Anybody want to flee now?

[JW Insider]

13 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

The prophecies about 1260 days and what should happen during that time did not fit that period from November 66 to April 70.

I have hinted at this idea before, because I also have never believed that it is the actual fulfillment of Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Revelation 11 &12. Although I have always avoided them, I know there are books on the topic that would claim something similar. As I read Josephus' "Wars" again last week, I came across some very intriguing points that are rarely talked about. While reading, I am Googling some of the details, like dates, people and various cities he mentions, and have been finding many other materials that I might read someday.

Some of these materials do claim that what should have happened prophetically actually DID happen in the period from late 66 (or early 77)  to various dates within 70. Some even find periods of 1290 and 1335 days pointed to. I was surprised to see these books dating back to the mid-1800's or before. I just read a few pages of The Apocalypse fulfilled; or, or Answer to Apocalyptic Sketches by Dr Cumming By Philip Charles Soulbieu DESPREZ (1861) on Google Books, and noticed that the author was intrigued by exactly the same points I had marked up in Josephus.

29 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

But it is interesting that we can find a couple of 3 and half year periods in the Bible. For example Jesus' ministry was 3 and half years also. 

True, maybe. But we don't have any specific, consistent dates with respect to the ministry of Jesus. We don't even have any Biblical/secular evidence that it was 33 CE when he died, or if his ministry really was 3.5 years. We assume it was 3.5 years because of how we interpret the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. If we rely on the actual Bible accounts we don't know if it was much more than one year of ministry. And we can't even say if it was 30 CE when Jesus died.

Anyway, I'm sure you have already considered the 3.5 years of the time from when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies of Cestius Gallus up until the time that Josephus indicates that the sun and moon were darkened and a great sign was seen in heaven. There are obvious reasons for avoiding it, but there are also Biblical reasons to consider it. (And I don't think the book I linked in this post has it right.)

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore, if these "kings of the earth" are revisited in Revelation, then the symbol is no longer necessary to identify with a particular nation.

It seems that identifying the various features of Revelation (and the other prophetic books) is sometimes more if a guessing game than anything else...

[JW Insider]

19 minutes ago, Anna said:

It seems that identifying the various features of Revelation (and the other prophetic books) is sometimes more if a guessing game than anything else...

True. But we can't deny that it was written in such a way that it would intrigue people into making guesses. Daniel, too, for that matter. But sometimes I get the feeling that we are guessing now, yet the first audience did not have to guess, because it was so obvious, and they may have had John or his associates around to explain what John knew about the motivations for choosing specific words/symbols/images.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Interesting that from the first signs that the Romans were comming until the Christians fled, it took about 5 months. Maybe it was difficult to flee Jerusalem during those 5 months. 

Evidently some people did flee Jerusalem before he arrived, but if we understand Luke correctly, the Christians were not to flee until AFTER armies reached Jerusalem. So the best window would have to be while the armies were fleeing. As Josephus says, even after this Jewish victory, the Jews knew the Roman army would soon come back even stronger.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Our situation is now similar, we can not flee now because there are travel restrictions between countries. But those must be lifted so that we will be able to flee to the wilderness that Revelation 12 speaks about.

Our situation is similar in the sense that we can "flee to God's kingdom" without leaving our home. From the perspective of the political boundaries of the world, we are alien residents in this world, as if in an unmarked wilderness. Yet, we can be spiritually fed amidst the spiritual drought offered by the world. A wilderness could be both a place of punishment and a place of protection and saving provisions:

(Hosea 13:4-6) . . .But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.  5 I knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought.

Personally, I actually do believe that Revelation can be about the early protection of God's kingdom through Jesus Christ in spite of those attacks at its birth by Satan, even peremptory attacks at the time of Jesus' birth, at the time of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, his death in 33 CE, and the persecution of disciples and apostles in the first century, and their feeding by holy spirit that would result in the Greek Scriptures for us. So it would not bother me at all if the Revelation 11& 12 symbols also work for the situation in 70, as well as other parts of the first century.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So I expect there will be a short window for flight when the Corona virus levels finaly drop in this first wave

Fortunately for all of us, we don't have to look for signs that would warn us about the timing of the parousia. Jesus said it would come as a complete surprise and that none of us should worry about the times and seasons. Paul said there was no reason for anyone to write anything about the times and seasons related to the parousia. (I use parousia in the sense of the final royal manifestation that Jesus said would appear brightly like lightning, suddenly and without warning. Not in the sense of a long, silent, invisible visitation that could go on for somewhere between 100 and 200 years.)

