The Man of Lawlessness in the 21st Century

[Anna]

11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

have you now come to embrace the Trinity and hellfire for the miscreants?

Well this is sooo funny too. Someone on my FB Ex-JW page has today asked me the same questions ? 

Is this normal JW training then ? To try to insult people by asking such stupid questions.

How about TRUTH ? Oh of course the JW Org knows nothing about that does it ? 

Just piping in here. You might think it's an insulting question, but who taught you the TRUTH about the Trinity and hellfire? I sure know it wasn't any of Christendom's religions....

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Verse 4 fits an atheistic Man better than it does a clerical Man.

 

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

he sits down in the temple of God

TTH, in what Temple of God, and where is this Temple of God, where your Atheistic Man siting? 

I would assume how Paul was talking about Christ Church as Temple?! Or you have another perspective?

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

But basically, these men of lawlessness have ALWAYS been atheists.

If we take this thought as new way of thinking, then we can say that one Class of man existing in WT Society (because JW people believe how this Organization is God's Temple on Earth) that acting as god , showing himself to be a god, and governing over God's people.

So, this fits well in your idea of Atheistic Man who negate any divinity to any other gods, but consider themselves as god. In final result they are atheistic, as you suggest, because atheism in their own eyes/mind, annuls the existence of any other god - in fact reverses the existence of any other god on them alone to be god.

But term Atheistic, in lexical meaning, refers to person who not believe in existence of god as supreme being. By this general, and acceptable meaning of word "atheist", this idea of yours Atheistic man who sits in Temple, will be of short living. Maybe, you will find another name or substitution name for Man of Lawlessness. :)) 

[Witness]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Would you please give it a rest, lady?

The purpose of my thread was not so that you would adapt it, as you adapt so many threads here, to once again advance your pet peeve that you are the good anointed, they are the bad ones, and beat it into the ground.

The purpose was to see if the Man of Lawlessness can be associated with the new and very anti-Witness (and others) wave of atheism, in view of the verses that I highlighted: 2 Thess 2: 4, 9-10, as well as Paul’s observation of the next chapter that “faith is not a possession of all people.”

You were proposing a theory without knowing the facts; the primary one being the definition of God's Temple.  Tell you what, the next time I feel obligated to comment on a post you may start or address one of your comments, I won't address you directly, but will say something like "TTH said,....."  Oh, and I'll try to remember to add, "I believe it is this way."  I may forget; I am reaching 63 years.  

"good anointed"   If you were at the door in your preaching work, and you engaged in a conversation about the trinity, would you feel you were a "good JW" by presenting them with truth from the Bible?    Perhaps you would, but you knew there were pertinent scriptures to present, and felt the need to show the person where he erred.    I have no feeling of being "good", but anxious about doing God's will properly, by speaking truth.  When Christ judges each one of us, then we will know who is "good".   

"In the same way, when you have done all that you were commanded, you should say, ‘We are worthless servants; we’ve only done our duty.’”  Luke 17:10

You might want to check on the GB though.  They are re-emphasizing they will soon be going to "heaven", leaving all of you behind with the elders.  Notice, only they will be going.  They must be good anointed ones  The rest of the anointed...well, the GB could care less.  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I remember seeing on the news years ago some minority protest group complaining "Washington never pays any attention to US!"

My immediate thought was "I wish Washington would not pay any attention to ME!"

If the GB all go to heaven, perhaps God will have them counting clouds, or something.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

They are re-emphasizing they will soon be going to "heaven", leaving all of you behind with the elders. 

I guess that Legal Department with whole Team/s of Lawyers will stay on Earth to support elders :))))

[TrueTomHarley]

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

TTH, in what Temple of God, and where is this Temple of God, where your Atheistic Man siting? 

No need to get too technical here. It is enough for the phrase to stand for one’s guiding focus on life, as the Temple was for Jews.

The aggravation I face is that I only have to breathe an expression like “Temple of God” and Witness reliably jumps in with:

10 hours ago, Witness said:

You were proposing a theory without knowing the facts; the primary one being the definition of God's Temple.  

and this is generally followed by pages and pages of diatribe which always come down to her same regular conclusion:  that she represents a truer anointed than the ones that Jehovah’s Witnesses focus upon. Been there, done that (1000 times) I just didn’t want to go there yet again.

