Doesn’t having brothers and sisters being used as security to “protect” Kingdom Halls show a form of idolatry over a building / corporation? Isn’t a human life worth so much more than a building? And what exactly would one of Jehovah’s Witnesses do

[Guest Nicole]

Doesn’t having brothers and sisters being used as security to “protect” Kingdom Halls show a form of idolatry over a building / corporation? Isn’t a human life worth so much more than a building?  And what exactly would one of Jehovah’s Witnesses do if confronted by determined robbers?

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Nicole said:

Doesn’t having brothers and sisters being used as security to “protect” Kingdom Halls show a form of idolatry over a building / corporation?

No more than when David and Samuel the seer assigned Levites to temple guard duty, or when Nehemiah assigned guards during the Jerusalem wall-rebuilding program. 1 Chron. 9:24; Neh. 4:22-23. (comp Acts 4:1).

 

2 hours ago, Nicole said:

Isn’t a human life worth so much more than a building?

Certainly is.

Although security guarding is not just about protecting property. Protecting life of building occupants may be involved and of course there are also safety issues in connection with e.g fire, gas and electrical appliances and supply, drainage, water supply issues, etc. The mere presence of security may act as a deterrent to opportunistic intruders. 

 

2 hours ago, Nicole said:

And what exactly would one of Jehovah’s Witnesses do if confronted by determined robbers?

The society's literature has always advised along the lines of "Your life is your priority. No possession can exceed its value" when confronted by thieves.

Specific instruction would presumably be provided to anyone assigned security responsibilities. Sharing detailed information on those lines may or may not be appropriate on a public forum, so I will leave that to someone else with experience of such things.

[Witness]

According to the bible, I believe there is full evidence that it is idolatry, Nicole.  The Kingdom Halls are not “God’s House”.  There seems to be a comparison made here in a comment of God’s Temple arrangement to kingdom halls.  We now worship in the spirit and the truth, not in any earthly building.

From the Watchtower:

The Jewish temple was a tangible structure at a specific geographic location. But spirit and truth are not material, nor are they limited to any physical place. Thus, Jesus was explaining that true Christian worship would not be centered in or dependent on any material structure or physical location, whether Mount Gerizim, the temple in Jerusalem, or any other sacred place.  W pg 16 #2

It was the early tabernacle that God told Moses to make, yet it was man’s idea to build a temple without consulting God. To Nathan he said,

‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel. And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a name like the name of the great men who are on the earth. Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel. Also I will subdue all your enemies. Furthermore I tell you that the Lord will build you a house. And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David."  1 Chron 17:3-15

We know this prophetically speaks of Jesus.  Heb 1:5,8  It certainly was not fulfilled in Solomon who proved unfaithful at the end of his life.  Matt 12:42; 1 Kings 11:1-11

The eternal House or Temple that Jesus was to build, was his chosen priesthood.  1 Cor 3:9,16,17; Eph 2:20-22; John 2:21; 1 Cor 12:27; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20

Matt 12:6  “But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here!”

God “house” is of his creation and his Way:  Christ the cornerstone, the 12 foundation stones, and the 144,000 living stones of Christ’s Priesthood.  Eph 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5

Under the New Covenant, the new pattern of worship through Christ who is Truth, our obligation to an earthly building is only by the will of man.  By slaving toward its upkeep our “worship” is split and idolatry takes hold. The organization has become "the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one's means of life" by accrediting it as our source of salvation or life; when it truthfully has its origin at the hands of men, thus from the world. What men make on earth, fades.  Only what God makes, lasts. 1 John 2:16

“Set your minds on what is above, not on what is on the earth.”  Col 3:2

“Unless the Lord builds a house,
its builders labor over it in vain;
unless the Lord watches over a city,
the watchman stays alert in vain.”   Ps 127:1

“But collect for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves don’t break in and steal.”  Matt 6:20

 “In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself endure forever.”  Dan 2:44

“Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power.”  1 Cor 15:24

“Look, I have given you the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy; nothing will ever harm you.”  Luke 10:19

“Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared.“ Rev 16:20

“until the Ancient of Days arrived and a judgment was given in favor of the holy ones of the Most High, for the time had come, and the holy ones took possession of the kingdom.”  Dan 7:22

Only what men do according to God’s will, is stored in heaven. The rest is a “commerce” of futility, all the effort put into maintaining, building, expanding, consumes our dedication that belongs solely to God and Christ.  The preaching work is done through Holy Spirit acting within each one us who makes it one's desire of the heart, when in Christ.  Zech 4:6

“And the world with its lust is passing away, but the one who does God’s will remains forever.”  1 John 2:17

If we unconsciously transfer what we intend to do for God, into doing it for a visible organization; we have succumbed to the prophesied idolatry.  Rev 13:16,8

“They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen.”  Rom 1:25

The only treasures worth guarding and storing up for ourselves are those in heaven.

“In truth, the Lord God will help Me;
who will condemn Me?
Indeed, all of them will wear out like a garment;
a moth will devour them.”  Isa 50:9

Job 13:28; James 5:3; Eze 24:6,11-13; Luke 12:39

Before Stephen was stoned, his words revealed the desire of men through history to worship and attend to what they must see or have made:

 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the testimony in the wilderness, just as He who spoke to Moses commanded him to make it according to the pattern he had seen.  Our ancestors in turn received it and with Joshua brought it in when they dispossessed the nations that God drove out before our fathers, until the days of David.  He found favor in God’s sight and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God^[a] of Jacob.  But it was Solomon who built Him a house. However, the Most High does not dwell in sanctuaries made with hands, as the prophet says:

 Heaven is My throne,
and earth My footstool.
What sort of house will you build for Me?
says the Lord,
or what is My resting place?
 Did not My hand make all these things?

“You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always resisting the Holy Spirit; as your ancestors did, so do you.  Acts 7:44-51

According to scriptures, no one can tell us we must worship through an organization, or attend a kingdom hall in order to receive God’s mercy, as the Watchtower itself makes clear:

“As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today.  We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry – be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.”  WT 90 11/1 p. 26

“Ask yourself now, did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church or organization in his day?  No, God does not require us to do that; but he requires us to worship him…We have the Bible to show us the right way.  Certainly it is not necessary for a person to become a member of a church to gain everlasting life.”  WT ‘53/3/1  p. 143

 

 

 

[Evacuated]

35 minutes ago, Witness said:

The Kingdom Halls are not “God’s House”

Irrelevant straw man. 

 

36 minutes ago, Witness said:

There seems to be a comparison made here in a comment of God’s Temple arrangement to kingdom halls.

"seems to be" therefore opinion.

Reference is to security arrangements for protection of life and property as having Scriptural precedence and nothing to do with idolatry by any stretch of the imagination. 

I will not be indulging in any irrelevant, filibustering type postings further on this subject so will stand by my initial response without any more comment

[Ann O'Maly]

On 5/12/2016 at 4:17 AM, Nicole said:

 

Doesn’t having brothers and sisters being used as security to “protect” Kingdom Halls show a form of idolatry over a building / corporation?

 

How is it idolatry to protect one's own or another's property? I don't get it. Besides,

Matthew 24:43 - “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into." 

Was Jesus using an idolater as an analogy for Christian vigilance? 

On 5/12/2016 at 4:17 AM, Nicole said:

And what exactly would one of Jehovah’s Witnesses do if confronted by determined robbers?

Call the police? Hmm. Other than that, I would hope any volunteer security guard would get appropriate training for these kinds of scenarios.

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 

I will not be indulging in any irrelevant, filibustering type postings further on this subject so will stand by my initial response without any more comment

Eoin, I am not asking you to change your opinion or to "filibuster".  

 "No more than when David and Samuel the seer assigned Levites to temple guard duty, or when Nehemiah assigned guards during the Jerusalem wall-rebuilding program. 1 Chron. 9:24; Neh. 4:22-23. (comp Acts 4:1).

This alone is a weak answer to Nicole's question and infers you believe the existence of kingdom halls as part of the organization are blessed by God in the same manner as the early Temple.  I don't believe this. 

