A Message to @AnnaNana

[Moise Racette]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

During an unusual sane moment, CT Russell, a foundation stone of the organization, stated- 

 

Beware of "organization.” It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day. (The Watchtower, September 15, 1895

Not that it matters since the Bro believed in individual congregations. That doesn't exclude him: he was part of a cluster of hundreds of congregations under the publishing house Watchtower. 

This implies he felt Elders should be voted in as Elders. Contrary to the misrepresentation this poster suggests. 

Yet, this poster "refuses" to accept or "denies" the first century congregations led by leaders that were instructed by the apostles to continue Christ's fine works. 

Sad way of showing this poster can be considered a Christian much less an anointed.

[Space Merchant]

17 hours ago, Witness said:

I'm pretty sure she's targeting the anointed priests in the organization, those who come out,  including herself, by saying they are not to serve as priests under their High Priest and Head, Jesus Christ.  Anyone who does, she is labeling as a charleton. 

It seemed like you were saying otherwise when everyone knows the latter to be true. A Charlatan is someone who falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill but lacks it and do not change said knowledge and never admit to mistake and thing they're spotless; a fraud, i.e. saying they're Jesus reincarnate, saying they have the ability to speak in tongues, have visions, etc. Charlatans also have an end-game, an agenda, which differs totally from what God's Word professes, as well as make false claims, and they tend to dwell in narcissism. I see the term Priest, but the general priesthood (and or chosen) is a teaching in Christendom. These people are authorized by Christ  entrusted in the church who are of a clergy, the other option is simply baptism makes someone an ordained ministers, or simply put, a baptized Christian. Translation often times shift the terms around by some.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

This is because she prefers organization built by men, and not by God.   The interesting thing is, the now 10 GB members are active  "priests" and have hired on their massive elder body, not anointed, to follow in their footsteps. 

Going with the term regarding priests, if they're baptized then they're ordain Christians in their faith, it is said that in regards to them, all baptized members are considered ordained ministers. All members take on the missionary work, the Commission. Not all ordained Christians are chosen. Regarding anyone who truly seeks or even attempts to follow the True God and his Christ, all are of the stones of the house. Those who are priestly and or of priesthood is also associated with the term Presbyterate.

It is not uncommon for regular Christians and the chosen to work together, I myself working with the late Solider of God, although the roles are different, we both follow and do this for Christ when it comes to dealing with Babylon, aiding the children, being aware of and warning people about the beast, etc.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

They are sanctioned by men to serve in a priestly capacity  for the organization.

Not sure with where you are going with this one because in the 1st century, we seen people like the Apostles, such as Paul choose people, teach and or had given them a role of some kind in the church.

Example, after Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus (Matthew 26:14-16), and later committed suicide after realizing what he had done (Matthew 27:5), we see that a man named Matthias was chosen among them, Jesus was not present obviously (Acts 1:26), so these people knew what was entrusted to them to even do these things, Apostle Paul being an example. Timothy was essentially a student and disciple to that of Apostle Paul, so he trusted him with the Churches/places of worship he was associated with, likewise with Titus, a Greek convert.

Then there's Apostle John's students, Ignatius and Polycarp, who were of the Church, although not mention in the Bible, granted the Scriptures had since completed, but their actions and accounts are noteworthy. We see it was men, doing these things, and these men all knew of and did their best to follow the Christ in a world that is cruel, especially with what happened to Matthias and Polycarp.

Further details from the Greek text even suggests that around those days, especially Paul's there was the hierarchical pattern of the Early Christian Church was mainly governed by Apostles and the Elders, etc. with designated functions/roles in an organized fashion, in this case, organization of Christians in purpose and efforts, as the Bible puts it, orderly.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

It looks to me that the GB have usurped the position of Jesus Christ, as Head over the anointed, and serving as high priests.  

So an opinion of yours? So far, I simply see them as imperfect like the rest of us granted they do make up for mistakes, but I haven't seen them or heard from anyone that they are usurpers, it is also a contradiction because of the strict adherence to the Commission, if what you say is true, there would not be a need for Jehovah's Witnesses to preach to anyone at all, and it would mean that these men actually have an agenda instead of what was tasked to all Christians who knows of the Messianic age.