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

this fits well in your idea of Atheistic Man who negate any divinity to any other gods, but consider themselves as god. In final result they are atheistic, as you suggest, because atheism in their own eyes/mind, annuls the existence of any other god - in fact reverses the existence of any other god on them alone to be god.

Yeah. That’s pretty much the point I was making. Again, no need to get too technical here.

[Evacuated]

On 7/19/2019 at 1:14 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

the emergence of a modern-day atheist class, today’s apostasy, that turns upon the theocratic organization under the guise of “protecting people” from its “mind-control?”

I see your point Tom, but I incline more to the view that the modern day "atheist class" is more a result of the activity of the same old "man of lawlessness" that appeared over the 1st-3rd centuries. This class is just an inevitable expression of the "lovers of self" characteristic, spawned by the modern day reaction to apostate religion, particularly (but not exclusively) in Christendom.  I wouldn't honour it with the status even of "man of lawlessness".

The application of the term "man of lawlessness" to Christendom's clergy, as you have described that we make, is quite sufficient for me. Jesus warned of the weeds sown in with the wheat in secret, and a subsequent revelation of their activity and presence in the last days. Matt.13:36-43. Also Paul and Peter warned about their springing from within the congregation, from among those entrusted with the care of the flock. Acts 20:29-30;  2Pet.2:1-3. Paul's reference to a restraint that would get "out of the way", (2Thess.2:7), fits well with the notion of the passing in death of the original apostles.The state of affairs during the time of the last remaining one, John substantiates this development both in the Revelation report by the head of the congregation (Rev. Chap.2-3), and in his letter (1John 2:18-19). 

The current pusilanimous state of the clergy of Christendom in many (not all) parts of the world is no indicator of the need for an emergence of a "new" man of lawlessness. The effects on society of the degraded belief system, practices, and results on laity of the apostate parasitic fungus known as "Christendom's clergy class" are well described by Paul at 2Tim 3:1-7 as a sign of the "last days". This is clear both historically and currently to all who care and, albeit without spiritual significance, equally to those who do not. The power of the clergy is broken, the" man of lawlessness" has been revealed, and much to "his" chagrin, it is true Christians, now known as Jehovah's Witnesses, that have been instrumental in setting in motion this exposure and subsequent withering of power, particularly since 1914CE. (Comp. 2Thess.2:8). But we cannot overlook the fact that the now defunct and exposed clergy class still rears its ugly sting to inflict vindictive damage on true servants of God if possible (See the Russian affair). The foul scorpion has been trampled, but is not yet dead!

The chorus of wailing accompanying your suggestions on this forum reminds me of the "goat songs" of ancient Greece, and I suppose are a rather fitting accompaniment to the inevitable demise of this apostate, self-promotIng demigod of Christendom's clergy in the tradition of the culture "he" so greatly admired.

As for the "temple" reference in v4, this fits well with the application to a false Christian congregation  in view of the illustration of the true anointed Christian congregation as a "temple" Eph.2:20-22. Rather like the Pharisees and scribes who sat themselves in the "seat of Moses"(Matt.23:2), the apostate clergy of Christendom are a counterfeit light to the world.

In my opinion, of course. 

[Space Merchant]

Among every pocket of society, of man, no matter the race and or sex, background ,etc there are those who willfully sin, those who willfully lie, those who deceive and spread forth deception and a list of other things. Such ones hide among good hard working folk, and these same good folk become pawns and or victim, be it man, woman or child, they are all targets of the wicked ones of lawlessness. And even among God's people, there are those who proclaim they reside in the Temple of God, but preaches another doctrine to befit emotion, to deceive and a list of other things, cherry picking and deviating from God's Word, his Order, his Truth.

All such ones they will be found out and they will pay when they are before the white thrown of God.

• Numbers 32:23 - But if you will not do so, behold, you have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.

As Christians, true and faithful, who take up the New Covenant that came forth by means of Jesus, to take his command concerning the commission and what promises await us as God's people, it is our job to proclaim the gospel of the Christ and the news itself to the people, and with this information proclaimed to them, by means of their free will, it is for them to decided to on God's side or on the side of lawlessness.

As is said by many of us - The truth has been given, do what you will with it.

Because at the end of the day, God places only 2 things before each and everyone one of us.