Jesus indicated that looking for signs was a mistake. They could easily lead to someone to believe that the end won't come as a surprise like a thief, but persons might start believing that more things have to happen between now and the end. You have made this exact claim about the signs you are looking for, which makes it very easy to hold that up to the light of the scriptures and be able to dismiss it as false.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

It seems that identifying the various features of Revelation (and the other prophetic books) is sometimes more if a guessing game than anything else...

The king of the south has taken advantage of the financial crisis to provide himself an excuse to neglect road repairs. Recently I crashed headlong into a huge pothole and spent the rest of the afternoon muttering, driving around on 3 1/2 tires.

[Kosonen]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus indicated that looking for signs was a mistake

I think you have not understood correctly what Jesus meant when he rebuked the Jews for looking after signs. The problem with the Jews was that they were not convinced by the signs Jesus performed. The healings, the miraculous feedings and the resurrections. Those were signs that Jesus really was sent from God and that the Jews should have believed him. But the Jews required more signs. That was not good. So the problem was not in looking at the signs. But in that they did not believe the signs Jesus performed. And thus they required more spectacular signs.

So today, it is not a problem to look for signs, if we look for right kind of signs, signs that Jesus fortold about about, and signs in Daniel and Revelation and anywhere else in the Bible.

And it is evidently completely acceptable to be realistic about the time line of foretold events. It is evident from some of apostle Paul's statements that he had realized that the end could not come suddenly at any moment, because there were things that had to happen prior to that. He talked about a comming apostacy and the coming man of lawlessness. Also remarkable that Jesus fortold that Peter would grow old in this system and die as a martyr before Jesus' return. 

John 21:18,19 "Most truly I say to you, when you were younger, you used to clothe yourself and walk about where you wanted. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and another man will clothe you and carry you where you do not wish.”He said this to indicate by what sort of death he would glorify God. After he said this, he said to him: “Continue following me.”

But Jesus' return will come suddenly after the 1260 days. And the Bible does not tell when exactly after the 1260 days Jesus will return. So his return with his visible manifestation will come on a day we can not expect in advance. Jesus could return before the 1335th day or he could return after that day too. So I don't find anything contradictory here.

And being realistic does not prevent to be on the alert. Because we can every day be focused on being ready to be taken to heaven, if we are anointed. Because that is what the anointed should be focused on. To keep on becoming spotless and unblemished. And to purify oneself from every kind of wrong desire. The great crowd will have plenty of time during the 1000 year reign to become sin free. But the anointed must attain holiness in just a few years before Jesus return. I don't know how holy the anointed must be before they can enter the heaven? But I am sure the requirements are very high. So for the anointed there is no time to waste even if there is 3 or 4 or 6 or more years left.

And when believers in Jehovah and Jesus come to the wilderness, they should consider the safe place as the place were they will survive the end of this system of things. So the way of life there will in much be just the same as in the new system that will continue after Gog is wiped out.

The time in the wildersness will be a time to adapt to the life in the new world under Christ's rule. I believe that is the whole point of the simbolic woman's flight to the wilderness, to adapt oneself practically for life after Gog is wiped out.

I have also come to believe that the comming system with the mark of the beast serves exactly the same purpose. Revelation 13 says that nobody will be able to buy or sell with out it. And Revelation tells us not in any circumstances take that mark of the beast.

So, that will force believers in Jehovah to stop shopping things. That will force believers in God to begin to cultivate one's own food. That will be very handy, to have made that adaptation for the new world before Armageddon.  

 

[Anna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But sometimes I get the feeling that we are guessing now, yet the first audience did not have to guess, because it was so obvious, and they may have had John or his associates around to explain what John knew about the motivations for choosing specific words/symbols/images.

Interesting concept! I suppose it could be comparable to us using terminology of the 21st century, and someone in the 1st century trying to understand it. "Zoom meetings" could be one, and there are a thousand of others. I could just see Peter saying "He what?? Zoomed in on his "cell phone"?? 

[Witness]

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But the Jews required more signs. That was not good.

 

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So the problem was not in looking at the signs. But in that they did not believe the signs Jesus performed. And thus they required more spectacular signs.

 

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But Jesus' return will come suddenly after the 1260 days.