If my opinion on why you made such a comment is wrong, then I am not sure why you used such a reference.  

Nicole is right to question this; it is my opinion that any effort to secure an earthly place of worship connected to an organization that touts to be one's only path to salvation, is idolatry.  

 

[Evacuated]

Just now, Witness said:

infers you believe the existence of kingdom halls as part of the organization are blessed by God in the same manner as the early Temple.

Nehemiah was building walls to a city. 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How is it idolatry to protect one's own or another's property? I don't get it. Besides,

Matthew 24:43 - “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into." 

Was Jesus using an idolater as an analogy for Christian vigilance? 

This is a good enough response to your opinion that providing security for a building project is "idolatry".

[Witness]

Nehemiah was restoring the walls of the city of Jerusalem; prophetically, Chapter 2 depicts the situation today concerning anointed ones under oppression in the organization.  New Jerusalem’s walls need to be restored.  The anointed under the New Covenant has been "trampled" "for seven times"...she lies in ruins. Dan 9:24,25; 8:13,14; Rev 11:2; Luke 21:24,25,17-19 as prophetically depicted through this chapter. The symbolic “wall” today has been breached by deceptive doctrines and false authority, allowing the “Temple” to be trampled. Matt 21:33; Neh 1:3; 2:17; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:21,22; Isa 1:4,5; Dan 9:27; Mark 13:14

New Jerusalem or Mt Zion is not the Watchtower, but it is the mother covenant established by the blood of Christ. The “firstfruits”, anointed ones are the first to be ransomed under this New Covenant.  Rev 20:6; James 1:18; Rev 14:4  Once the Bride unites with her husband, the successive seed are those who receive life through the woman/sealed Bride of Christ.  Rev 22:17; John 7:38; Matt 10:40,41; John 6:63; Phil 2:16

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."  Gal 4:26 

Matt 24:43 was a parable to “keep on the watch” for the coming of the Son of Man.  Earlier in this chapter, notice:

“If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it! ²⁴ False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. ²⁵ Take note: I have told you in advance. ²⁶ So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it."

These false messiahs, or “christs” are within the organization.  They have diverted worship due God to the organization; storing up treasures in heaven, “protecting” its earthly interests in the name of God.

"For the idols speak falsehood,
and the diviners see illusions;
they relate empty dreams
and offer empty comfort.
Therefore the people wander like sheep;
they suffer affliction because there is no shepherd."  Zech 10:2

Isa 2:22 - "Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?"

"For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. ³⁹ They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be: ⁴⁰ Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left. ⁴² Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming." Matt 24:38-42

"I will whistle and gather them
because I have redeemed them;
they will be as numerous as they once were.
⁹ Though I sow them among the nations,
they will remember Me in the distant lands;
they and their children will live and return."  Zech 10:8,9; Isa 1:27,28; Rev 18:4-8

In order for the true Temple to be restored as well as New Jerusalem's walls, the anointed who are under this mother covenant of “Jerusalem above” must respond to this “whistle” and “come out of her”, lest they share in her sins and “buy” refinement from Christ.  Rev 18:4  Zech 10:6,7; Isa 1:16

“This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”  Matt 24:44    Zech 9:9-11

I am startled by the situation Nicole presents in her question.  If the “sheep” are used to protect the material interests of a massive organization, and not just any organization, but one that demands obedience on all levels, in the name of God, certainly they “suffer affliction” under the rule of wayward shepherds. When we give our identity to an organization that ascribes itself as Salvation, whatever we do to support it spiritually, physically, or emotionally or is an act of idolatry.  Idolatry seeps through every aspect of the organization.  The Watchtower quotes substantiate its own idolatrous image.  Rev 13:15

[Witness]

On 5/15/2016 at 7:00 PM, Witness said:

These false messiahs, or “christs” are within the organization.  They have diverted worship due God to the organization; storing up treasures in heaven, “protecting” its earthly interests in the name of God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Should read, "they have diverted worship to the organization; storing up treasures on earth....(Matt 6:20)