Would you like to know the truth about Hell?

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:

Jesus Christ didn't speak nor teach about Hell. 

You must be joking right? JWInsider just showed you the error of your statement. 

19 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Looking up various translations will help give you the proper meaning of hell, which is hades, sheol, or the grave.

Matt 5:29-30, Matt 10:28, Matt 11:23, Matt 16:18, Matt 18:9, Matt 23:33, Mark 9:43-47, Luke 10:15, Luke 12:5

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Again, the question is about Luke 16:19-21. Why did Jesus use a false doctrine as the basis for the descriptions in his illustration?

That would be dishonest, wrong and very misleading, would it not? Not something the Son of God would do. So the answer to your question would be that He did not use false doctrine. It is only the perception and opinion of men that credit dishonesty with Jesus. 

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I can't prove it, but I do NOT think the Jews during Jesus' time believed in any hell such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, etc. believed in. 

To the best of my knowledge, in Jewish literature there was NEVER a Jewish "horror" story about any poltergeists, ghosts, vampires or anything else that somehow survived death without direct and specific intervention by Jehovah God.  They all knew the dead were just dead ... no more.

No one can say that "the Jews during Jesus' time believed" in a particular doctrine one way or another, because there was no single belief system. There were "Jewish" gnostics during Jesus' time before there were "Christian" gnostics. The Sadducees denied the resurrection, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection. There were Samaritan Jews, and Elephantine Jews with their famous Jewish Temple. There were Essenes and there was the Dead Sea sect that produced the sectarian documents of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The period leading up to Jesus' time was filled with literature that appears influenced by their time in Babylon, their time under Persian rule, and especially their time under Greek Hellenistic influence.

And of course the variations of politically-oriented fundamentalist counter-Hellenism, when the influence of the Maccabees and Pharisees finally appeared to free most of centrist Judaism from idolatry. More specifically political, of course, were the Herodians, anti-Herodians, and various revolutionary parties, with the most successful of those coming from around Galilee. 

But the literature between the so-called Old Testament and New Testament does show an increase in beliefs about the condition of the dead in the afterlife that included a Greek-like Hades. (The Greek Hades was not full of fire, but could include difficult conditions of torture and fire depending on the person's conduct in life. In most Greek versions of Hades, persons died and had very little knowledge or control of their situation in the afterlife. A very powerful person might have more ability to speak with others, but in many versions of Greek Hades, you would think of a situation similar to that of the rich man in Hades similar to Jesus illustration.

[BroRando]

Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations to those he deemed were not deserving of the knowledge of the Kingdom of the Heavens.  He would give an explanation to his followers in private. " So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?”  In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted." (Matthew 13:10-11) 

Hell is a doctrine from 'apostate christianity' Christendom.  Those who take the lead among Christendom are the ones being plucked out as 'weeds' to be transferred to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not a place but rather a condition. It's Figurative.  However, such ones are deserving of dying the second death of everlasting destruction. Their is no escape for them, so they begin the weeping and gnashing of teeth against the Good News of God's Kingdom.  They know they are being cut off and hate it and try with all their might to stop the Good News. 

Soon, when JW's stop knocking on your door, it's a War Signal that the one's outside our inner rooms are all dying the second death. "Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:9-10)

 

 

 

[BroRando]

The first century Christians did not believe in a hell or hades.  The scriptures in the original were talking about Death.  Not another afterlife that continues eternally.  Such ones reject the teachings of Jesus Christ.   "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out," (John 5:28) 

Hades was part of Greek Mythology and a Pagan teaching, yet, that teaching was falsely inserted into the scriptures, or should I say, the Greek New Testament as Christendom began making copies to be distributed. Then, it was later changed once again by Christendom to dampened the Greek Religion of Mythology and hades became known as hell in the 4th Century.  Many pagans in Christendom clung to the hades concept of an everlasting burning concept to bilk the congregation to pray for pay sermons of loved dead ones which is forbidden in the Mosaic law. 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So the answer to your question would be that He did not use false doctrine. It is only the perception and opinion of men that credit dishonesty with Jesus. 

Jesus could use a false doctrine if he wished. He made many points based on the false doctrines that people around him believed. But in this case Jesus didn't explain whether or not the foundation of this illustration was false. I'm wondering if other Witnesses have come up with good ways to explain this.

[Evacuated]

 

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what did Jesus say about hell.

 

2 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Jesus Christ didn't speak nor teach about Hell.

If Jesus had spoken in English, would he have used the English word "hell" when quoting from Hebrew texts that used the Hebrew word "Sheol"? Perhaps he would have, if he had felt that the basic meaning of the word in English conveyed a meaning sufficiently matching what was commonly believed by those who adhered to the Biblical concepts attached to the Hebrew word. After all, both Sheol and the corresponding Greek word, Hades, were used interchangeably by Bible writers, despite there having been unscriptural and false ideas also associated with each word. 

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, defines “Hell” as coming “from O[ld] E[nglish] helan, to conceal”. So despite the common misguided idea of "Hell" being a place where the wicked are kept alive in fiery torment, there is also a totally different association of meaning to the word related to it's origin and in keeping with a more Scriptural understanding.