Plus, they're care for their own would be non existent, for instance, EXJWs have said that after the Russian situation, these men care about the money and not their people, but from the looks of it, even from my contacts inside Russia, it is quite the opposite. Then there is Ukraine, they've taken more of their people out compared to the opposition. It also does not make sense that they're collecting Bibles if that were the case. So there has to be proof of a usurping because that is a bold opinion.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

But the anointed priests in the organization, are silenced; obeying men, and not their High Priest, Jesus.

Can you give an example of how chosen silence their own if they all communicate with each other? Plus that statement is a parallel between you and @Kosonen, who he himself knew he is chosen.

 

That being said, to go back to the other point, Christians are indeed organized and or within an organization of a sort, and there is roles for each members within said Church, be it if they are chosen or not, men or women.

[Space Merchant]

16 hours ago, Moise Racette said:

Diligent research is a must. However, when new forms of understanding ancient script are found, then, that translation gives the reader a better understanding of ancient writers. This is why the Watchtower relies on God's guidance, not man's.

Research is always key, but I do find crazy is back then most Christians in the 19th century did not have all knowledge, but present day they do, and often times, any opposition will use the past against them without realizing that Restorationist operate in a way that after learning they change over time.

Sure there were expectations, but learning allows people back then to understand that they have to face reality, in terms of what God's word is truly conveying, despite that fact some Christians ended up accepting Creeds. Same case with pervious centuries, especially the fight for bible translation.

[Moise Racette]

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Research is always key, but I do find crazy is back then most Christians in the 19th century did not have all knowledge, but present day they do, and often times, any opposition will use the past against them without realizing that Restorationist operate in a way that after learning they change over time.

True. There was no real spiritual backing until Martin Luther and those in that century that started questioning the authority of the Catholic Church.

It seems, @Witness equates the Watchtower to the Catholic Church. However, that poster fails in many ways, since one of the main things about the Catholic Church is, they had a literal war, and they literally have a military, when the Watchtower never did or does.

Fast-forward, then people can see God's enlightenment progress after the 19th century, when people actually started reading the bible for themselves, and found many erred views within Christendom. 

This is why the Watchtower sets itself apart from Christendom to "revise" all that was lost from the first century teaching. Therefore, when a new way of translation is found in order to better understand the context, then it will be applied.

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Sure there were expectations, but learning allows people back then to understand that they have to face reality, in terms of what God's word is truly conveying, despite that fact some Christians ended up accepting Creeds. Same case with pervious centuries, especially the fight for bible translation.

If every Christian was on the same page, it would glorify God and God would be extremely happy. Unfortunately, Satan influence prevents the majority of Christendom from facing facts. They just as want as @Witnessstipulates the authority they have compiled.

Ironically, Pastor Russell thought along those same lines when it came to questioning the CATHOLIC CHURCH's authority.

"Nothing in the Bible sanctions the view held by our Catholic brethren, to the effect that Apostolic authority and power have been handed down through the Bishops of the Catholic Church or any other."

"The picture is that of the New Jerusalem, whose dominion is to bring Divine blessing and uplifting to all the families of the earth. The New Jerusalem is declared to be a symbolical picture of the elect, saintly Church after her marriag with the Lord at His second coming. That symbolical City is represented as having twelve glorious foundation stones --and no more--and in those twelve foundation stones were the names of

Here, I agree with the poster, when it comes to how people interpret and translate scripture without a true effort to understand the word of God with wisdom. We can also apply that ideology to those that misinterpret other people's thoughts and publications.

I also recall when the Catholic POPE thought he was equal to Christ and was infallible, which I found hilarious. The good thing is the Watchtower GB don't think that way, nor do they believe, they can replace the apostles. They as fellow workers of Christ rely on God's Holy Spirit for guidance.

[Guest]

I just got banned from "e-watchman", lol. I can add it to my list of places I am banned from (the Kingdom Hall, Zoom meetings).

I don't know much about the man who calls himself "the Watchman" but I was visiting the site to check things out and share some information. I watched Robert King publicly humiliate and then "delete" another poster who was expressing an opinion that didn't agree with Robert. Then Robert and his cronies made fun of the man. When I called Robert out on how he was acting just like the fake elders he talks bad about (by "disfellowshipping" anyone he views as competition or who doesn't bow down to his will), he proceeded to delete me.