Life and Death

As to the chose, it is up to the person.

All man is imperfect, and among us there are those who commit brazen and disgusting acts, violence acts, deceptive, etc. But at the same time, there are those out there with good intent, some although misguided, they are good folk who needs the message of which Jesus commanded us to proclaim by means of the Commission.

That being said, you give a tool, a hammer, to a good man so he can build a house, this same tool you give to a bad man he will threaten and kill with it. The hammer is merely a tool, but the intent of man, be it good or bad is visible, and it shows just how far today's society actually is, in a sense, a literal good vs. evil scenario, hero vs. villain sense.

A man who sins or teachings falsey out of willfulness, will only have this to hear from our Lord Jesus,

• Matthew 7:23 -  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The Kingdom of God is not for those who willfully go over and or is against God's Law or his Christ.

 

[Space Merchant]

On 7/19/2019 at 2:14 PM, Anna said:

Trinity and hellfire

And these are the very teachings that is on a strong decline. Falsehood of mainstream Christendom is dying, hence why they have a strong grip on attempting to save themselves. Such falsehood has prompted many to speak against it, I myself, comrades of mine such as the late warrior of Christ, Soulja and Solider of God, Kel, etc.

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, Outta Here said:

In my opinion, of course

You are right, of course, as regards the overall picture. 

“Yes, in her [Babylon the Great] was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”  Rev 18:24

“All those who have been slaughtered” is a big category, and it is especially huge if we equate slaughter to death, since no one would have died at all were it not for rebellion back in Eden. Most die, not due to acts of commission, but due to acts of omission. The Man of Lawlessness does not teach biblical truth, and the sheep, as a consequence, are found roaming the hills, and land themselves into all sorts of mischief, atheism being one of those mischiefs. Had they not been force-fed a diet of spiritual junk food, they might not have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, asserting that not only are the doctrines untrue, but also God.

So the origin of the Man of Lawlessness may be correct, but I am not sure that we keep up with its modern evolutions. Sometimes I think that we do the equivalent of railing about Egypt or Assyria, and don’t grasp that other heads have emerged in the seven-headed wild beast. The “apostates” that cause us trouble today are overwhelmingly atheistic. You mentioned Lloyd recently. He is atheist, and all those close to him that he works with. The media people, be it print or video, who “accuse the brothers day and night before our God” are almost always atheistic, Every general needs to know the enemy. We do ourselves a disservice if we imagine that today’s enemy is religious. It leads to miscalculations as to how to oppose him. Sometimes, we imagine that explaining doctrine clearly will serve to rectify things.

7 hours ago, Outta Here said:

clergy class still rears its ugly sting to inflict vindictive damage on true servants of God if possible (See the Russian affair).

I don’t think that’s true, and it is a good case in point. Buy too much into this and it would appear that if the clergy were to disappear, our problems would be over. In fact, the clergy has practically disappeared from the standpoint of influence, and our problems come upon us full-throttle. 

 Nobody believes me on this. They just assume that the Russian Orthodox Church is behind the ban. They have said that they are not. I am inclined to believe them. To be sure, most there squealed with delight when the ban on Witnesses went into effect, like kids on Christmas morning, but the thinkers among them don’t like it. They think that the same legal reasonings being used against us could also be used against them. They also regard themselves as the true church, and THAT is now illegal under the new laws first applied to Witnesses.

The centerpiece of my “theory” is articles such as this one in the Daily Caller:

https://dailycaller.com/2017/07/23/the-french-connection-how-the-russian-orthodox-church-and-the-putin-administration-colluded-with-a-french-ngo-to-destroy-the-jehovahs-witnesses/

We fixate on the Russian Orthodox Church because we have not moved on from the days of the Roman Catholic Church in 1950s Quebec, and 1940s America and Europe, when religion truly did orchestrate the mischief. The anti-cult movement of today that would take out ALL religion starts with the biblical faith that is most clearly “no part of this world,” but it is hardly friendlier with other types. We should know the enemy.

Recently in field service a woman answered my companion’s knock and said she wouldn’t speak with us since she “follows the Word of God.” Thus, she drew “battle lines,” and it was hard to not respond in kind. My companion began to go where we so often go, where I used to go, and a silly little contest begins of searching for chinks in her “armor,” since we are loath to leave an “objection” such as hers unanswered. After all, we also think that we are following the Word of God.

