WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, xero said:

Your posts make me feel sad. I don't know why you keep on the attack. It isn't helping you or anyone else I can see.

I remember a brother once talking about someone, I forget who who was never a firebrand in service, commenting, cleaning the hall or anything else of this sort become as he described it "A pioneer apostate".

I wondered why people who didn't believe JW's had anything to offer would expend so much energy attacking them. I mean if what JW's have is vomit, then why go back and spend time examining the vomit?

It is somewhat true what you say. Talking about bad things is poisonous. But should we wait for “little kids” or maybe “stones” to start talking about it?

[Witness]

The last servant/s sent by Jesus, preach truth (“two”, John 8:17) in “sackcloth”.  Their message concerns the spiritual Temple given over to the Gentiles.  (2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 11:1-3) How clear this is, as the elder body “represents the royal priesthood”/dwelling of God (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17); and as the GB admonishes, the authentic priesthood must not “bond”, they must not gather to study God’s Word.  This is the behavior of the antichrist, by preventing the members of Christ’s body to join under their head.  “Against Christ”, and those members of his body. 

Yes, God’s servants who speak as I do, experience overwhelming grief, and Satan makes sure of it.  They reveal what God’s saints are up against – the captivity to what appeared to be truth, and which tasted “sweet” in their mouths as God’s Word (Ps 119:103; Ezek 3:1-3), but for those awake, they find it “bitter” in the stomach. The mix of false teachings with a little truth can only be swallowed, when one is continually “drunk” on this false prophet/Harlot’s wine -  her concoction of poisoned “waters”/teachings.  (Rev 17:1,2; 8:10,11; 13:11,12)  John received this sweet/bitter scroll from the angel/messenger, and is then told,  “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.”  Rev 10:8-10

The kings are those that should join under Christ. These are whom he is concerned about, not the nations of “kings” on the political fronts (Rev 1:5).  All JWs, are people from all nations and languages.   

These truths are only evident to those whose hearts desire to have the veil taken from their eyes. The impressed motto to “wait on Jehovah” to fix any glitches that JWs may actually discern, defines their “peace and security” derived from “Jehovah’s organization”.  1 Thess 5:3 They are told to put their anxious thoughts aside, and keep faith in "Jehovah's organization" - what a strong delusion this is.  (2 Thess 2:9-12)

“Therefore, since we have this ministry because we were shown mercy, we do not give up. ² Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful things, not acting deceitfully or distorting the word of God, but commending ourselves before God to everyone’s conscience by an open display of the truth. ³ But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. ⁴ In their case, the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ⁵ For we are not proclaiming ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’s sake. ⁶ For God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God’s glory in the face of Jesus Christ.”  2 Cor 4:1-6

Wt’s damage control, ever being processed, is now the videos to be produced about Jesus.  Of course!  JWs can then say, see?  We uphold and give honor to the Son of God. 

No. 

Paul’s message to the members of Christ’s body…

For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy, because I have promised you in marriage to one husband—to present a pure virgin to Christ. ³ But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ⁴ For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!  2 Cor 12:2-4

And that describes the Wt.  All inside, including the anointed members of Jesus, give devotion to a wicked slave, the elder body and the organization, that no other earthly organization can defeat.  (Rev 13:4)  

 The cry that is being trumpeted, is “come out of her my people" - to stop tolerating the sins of the Wt. Rev 18:4-8

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:30 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

“Villains” I like for its Old West flavor.

Well maybe even Jesus was called a villian. A scripture says he 'was counted among theives'.

And even the Apostles must have been counted as villians, being locked in prisons, given beatings, etc.  

So in this sense, by serving God, being counted as a villian, I would call it an honour. 

[xero]

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is somewhat true what you say. Talking about bad things is poisonous. But should we wait for “little kids” or maybe “stones” to start talking about it?

I don't believe in a "we" when it comes to taking responsibility for "my" moral decisions. There is no end to the deflections which I or anyone else might latch on to committed by others, but is this getting you anywhere?

I'll tell you, you don't have to be an expert to find out what's wrong or supposedly wrong with anything. Anyone w/half a brain just googles and gets all the garbage he might ever want to sift through. So unless you're trying to monetize this line of complaining, I don't see the point. It's not like anyone has the scoop.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

18 hours ago, xero said:

I don't see the point

We do not know who reads this forum. Are there lots of people that just come here quietly and read it ?