Here is a link to the conversation:

https://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?threads/jesus-name-proof-of-the-gbs-deceptive-teaching-of-the-faithful-slave.2257/page-21

I saw that Robert King doesn't want people to follow Jehovah. He wants people to follow him. It is proper for us to warn the flock from false shepherds. That guy is definitely a false shepherd. Hopefully he repents. Probably he will when Jesus gets here and shines a light on everything.

The visit made me appreciate the members of this forum.

Thank you to all the members of the forum who show respect for the reasonable differences in opinion of others by being willing to disagree without "disfellowshipping". Thank you for imitating Jehovah's respect for free will. May Jehovah bless you for your reasonableness and for following Jesus' example in this regard.

Jesus did not come in any man's name. Jesus came in Jehovah's name. Jehovah is going to refine his organization, and all these "prophets" (whether inside or outside the organization) - who beat the sheep and try to draw the disciples away after themselves to be worshipped and claim otherwise - will be disciplined by Christ when he gets here. Jehovah will gather all the little sheep from where they are scattered, to his true organization, Jehovah's Witnesses, return them to the fold, and put faithful shepherds in place over the flock. 

Jehovah will be praised.

[Moise Racette]

33 minutes ago, AnnaNana said:

Then Robert and his cronies made fun of the man. When I called Robert out on how he was acting just like the fake elders he talks bad about (by "disfellowshipping" anyone he views as competition or who doesn't bow down to his will), he proceeded to delete me.

To bad, things are different here. They accept apostates pretending to be witnesses in such an obtuse way, that it's easy to spot. Especially liars and blasphemers of God's Holy Spirit. The good thing is, there's no coming back from the second death this poster has sealed. 🤨

[Moise Racette]

47 minutes ago, AnnaNana said:

Thank you to all the members of the forum who show respect for the reasonable differences in opinion of others by being willing to disagree

Each person's opinions are just that until they misrepresent scripture. Then it's no longer an opinion but an abomination. Therefore, those that don't hold such a person on account for bad behavior and bible misrepresentation, have nothing to do with accepting Christ's words.

However, if this poster was so bad as to upset another apostate in his forum, that says more about this poster than that other apostate. Then this poster would do Pearl Doxsey no good and her group or Org as it can be stipulated by man's and or bible standard of a gathering.

The building doesn't matter, but the gathering of the minds. So, anyone that chats on the internet or other means of electrical devices in public or private is considered a gathering regardless of how people view it. The same goes for public or private meetings or gatherings. 

This also goes for apostates, false prophets, and fake anointed.

Matthew 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Noun gathering - /gˈæðəɹɪŋ/ 1 The act of gathering something

2 The social act of coming together

Hypernym aggregation assembling collecting collection group action sewing social group stitchery

Hyponym assembly audience auditory bevy building bunch calling together camp carload cast cast of characters centralisation centralization class coming together commune community concentration concourse congregating congregation contingent convening convention convocation cortege course covey crew crowd dramatis personae eightsome entourage fair fivesome floor form foursome gang grade group meeting harvest harvest home harvesting klatch klatsch mass meeting meeting mobilisation mobilization multitude municipality muster octet octette pair quartet quartette quintet quintette quorum rally rap group rave-up retinue room septet septette sevensome sextet sextette sixsome social affair social gathering suite table threesome throng triad trinity trio turnout wine tasting year

Derived gather gatherings

 

[Guest]

😆

 

(Goodnight, @Moise.)

[Guest]

(from "The Message" translation:)

 

Religious Fashion Shows

 

Now Jesus turned to address his disciples, along with the crowd that had gathered with them. “The religion scholars and Pharisees are competent teachers in God’s Law. You won’t go wrong in following their teachings on Moses. But be careful about following them. They talk a good line, but they don’t live it. They don’t take it into their hearts and live it out in their behavior. It’s all spit-and-polish veneer.

 

“Instead of giving you God’s Law as food and drink by which you can banquet on God, they package it in bundles of rules, loading you down like pack animals. They seem to take pleasure in watching you stagger under these loads, and wouldn’t think of lifting a finger to help. Their lives are perpetual fashion shows, embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next. They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called ‘Doctor’ and ‘Reverend.’