Hence we have interesting secular usages in English: 

• The word helmet, literally a ‘hell-met’, meaning a covering or concealment for the head. Hardly would anyone set their "head on fire" to protect it.
• In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them in a fire, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar in Winter, covering them, in order to preserve them;
• To "hell a house" has been said to refer to putting a thatched roof on a building  to cover it, certainly not to set it on fire.

For me, however the most telling and simply thorough refutation to the false notion that sinners are somehow kept alive to be burned forever in a place of fire is clear in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus recorded at John 3:16: 

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."
 

 

[BroRando]

This is true but that would go against the scriptures that prophesied about him. Hades and Hell were not doctrines in the first century to be truthful about it.  The subject was DEATH/GRAVE...   Paganism seeped in after the 1st century as hades and then hell in the 4th century.  So Jesus did not speak of hades or hell.... if you don't want to believe my witness then look in the Old Testament and see for yourself.  

"His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth." (Isaiah 53:9)

"Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit." (Psalm 34:13)

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21)

"Christ never committed any sin. He never spoke deceitfully." (1 Peter 2:22)  

Hades and Hell are deceitful doctrines of man.  Even with that said, look and gain understanding. (Rev 20:14) translations:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (KJV)

and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. (Darby)

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.(WEB)

and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death; (YLT)

One can easily conclude that it's talking about death and the grave that will be destroyed and yes even if we include the pagan doctrines of hades and hell, THEY will be Destroyed... . "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)   What the Bible Says About Life and Death?

 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:

Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations to those he deemed were not deserving of the knowledge of the Kingdom of the Heavens

True, but never did He deceive or mislead.

 

1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:

Hell is a doctrine from 'apostate christianity' Christendom.  Those who take the lead among Christendom are the ones being plucked out as 'weeds' to be transferred to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not a place but rather a condition. It's Figurative.  However, such ones are deserving of dying the second death of everlasting destruction. Their is no escape for them, so they begin the weeping and gnashing of teeth against the Good News of God's Kingdom.  They know they are being cut off and hate it and try with all their might to stop the Good News. 

Soon, when JW's stop knocking on your door, it's a War Signal that the one's outside our inner rooms are all dying the second death.

Gobbly gook, none of what you just stated has anything to do with the topic at hand. Your first statement has yet to be supported with anything you mention.  

[Shiwiii]

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus could use a false doctrine if he wished. He made many points based on the false doctrines that people around him believed. But in this case Jesus didn't explain whether or not the foundation of this illustration was false. I'm wondering of other Witnesses have come up with good ways to explain this.

I'm not saying He couldn't, I'm saying He didn't. The points He made about those false doctrines with the people around Him were the truth and it shined the light in the error of their ways.  Jesus does not mislead nor deceive. 

[Evacuated]

25 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:

Hades was part of Greek Mythology and a Pagan teaching, yet, that teaching was falsely inserted into the scriptures, or should I say, the Greek New Testament as Christendom began making copies to be distributed.

I am not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that the use of the word Hades was a post-apostolic insertion into the Greek Scriptures? Or do you mean that the false religious concepts associated with the word are what were later introduced by apostates.

It must be the latter view because the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures pre-dates the establishment of the Christian congregation, and itself uses Hades for the Hebrew word Sheol. Perhaps outstandingly so at Ps.16:10, because of the recording by Luke of Peter's application of this text to Jesus. (Acts 2:27, 31).

Please clarify.

[BroRando]

Yes Eoin Joyce (John 3:16) in it's simplicity reveals the truth.  Death is the opposite of Life.  Death is not a place but a condition.  A condition of non- existence. 

Those counted 'wicked' are destroyed by the second death of an everlasting destruction.  They have no hope of a Resurrection. The second death has a Finality to it, much like the symbolism of Sodom and Gomorrah.  "In the same manner, Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." (Jude 7)

Go to Sodom and Gomorrah today, can you find the cities still burning?  No... they have been destroyed and will never be rebuilt.  So when we read scripture that talks about people walking about and melting as to their eyeballs seeping out of their eye sockets, it is figurative speech that they are dying the second death of everlasting destruction.  Armageddon is just that a removal of wickedness.  They simply die off.  But the death they die, is an everlasting one. Jesus will soon his Father Life Force to his Obedient Sheep that are in the 'inner rooms' and they keep living as to come out of the great tribulation.  The others... simple die off just like people are dying today but the Great Tribulation is a 'timed event'.  Jehovah's People will be moved to bring the preaching work to an end.  That my friend is when those outside will be dying the second death... even if they beg, after a certain time, we will not honor such request because they have already been judged. 

Here's the scripture we can soon apply.  "Let the one who is unrighteous continue in unrighteousness, and let the filthy one continue in his filth; but let the righteous one continue in righteousness, and let the holy one continue in holiness." (Rev 22:11)  Soon, it will be done. The Great Tribulation is Spiritual....go on walking and do not look back.  Remember the wife of Lot.....

[Shiwiii]

4 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:

The Great Tribulation is Spiritual

You really think this?