So any information given here could well be read by others that are seeking 'truth' of all types.  After all, it was online that i first found out the truth about the CSA in JW Org. So putting links on this forum could be helpful to others that may never even comment here. 

It also helps to find out if any JWs are willing to admit to the faults in their Organistion. For instance, @JW Insider has always seemed balanced in his views. 

This forum has helped me with a Facebook page that I run too. Keep the information coming folks. It all helps. 

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, xero said:

I don't believe in a "we" when it comes to taking responsibility for "my" moral decisions.

Me too. But few details exist in this issue, also.

I don't believe in many of the things (what) GB teach others. But JW people holds such "unbelievers" responsible for their decisions in this matter. They think they are to blame (for living organization or if they die in Armageddon, etc). They think they are to blame if they speak out against GB doctrines. 

That would mean, GB can say whatever they want, but it’s your fault if you respect them in their "foolishness". When JW member decide to not respect GB decisions (and perhaps he/she becomes ex-JW) is that "moral" or "immoral " decision?

Some acts of "faithful" servants in the past contributed to collective punishment. And God didn't ask (did not hold a referendum) what and how every single man, woman and child feel about King's decisions and behavior. In such examples no one cared about "we or my". All nation suffered because of "my" or "we".  

[Witness]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I don't believe in many of the things (what) GB teach others. But JW people holds such "unbelievers" responsible for their decisions in this matter. They think they are to blame (for living organization or if they die in Armageddon, etc). They think they are to blame if they speak out against GB doctrines. 

 

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That would mean, GB can say whatever they want, but it’s your fault if you respect them in their "foolishness". When JW member decide to not respect GB decisions (and perhaps he/she becomes ex-JW) is that "moral" or "immoral " decision?

Someone can leave the organization knowing full well that GB's teachings are wrong, such as the existence of an earthly organization and GB in the first century.  Even though a GB leader validated that it was not so in the past (Fred Franz), anyone today who rejects this teaching, can be disfellowshipped.  It is because the organization is huge now and vitally important in the minds of men, (but not so in the minds of God and Jesus Christ).   Franz was never disfellowshipped for his radical view, but will always be highly respected, also by a recent member of the GB who now preaches that oh yes! there WAS an earthly organization established in the first century.  Thus, any rank and file member who disagrees verbally with this, are shunned - "killed" through disfellowshipping. (John 16:2; Rev 13:15)  The rank and file are convinced that that these are the rebels and are "dead" in God's eyes.    Fred Franz on the other hand, will always be considered a "pillar" of the organization, as A. Morris had previously stated.  

 This reminds me of Isa 32 - 

Indeed, a king will reign righteously,
and rulers will rule justly.

2 Each will be like a shelter from the wind,
a refuge from the rain,
like flowing streams in a dry land
and the shade of a massive rock in an arid land.
3 Then the eyes of those who see will not be closed,
and the ears of those who hear will listen.
4 The reckless mind will gain knowledge,
and the stammering tongue will speak clearly and fluently.

5 A fool will no longer be called a noble,
nor a scoundrel said to be important.
6 For a fool speaks foolishness
and his mind plots iniquity.
He lives in a godless way
and speaks falsely about the Lord.
He leaves the hungry empty
and deprives the thirsty of drink.

7 The scoundrel’s weapons are destructive;
he hatches plots to destroy the needy with lies,
even when the poor person says what is right.
8 But a noble person plans noble things;
he stands up for noble causes.

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 2/21/2021 at 6:08 PM, xero said:

I wondered why people who didn't believe JW's had anything to offer would expend so much energy attacking them. I mean if what JW's have is vomit, then why go back and spend time examining the vomit?

You were able to get right to the point in the way you worded the question. I tried the same question once with "Witness" because I also know someone else who has all kinds of problems with various doctrines and practices of the WTS, but who also expends so much energy on those problems. He is so negative that I have come very close to asking him why he hangs in there. He believes, of course, there is something special about the Witnesses, and believes that Jehovah is still using them. He expects "something very significant" to happen soon, centered around the WTS.