 

“Don’t let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. Don’t set people up as experts over your life, letting them tell you what to do. Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do. No one else should carry the title of ‘Father’; you have only one Father, and he’s in heaven. And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them. There is only one Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.

 

“Do you want to stand out? Then step down. Be a servant. If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you. But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

 

Frauds! 

 

“I’ve had it with you! You’re hopeless, you religion scholars, you Pharisees! Frauds! Your lives are roadblocks to God’s kingdom. You refuse to enter, and won’t let anyone else in either.

 

“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You go halfway around the world to make a convert, but once you get him you make him into a replica of yourselves, double-damned.

 

“You’re hopeless! What arrogant stupidity! You say, ‘If someone makes a promise with his fingers crossed, that’s nothing; but if he swears with his hand on the Bible, that’s serious.’ What ignorance! Does the leather on the Bible carry more weight than the skin on your hands? And what about this piece of trivia: ‘If you shake hands on a promise, that’s nothing; but if you raise your hand that God is your witness, that’s serious’? What ridiculous hairsplitting! What difference does it make whether you shake hands or raise hands? A promise is a promise. What difference does it make if you make your promise inside or outside a house of worship? A promise is a promise. God is present, watching and holding you to account regardless.

 

“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God’s Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment—the absolute basics!—you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required. Do you have any idea how silly you look, writing a life story that’s wrong from start to finish, nitpicking over commas and semicolons?

 

“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You buff the surface of your cups and bowls so they sparkle in the sun, while the insides are maggoty with your greed and gluttony. Stupid Pharisee! Scour the insides, and then the gleaming surface will mean something.

 

“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You’re like manicured grave plots, grass clipped and the flowers bright, but six feet down it’s all rotting bones and worm-eaten flesh. People look at you and think you’re saints, but beneath the skin you’re total frauds.

 

“You’re hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You build granite tombs for your prophets and marble monuments for your saints. And you say that if you had lived in the days of your ancestors, no blood would have been on your hands. You protest too much! You’re cut from the same cloth as those murderers, and daily add to the death count.

 

“Snakes! Cold-blooded sneaks! Do you think you can worm your way out of this? Never have to pay the piper? It’s on account of people like you that I send prophets and wise guides and scholars generation after generation—and generation after generation you treat them like dirt, greeting them with lynch mobs, hounding them with abuse.

 

“You can’t squirm out of this: Every drop of righteous blood ever spilled on this earth, beginning with the blood of that good man Abel right down to the blood of Zechariah, Barachiah’s son, whom you murdered at his prayers, is on your head. All this, I’m telling you, is coming down on you, on your generation.

 

“Jerusalem! Jerusalem! Murderer of prophets! Killer of the ones who brought you God’s news! How often I’ve ached to embrace your children, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you wouldn’t let me. And now you’re so desolate, nothing but a ghost town. What is there left to say? Only this: I’m out of here soon. The next time you see me you’ll say, ‘Oh, God has blessed him! He’s come, bringing God’s rule!’”

 

😁

"Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!"

[Moise Racette]

2 hours ago, AnnaNana said:

“Don’t let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. Don’t set people up as experts over your life,

This is hilarious, since that's exactly what the poster is going by posting nonsense here. 😂

2 hours ago, AnnaNana said:

“Snakes! Cold-blooded sneaks! Do you think you can worm your way out of this?

True! All apostates are, and they never will, since God can read their minds and hearts.

 

[Space Merchant]

@AudreyKT Robert King is a misguided Christian, who in the past sought after converts. I had debated several of his followers in the past, early on in my debating days, some of his followers are interconnected with Francis Chen, another problematic preacher who supported what Babylon had done in 2016, essentially, eating from the festival table of Babylon, with those who are seeking the conquest of peace concerning all religions.