The signs are spiritual, not literal. SATAN'S signs are literal.  Your desire to see literal fulfillment is no different than the Pharisees.   

This is what the Lord, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb, says:

I am YHVH, who made everything;
who stretched out the heavens by Myself;
who alone spread out the earth;
25 who destroys the omens of the false prophets
and makes fools of diviners;
who confounds the wise
and makes their knowledge foolishness;
26 who confirms the message of His servant
and fulfills the counsel of His messengers;
who says to Jerusalem, “She will be inhabited,”
and to the cities of Judah, “They will be rebuilt,”
and I will restore her ruins   Isa 44:24-26

"An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." Then he left them and went away."  Matt 16:4

I wish you could understand this. 

 

[Arauna]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:51 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

GB understanding of political moves in Russia didn't be of much use and "they didn't escape on time" from Russia

We live in a world where brothers cannot go to another country and illegally immigrate unless you are classified a migrant from a 3rd world or accepted country. So the GB unselfishly remained in Russia to support the brothers, who could not flee , as long as possible.

So much for those saying the GB just cares about assets.  Here they clearly risked assets to be able to support brothers....

[Arauna]

On 4/6/2020 at 1:03 AM, paulus said:

But it is sad that this site which I believe was set up to provide encouragement and support to Brothers and sisters around the world tolerates these idiots and there attempts to lead astray fellow witnesses. Sorry but unfortunately I have strong fellings on this matter, hence the language.

My dear brother, I understand where you are coming from........ I myself hate the really subtle deceit on this open public forum (you can join the closed section where you are approved to join)....... and have spoken out myself  in very strong terms.  However, I think it is a good place to learn self-control in speech and not use derogatory names.  We must develop spirit of christ.

Some people here learn absolutely nothing from others. They are here for one purpose only........ to be subversive.  I have learnt to just ignore the most outrageous comments and direct attacks against my logic and even my personal  sanity....

I definitely do not do it perfectly but I am getting a little better at it! 

You will notice here on this forum, what I call OCD.  A syndrome of compulsive, repetitious, unremitting hate for anything to do with the GB or JWs. 

 

Despite this: under this subject above there has been one or two very interesting comments such as the historical facts around 66CE.  Good job by the contributor..... I may also add that the zealots were giving Rome an extremely  hard time due to guerilla warfare /attacks.  Rome left Palestine at this time.... (Rome started to call the area Palestine), because they needed their soldiers in other areas. Vespasian left for Rome (if I remember correctly). There were wars to determine the next Ceasar and Vespasian came out tops.  His son Titus returned to Jerusalem in 7O CE when the rule in Rome was secured.  ROME really wanted to get rid of the zealots called sicarii....... assassins and a large number of them were controlling Jerusalem.  Titus himself was almost killed upon his return on his way to Jerusalem by such an ambush.  The battle in 70 CE was ferocious...... from wall to wall and street to street.  The tree barricade put up later around the city stopped people from getting out of Jerusalem with surprise attacks on the Roman's.  No wonder the Roman's were so harsh when the battle came to an end and the temple was burnt.  After this the name jehovah was also banned from use. 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

We live in a world where brothers cannot go to another country and illegally immigrate unless you are classified a migrant from a 3rd world or accepted country. So the GB unselfishly remained in Russia to support the brothers, who could not flee , as long as possible.

So much for those saying the GB just cares about assets.  Here they clearly risked assets to be able to support brothers....

According to news some JW's from Russia asking for asylum in Finland, Norway ...

About 175,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are estimated to reside in the Russian Federation. Since the 2017 ban, it is thought that about 5,000 or so have left the country. - https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/close_to_90_of_russian_jehovahs_witnesses_applicants_refused_asylum_in_finland/10897023

“We look at every application case by case,” she said. “At the moment, the situation does not seem to be that every Jehovah’s Witness is under the threat of persecution, but we follow the situation closely. If everyone was being persecuted, then everyone would be granted asylum.” - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/world/europe/putin-trump-russia-jehovahs-witness.html

[Kosonen]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I myself hate the really subtle deceit on this open public forum

I hope you have not misunderstood me, if you had me in mind. Because I am really not here to deceive. Instead I am here to build your faith and love to God, Christ and God's word and if possible prepare you to escape to the wilderness the Revelation 12 speaks about. But many christians will unfortunately choose to stay and will get it very difficult. I just wish you could escape those hardships.