This appears to be similar to the thinking of "Witness" in that she believes that true anointed persons will be attracted to the WTS, where they will be tested because Jehovah has allowed a distortion to occur within the WTS organization. So she has this idea that it is, to some extent, an organization used by Jehovah, but only up to the point of attracting truly anointed persons to go through a test. But this implies that Jehovah tests in a way that entices persons into a trap, which I think is impossible, according to James:

(James 1:12, 13) . . .on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving Him. 13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

The other (ex-elder) I know has hinted at an idea in his case that perhaps Jehovah might use him personally as a means to correct things. And he writes to the WTS regularly. I think putting oneself personally into such an equation is the most problematic part. I haven't heard anything directly from "Witness" that implies she thinks she has a personal responsibility in this regard or if she thinks it might be true of a "prophetess" named "Pearl" whom she often quotes.

I guess it would be hypocritical to condemn on this idea alone, since all of us feel a personal responsibility to copy the example of Ezekiel as a "watchman." In that example, the person who feels they need to share a scriptural warning should feel a personal responsibility to share it.

There is a person on a site who calls himself the "Watchman" (or is it e-Watchman), and I think this is their own argument about Watchtower criticisms. In any case, they all must think there is something very special about the WTS so that their energy goes against it instead of being equally shared among the problems of Mormons, Catholics, Scientologists, etc. 

There was another "Ezekiel Watchman" who regularly wrote to Fred Rusk at Bethel in the 1970's. Fred Rusk was the primary Watchtower magazine editor during those years, and although he laughed at most of the "Ezekiel Watchman" rants, he took them seriously enough to read through them before tossing them. He even shared one of the 10-page papers with me once. (We worked near each other, and he gave half of my wedding talk.)

I don't have the impression that anyone at WTS HQ reads this site. But, who knows?

[Witness]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So she has this idea that it is, to some extent, an organization used by Jehovah, but only up to the point of attracting truly anointed persons to go through a test. But this implies that Jehovah tests in a way that entices persons into a trap, which I think is impossible, according to James:

JWI, I have never said that God tests us; but God will allow Satan to test us, as he did Jesus Christ and Job.  Would you call the "test" that occurs a "thousand years" after Armageddon put upon man by God? That's not what I remember Wt teaching.  The problem is, their timetable is off.  The test is already in progress and it is based on deceit.  (Matt 24:4,24;Rev 2:20; Rev 13:11,12,14-16)  Once the Kingdom of God comes, death is destroyed. (John 16:33; 1 Cor 15:25,26;Rev 21:3,4)  No test fabricated by Satan will follow.  He is thrown into the lake of fire with the two Beasts of Revelation that are present now.  (Rev 20:7-10)

Luke 22:31; 1 Pet 5:10; Rev 12:10-12

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

his appears to be similar to the thinking of "Witness" in that she believes that true anointed persons will be attracted to the WTS,

Anyone can read of this on my "About me" page which thoroughly explains the trap that comes upon those under the New covenant "woman" in the last days.  

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I haven't heard anything directly from "Witness" that implies she thinks she has a personal responsibility in this regard or if she thinks it might be true of a "prophetess" named "Pearl" whom she often quotes.

Every anointed one has the responsibility for upholding God's truth in Christ.  But do they? Can they under the GB's rule?    Pearl Doxsey is an anointed one - I am not her, and I didn't write the letter "Rachel" addressed to the elder posted on this forum.  My name is Paula.  

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is a person on a site who calls himself the "Watchman" (or is it e-Watchman), and I think this is their own argument about Watchtower criticisms.

He wrote a book, and it is full of lies.  He is a very caustic individual.   I wouldn't be surprised if he returns to the organization once the GB is gone.  Rev 17:15-18,11-13

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In any case, they all must think there is something very special about the WTS

The anointed "Israel" resides in the WT and JWs know it.    That is the only difference about this organization than say, Mormonism.  The end prophesies concern God's holy people. 

[xero]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You were able to get right to the point in the way you worded the question. I tried the same question once with "Witness" because I also know someone else who has all kinds of problems with various doctrines and practices of the WTS, but who also expends so much energy on those problems. He is so negative that I have come very close to asking him why he hangs in there. He believes, of course, there is something special about the Witnesses, and believes that Jehovah is still using them. He expects "something very significant" to happen soon, centered around the WTS.