@Moise Racette Yes, when the pastor spoke of organizations, if anyone read the article itself, 1895 Zion's Watch Tower, the very one @Witness cited, he was talking about the organizations of the world, collective wise. In the article he states to avoid such organizations, rather, to meet as a family of God, to recognize each member as brethren who who profess forgiveness of sins through faith in the precious blood and who show by their daily life that they are striving against sin and choose honored servants from among them. When they choose, the articles says to seek not one's own will or glory, neither that of other brethren, but the will and glory of God only, remembering the foregoing considerations as one find them to be scriptural. Several paragraphs to the citation @Witness coined, one can see a few wholly organizations the article mentioned by name, one of them being the The Boys' Brigade is an international interdenominational Christian youth organization. The article mentions the governor of California made reference to the Boy's Brigade, that neither it nor any other organization could be allowed to drill and carry weapons, unless first they had sworn allegiance to the State. Prior to that the article mentions The A.P.A. organization (I'm guessing it is the American Psychological Association), in it, it says the following:

We are poor in this world's goods, but we can give a little; and that mite I think should be used in the Master's service. One of the sisters, a dear, good woman, was speaking, a short time since, about an organization, known as the A.P.A., and declared her belief in its principles and her intention of contributing to its support. I tried to show her that, even if nothing could be said against the order from an earthly standpoint, she was running for the prize of the high calling; that her health, time, money and all the other blessings she enjoys come from and belong to the Lord, and should be used in his service; that we are dead to this world, its pursuits, enjoyments, hopes, organizations; and that if we give money or influence to support worldly things, we are not living up to our consecration.

Of course there is more to it, but I clipped it down by searching the quotations, but in this regard when the article itself was talking about wholly organizations, evidently, it speaks of the ones of the world, whereas concerning Christians who follow the True God and his Christ, it puts emphasis on an organized brotherhood of brothers, and sisters, who are on the same paged in an organized fashion. One comes to that understanding via reading the article itself, rather than sacrifice the whole thing for a small quote or a single word, as is ignoring the context; this can pose as a problem because people can fool others easily.

How anyone missed this, such as not reading the article, in speculation, it was done on purpose, willfully. It should be noted any affiliates of JWFacts and or other, never mentions this, thus suffering from what the MSM has been doing for years to purpose use small quotations without knowing the context of whatever article or story, even event, that is taking place and or had past already.

In short, there are organizations, of people and groups, in regards to God and his Christ, there is an organization of able bodied Christians who are committed to the will and purpose of God our Father, and heed not only his command, but that of his son, Christ Jesus.

[Moise Racette]

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 Yes, when the pastor spoke of organizations, if anyone read the article itself, 1895 Zion's Watch Tower, the very one

Unfortunately, some of his writing continues to be taken out of context. However, the pastor was in favor of individual congregations having their own elected Elders. This is no way disproves, he wasn't part of a collective organization of Bible students under his direction and his publishing house.

Yet, the FACT is that @Witness has to dig up a view not related to the modern day Watchtower speaks volumes of desperation from a false prophet, and anyone willing to acknowledge that understanding, since the first century churches of Christ were organized under God and Christ's word.

The article I posted also involved how the Catholic Church Bishops equate themselves as the apostles, which Pastor Russell disproved of. Therefore, there were many articles written by the pastor to relate to different types of organizations.

"The first thought of some in this connection would perhaps be: "Ah! there we have the object of [A46] their organization: with them, as with other nations, the priests ruled the people, imposing upon their credulity and exciting their fears for their own honor and profit." But hold, friend; let us not too hastily assume anything. Where there is such good opportunity for testing this matter by the facts, it would not be reasonable to jump to conclusions without the facts. The unanswerable evidences are contrary to such suppositions. The rights and the privileges of the priests were limited; they were given no civil power whatever, and wholly lacked opportunity for using their office to impose upon the rights or consciences of the people; and this arrangement was made by Moses, a member of the priestly line."

So, @Witness out of context post is meaningless.

If anyone is going to cite the Bible Student era publications, I would suggest they first understand the ideology of that era to get a meaningful context and not just read the words of an article. There are many ways from Sunday to understand them properly.

This problem also exists with many "witnesses" here that lack the proper knowledge of understanding.

"This fact, stated thus, is an unfair presentation too common to skeptics, who, possibly ignorantly, thereby misrepresent one of the most remarkable evidences of God's part in the organization of that system, and that it was not the work of a selfish and scheming priesthood. Indeed, it is not infrequently misrepresented by a modern priesthood, which urges a similar system now, using that as a precedent, without mentioning the condition of things upon which it was founded, or its method of payment."

Does this mean Pastor Russell is denying an organized structure? or the authority vested within that organization as to civil rule, like the Pharissees?