After a time, I interrupted to say: “Look, you believe in God and you think we’re doing it all wrong. We believe in God and we think you’re doing it all wrong. We will steal sheep from your church if we can and you will do the same to us. Let’s just accept that as a given. Either way it is a search for God and a desire to worship him.” With that, I made a point about the “shocking disregard for Jesus” prevalent in the world today, and a brief defused conversation ensued. We parted with her thinking that we were, at least in some respects, on the same page. And we were. We both have a common enemy who is on the ascent.

The Western clergy is licking its wounds these days. It is the atheists who are riding tall. It may be correct to identify the Man of Lawlessness with a religious faction—it certainly was that way in the early centuries—but its latest manifestation is not religious and has no use for God, having elevated other concerns to that status.

[TrueTomHarley]

What surprises me as I go through the sequential schedule of Bible reading, now focused on the letters of Paul, is how well they anticipate current “anti-cultist” complaints of being brainwashed, misled, duped, and so forth. What would appear to be a brand new scenario is just history recycled—put on steroids by modern viral methods of communication. Given that the following was said then, when the only communication was word-of-mouth, it is not at all surprising that it would be so prolific today:

“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2, as though the accusation of those things was commonplace.

“Nevertheless, you say, I was “crafty” and I caught you “by trickery,” he says again at 2 Corinthians 12:16. For sure, Solomon had a point: “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccles 1:9)

Do “apostates” proliferate today, as though something new? It’s the oldest game in town. “For there are many—I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping—who are walking as enemies of the torture stake of the Christ. Their end is destruction, and their god is their belly, and their glory is really their shame, and they have their minds on earthly things.” (Philippians 3:18-19)

”Having their mind on earthly things” is where its at today, and there are endless people who obsess over petty freedoms at the expense of totally missing the real ones. Their “critical thinking” has sold them down the river; they have shipwrecked whatever faith they once had—just like Paul says about two actual malcontents in the first century, when he advised Timothy to “go on waging the fine warfare, holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith.  Hymenaeus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 3:18-19)

What exactly is it to be “handed over to Satan?” The only other use of the expression (1 Corinthians 5:5) makes clear that it is expulsion from the congregation. Today their counterparts on social media protest loudly that discipline.

They protest another sort of discipline as well. “Just as I encouraged you to stay in Ephesus when I was about to go to Macedonia, so I do now, in order for you to command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.” Today the ones so “commanded” would hop on social media to rail that you can’t even breathe a word different from the tyrannical men on top to be muzzled at first transgression, and ejected at second.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult if and only if the Bible is a cult manual. Nobody has apostates like Jehovah’s Witnesses. Nobody has apostates more prolific, more determined, and in some cases they seem almost deranged—I mean, if someone so much as farts at Bethel, there is one of these yo-yos to start a thread on it, which is not ignored, but is joined in by countless persons in sympathy, some of whom are coherent and some of whom are pure loons.

It is as it should be. We should be proud of our apostates. Nobody else has anyone like them. What if they did not exist? Would you not have to wonder why? No writer of the New Testament fails to deal with them. What if there were no mention of them today? Would it not indicate that the faith had so strayed from its roots to embrace contemporary thinking that there was little to apostatize from?

I will admit that the only apostates that interest me are the ones that go atheist, which partly accounts for my take on the 2 Thessalonians “Man of Lawlessness.” Having learned the man-made origins of Trinity and the immortal soul, and having come to appreciate the damage these teachings do to to a close relationship with God, can one really go back to them? Often the “believing” apostates do not—they simply become ambiguous on such doctrines, thinking that they hardly matter—to each his own. Essentially, they want to retain God, but they acquiesce to the greater world molding their thinking as to outlook, goals, and morals. They want to “throw off all restraint” and in no time at all, they have lost whatever unity they once had. When they can be distracted from attacking their former roots on social media, they are to found lambasting each other over differences in matters scientific, medical, climate, politics, etc.

 

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley  You certainly are an author of fairy tales and you are good at it too. Keep it up please it gives me plenty to laugh at after a morning of hard work. I'm back at that big house again doing some physical work as a favour to its owner. Well I'm totally baffled spiritually, out of the frying pan and into the fire it seems. BUT staying in the frying pan would  have got me cooked that's for sure. So I'm thinking I might as well be helpful in some way to other people, as it seems I cannot help myself right now. 