This appears to be similar to the thinking of "Witness" in that she believes that true anointed persons will be attracted to the WTS, where they will be tested because Jehovah has allowed a distortion to occur within the WTS organization. So she has this idea that it is, to some extent, an organization used by Jehovah, but only up to the point of attracting truly anointed persons to go through a test. But this implies that Jehovah tests in a way that entices persons into a trap, which I think is impossible, according to James:

(James 1:12, 13) . . .on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving Him. 13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

The other (ex-elder) I know has hinted at an idea in his case that perhaps Jehovah might use him personally as a means to correct things. And he writes to the WTS regularly. I think putting oneself personally into such an equation is the most problematic part. I haven't heard anything directly from "Witness" that implies she thinks she has a personal responsibility in this regard or if she thinks it might be true of a "prophetess" named "Pearl" whom she often quotes.

I guess it would be hypocritical to condemn on this idea alone, since all of us feel a personal responsibility to copy the example of Ezekiel as a "watchman." In that example, the person who feels they need to share a scriptural warning should feel a personal responsibility to share it.

There is a person on a site who calls himself the "Watchman" (or is it e-Watchman), and I think this is their own argument about Watchtower criticisms. In any case, they all must think there is something very special about the WTS so that their energy goes against it instead of being equally shared among the problems of Mormons, Catholics, Scientologists, etc. 

There was another "Ezekiel Watchman" who regularly wrote to Fred Rusk at Bethel in the 1970's. Fred Rusk was the primary Watchtower magazine editor during those years, and although he laughed at most of the "Ezekiel Watchman" rants, he took them seriously enough to read through them before tossing them. He even shared one of the 10-page papers with me once. (We worked near each other, and he gave half of my wedding talk.)

I don't have the impression that anyone at WTS HQ reads this site. But, who knows?

One thing I've had hammered into me over the past decades of pioneering, studying w/mentally ill people, people who were out of jail, homeless people, professors of anthropology, teachers of farsi at the local mosque, chinese buddhists from hong kong (using me to practice english), professors of astrophysics, ranchers, ex-football champs, a hip hop artist and so-called normal people is that I'm not more worthy of survival than any of these.

In fact many are arguably better people personality wise. People who really care about other people.

That's been my lesson. I believe the truth of the bible in outline taught by JW's w/exception w/regard to rather specific ideas surrounding certain events in the last 100 years.

My experience coming in was that these were some of the most open-minded people I'd dealt with. I watched them w/my gf for about six months just observing these meetings and going to get togethers (she was studying - I was an unhappy atheist). I felt that out of respect for her interest it was worth my time to watch them for a time to see what I thought of them.

At some point, I thought "I want all my friends to be JW's, but I don't want to be one." I could see weird people in the congregation and normal people - as an outsider. Weird people always give me the creeps, but most of the people I talked with didn't do that, like every other religion.

My change in attitude came from the first apologetics I'd ever seen "Is the Bible Really the Word of God", the old book on Evolution (a little blue one)...then I started hitting Christian stores and found a bunch. I hadn't started to study yet, but went w/my gf to one day of this district convention when they released the book "Life How Did It Get Here - By Evolution or Creation". I read it that night. What's funny is that I had almost all the referenced books because I was taking a lot of evolutionary classes at the university - I was in the midst of E. O Wilson's - Sociobiology and had finished Dawkins book the Selfish Gene. I was amazed. I went and got every book I could find on this, one of my favorites being the book "Darwin Was WRONG - A Study in Probabilities".  After eating up all I could on this, I was a thoroughgoing theist.

So I brightened so no doubt. God exists!.... Next step...has he communicated w/us....

So I doubled up on apologetics relative to the manuscript and historical evidence for the Bible. I used Gleason Archer's "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction" and "Is The Bible Really the Word of God" ...anyway a lot more in this regard....I bought the cassettes for the bible and listened to them while I was running.  (I'd started to study now, because I felt the guy who was studying w/me was OK, but he was kindof not that logical, so I got passed on to another couple of elders and we'd go through the material.

It'd go like "How does that make you feel about Jehovah" (a sample question), and I'd go "I can see from x that if y were true it would be reasonable to feel z, but I'm not quite there yet."

It took a while. I had more questions on biology and so they brought in this sister who'd been a masters biology major and I got to grill her w/questions.

Me - "What about the dinosaurs?"

Her - "Soil building takes time. Dinosaurs were great processors of plant material....."

It went like that.

I wasn't and still haven't been thoroughly convinced on some of these matters. (but is it important, when there IS a creator?)

