to major in the field of science, but growing up as a Jehovah's Witness, higher education was prohibited by his parents.
Courtesy Luke Vander Ploeg
Growing up on Long Island, Zachary Linderer was obsessed with science.
He grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and like many others in the faith, he was homeschooled his whole life. By the time he got to high school, Linderer knew that he wanted to go to college for something in the sciences: physics, oceanography, something in that realm. But he realized at a young age that wasn't going to be a possibility.
"I knew that it wasn't going to be encouraged that I get an education," Linderer says. "My dad told me that he knew people who were into science, and it dragged them right out of the organization, right out of the truth."
The organization that Linderer is talking about is the Watchtower: the governing organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. The view that higher education is spiritually dangerous is very common among Witnesses, and for Linderer, it meant that his parents wouldn't support him going to college.
Still, he knew that he wanted to study, so he decided to keep his ambitions a secret and figure out a way to attend on his own. Close to high school graduation he let his plans slip to a couple of his Jehovah's Witness friends. Word got back to his family.
"When they found out, my dad and uncles made fun of me," Linderer recalls. "It really squashed my hopes. I knew I wasn't going to get their support, and without their support, it was really obvious to me at the time that I wasn't going to be able to do it on my own."
With only a few credits left before high school graduation, Linderer dropped out. He had no prospects of education beyond high school, so getting the diploma seemed pointless. He struggled to find work after moving out of his parents' home, which eventually led him to get certified as an electrician. Still, that longing to study science haunted him.
"I think I had that feeling at 17 years old or so that that was what I wanted to be, what I needed to be," Linderer says. "There's been this hole ever since then."
From the top down
Linderer's story is a common one for children raised as Jehovah's Witnesses. Pew Research shows that only 9 percent of Witnesses get undergraduate degrees. That's well below the national average of 30.4 percent and the lowest of any faith group. The likely reason for this trend is the religion's official warnings against college.
Witness leadership declined to speak to NPR for this story, but Anthony Morris III, a member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, outlines the organization's policies clearly in a video on the organization's website. The Watchtower Organization discourages higher education for two basic reasons.
First, higher education is spiritually dangerous. In the video, Morris warns parents that "the most intelligent and eloquent professors will be trying to reshape the thinking of your child, and their influence can be tremendous." He goes on to say that continual association with non-believers in an academic setting can "erode thinking and convictions."
Witness leadership also discourages higher education because they believe it's a waste of time. Jehovah's Witnesses have been predicting the end of the world since the religion's founding at the end of the 19th century. By their rationale, time in college would be better spent out on the streets, converting persons to become Witnesses.
Morris makes it very clear that the Watchtower organization doesn't discourage education, but rather secular education.
"If parents and young ones are motivated to pursue divine education," Morris says, "the quest for higher secular education becomes less and less of an issue."
Amber McGee (Back) says although she didn't fulfill her dreams to go collage because she grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, she'll pass those dreams on to her children.
Courtesy Luke Vander Ploeg
More material problems
The lack of higher education can translate into more tangible problems for Witnesses. Pew research also shows that Jehovah's Witnesses are among the lowest earners of any religious group.
Amber McGee falls in that category. She grew up a Witness in rural Texas. Like Linderer, she was home-schooled from a young age. Her parents wanted to protect her and her siblings from worldly influences. That decision wasn't easy on her family.
"My mom, who was supposed to be our home school teacher, was not capable of doing it, emotionally mentally," McGee recalls. "She had three young children. She was by herself, very far from family, and even grocery stores and that sort of thing."
McGee's mother never finished high school herself, and the pressure of trying to teach three children was too much for her. She gave up on homeschooling them when McGee and her twin were in third grade. The kids were forced to fend for themselves using workbooks. When she had trouble with a subject, McGee says she'd just pass her work off to her twin, and vice-versa. This left both of them with significant learning disabilities.
McGee says that when she got excited about a subject, her mother would often shut her down. "I told her how much I found history fun," McGee says. "She told me, 'Well, that's not important because it doesn't have any bearing on your future, and it won't be any use in the paradise." This "paradise" refers to the heaven on earth that Witnesses believe is coming after the end of the world.
McGee barely graduated high school. In mathematics, she never made it past the seventh grade level. That's made life difficult for McGee. She's now 34 years old, and the most she's made in a year is about $14,000.
McGee and her family left the Witnesses about a year ago. They're doing better now financially, but it's still far from what McGee had hoped for her life. She had wanted to be nurse growing up, but with no support from her parents and very little education, she didn't feel it was possible. Today, she struggles with that same feeling that Linderer talked about: the feeling of being robbed of something. It's a sentiment shared by most of the more than 100 ex-Jehovah's Witnesses that I heard from while reporting this story.
Still, McGee says she isn't letting that feeling stop her from retaking her life.
"I was taught very, very young to stop dreaming, to not have dreams," McGee says, "that you'll never be a famous person or a doctor or a nurse. It's not possible. So now, as an adult, at 34 years old, I'm learning to start dreaming again."
Even if it's too late for some of her dreams, she definitely hopes to pass them on to her children.
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