BUT. Lets quote your words :- 

What surprises me as I go through the sequential schedule of Bible reading, now focused on the letters of Paul, is how well they anticipate current “anti-cultist” complaints of being brainwashed, misled, duped, and so forth. What would appear to be a brand new scenario is just history recycled—put on steroids by modern viral methods of communication. Given that the following was said then, when the only communication was word-of-mouth, it is not at all surprising that it would be so prolific today:

OK. Catholics could say the same,  and any other 'brand' of Christian.  Mormons maybe. However you are pretending that it is the same, But it isn't. 

“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2, as though the accusation of those things was commonplace.

“Nevertheless, you say, I was “crafty” and I caught you “by trickery,” he says again at 2 Corinthians 12:16. For sure, Solomon had a point: “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccles 1:9)

The Bible Students / GB / JW Org / W/t cannot truthfully say the above.  Promising Armageddon in 1914, suggesting Armageddon in 1975,  saying 'Millions now living will never die' (just as the Devil told Eve she would not die), was crafty, trickery, and the continued rumours that Armageddon is 'so close' and 'that only those inside the JW Org will be saved', when at the same time a member of the Governing Body said that 'they might not be the only channel of communication God is using', well you work it out for yourself.  

They protest another sort of discipline as well. “Just as I encouraged you to stay in Ephesus when I was about to go to Macedonia, so I do now, in order for you to command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.” 

False stories, um, 'this generation will not pass away', oh dear it didn't happen. So make up another story, the generation isn't one generation , it's two overlapping generations. 

Do “apostates” proliferate today, as though something new? 

You may have to break this down a bit Tom. First of all it depends what YOU mean as an apostate. Are you talking about those who have found fault with the GB and JW Org / W/t ? If so you cannot truly compare it to first century Christians.  In the first century it would probably have been the Jews that were used to living under Law and Jewish customs. But now you are comparing that with ex-JW's that are used to living under the JW rules. The early Christian way was a totally new way of living to the Jews. But if you are calling ex-JW's apostates then those ex-JW's know what life is like as a JW. Totally different circumstances. Why ? Because ex-JWs are looking at the GB / JWOrg / W/t and comparing it to God's written word the Bible / Bible standards. 

Let's go back to this :- 

“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2,  

I only have to write three letters here . C, S, A.  Tom and others you KNOW that the GB / JW Org / W/t is in trouble in, Australia, America, Canada, UK, Netherlands, and I'm probably not completely up to date on any others.  Now if only one third of the accusations are true that is still a lot of Pedophilia in the JW Org, and still a lot of mishandling of 'justice for victims' from a scriptural viewpoint. Something about 'looking after widows and orphans' etc.... 

We could mention also about baptism and how the JW Org makes it more than just confirming dedication to God through Christ, but includes becoming part of the 'club' and obeying GB rules. (But that is a totally different topic). 

Having their mind on earthly things” is where its at today, and there are endless people who obsess over petty freedoms at the expense of totally missing the real ones

Petty freedoms, but why petty restrictions ?  The suit and tie, the Beard problem. Why put in place restrictions that are TOTALLY NOT SCRIPTURAL ?  And who gives authority to those that make these petty restrictions ?  That brings us back once again to this :- 

“We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one,” says the apostle at 2 Corinthians 7:2

The GB have stolen the recognition that ALL Anointed are the Faithful and Discreet Slave class. The GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed, Luke 14, v11....  The GB have strongly hinted at the instruction that the rest of the Anointed should not get in touch with each others , but should remain in subjection to the GB. 

So here I have given proof that what Paul speaks/writes about is in no way similar to the problems in the JW Org today. 

The ones that Tom calls apostates will vary as all people are individuals. But Tom seems to need to think that apostates have deserted God and Christ. No Tom, many have just woken up to the falseness of the GB and it's two orgs. 

Once again I will end by saying that God may totally cleanse the JW Org and then use it, or God may start a new organisation of truthful Anointed ones. 

Sorry, I forgot one of the most important points too. Tom is comparing totally UNINSPIRED MEN therefore leading an uninspired organisation, to the Early Christian organisation which was full of INSPIRED MEN INCLUDING PAUL.