Then there was the whole 1914 thing. That was something needing analysis. The question then and now was not whether the Jews were in captivity 70 years, that was not disputed....At least not to believers, but chasing this chronology is a collossal pit....Not that I don't recommend chasing it, just that no one was ever convinced of anything via chronology. (Except if you were a Jew in Babylon and you got word it was getting close)

 

Anyway...I've wandered. My final point is that I don't believe the bar for survival to be only JW's. I'm thinking it's the majority. Now does this mean some event may be allowed to impact the earth and the only way people survive is through divine intervention? I think so. Then the rest who perished in my view would likely get resurrected - face it - it's only the blasphemy against God's spirit which according to the Insight book is hard to know if anyone has done this or not....so I'm sure Jehovah is more merciful than any of us could imagine.

So then you follow your conscience - it's yours to follow or not, to wound or not. If you know how to do what's right and don't that's on you. If someone's doing something wrong and that's out of your control - well "Desiderata"...

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, xero said:

One thing I've had hammered into me over the past decades of pioneering, studying w/mentally ill people, people who were out of jail, homeless people, professors of anthropology, teachers of farsi at the local mosque, chinese buddhists from hong kong (using me to practice english), professors of astrophysics, ranchers, ex-football champs, a hip hop artist and so-called normal people is that I'm not more worthy of survival than any of these.

That takes a humility not found among all of us. Learning from our students rather than thinking only of ourselves as the teacher can be very beneficial.

My wife and I have years of pioneering behind us, although we are less active now. We both learned a lot from studying with a couple where the wife was mentally ill ("possession" issues), and they became Witnesses with no further issues that I have heard about. My wife and I studied with another mentally ill woman who had been in a jail (NYC Creedmoor), and whose fleshly brother (also an addict) joined one time creating a scene that brought about an assault situation for the police. There was no success here in converting the person, but it created a deep friendship and evidently a life-long change in the woman who has overcome addiction, and is still loved deeply by us. She actually sees herself as a Witness, although the elders here would not allow baptism.

I studied for years with persons inside medium and high-security prisons. Altogether, it's like a course in psychology.

I studied with one family where the husband was a policeman, the wife took a year of studying and long late-night hours with me on the phone to help her overcome her smoking addiction. They were baptized together. Their two children were too young at the time, but one has been baptized since. This is a sad situation for me, because we love the family and have been close, but he is an elder now and realizes that I didn't believe in the 1914 chronology because of things he remembered in the way I studied it with him. He confirmed this by asking me directly, and has now asked that we have no more contact.

Very early in my pioneering (pre-Bethel) I loved studying the Evolution book and the "Is the Bible Really the Word of God?" book with university students. It was easy to pick up a dozen Bible Studies, and this made the pioneering hour quota go by so easily. (Strangely, one of these studies left Missouri after getting baptized and joined the congregation I was assigned to in NY at Bethel.)  My mother is pioneering as we speak and calls in to the meeting for service every day before letters or phone calls, and she currently has only one regular Bible Study. She stays on the line with one of the other sisters so they can talk together while writing letters, but getting in the quota is so slow-going for her.

1 hour ago, xero said:

That's been my lesson. I believe the truth of the bible in outline taught by JW's w/exception w/regard to rather specific ideas surrounding certain events in the last 100 years.

That can be read with a bit of ambiguity. If you care to, I am always happy to discuss.

1 hour ago, xero said:

Then there was the whole 1914 thing. That was something needing analysis. The question then and now was not whether the Jews were in captivity 70 years, that was not disputed....At least not to believers, but chasing this chronology is a collossal pit.

I either join or create a discussion on the topic about once a year on the forum, because I have now spent enough time on the topic to be convinced in my own mind. It's not something I feel is specifically important in the long run, but it's part of an ongoing and ever-resurfacing problem of trying to motivate activity (works) by emphasizing that we have special knowledge of the times and seasons. Going back to review how we (as an organization) received this 1914 tradition was an important lesson in humility for me. But sharing that lesson will just be seen by most as the exact opposite of humility and some will vehemently oppose discussing it reasonably.

1 hour ago, xero said:

My final point is that I don't believe the bar for survival to be only JW's. I'm thinking it's the majority. Now does this mean some event may be allowed to impact the earth and the only way people survive is through divine intervention? I think so.

I've reached the same idea, and I know that other JWs have also concluded the same. One or two others have implied as much on this forum.