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Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

In other words, you are saying that Ray Franz is a son of destruction

Actually, that is what you are saying. The observation I made is posted above, conveniently quoted in full, by yourself.

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22 hours ago, Witness said:

Which things?  It's not the question of who's life I change, but who are changed by truth in scripture.  

That's exactly my point to what I said before. So what of it? What are you contributing to the preachin work when there is legitimate obstacles like this? I don't know how old you are, but times are different now verses the past.

The peeps at school are teaching this stuff now and the state I live in has passed a Law that even puts Christians to the test.

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I'll go back to your original comment:

22 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

I wouldnt say either choice was inspired.

But as a parrallel situation, yes this is an excellent comparison

Will you explain to me why you believe the two, both Judas and Ray Franz,  are an "excellent comparison"?  How are they similar?  You really are beating around the bush. 

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1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

That's exactly my point to what I said before. So what of it? What are you contributing to the preachin work when there is legitimate obstacles like this? I don't know how old you are, but times are different now verses the past.

The peeps at school are teaching this stuff now and the state I live in has passed a Law that even puts Christians to the test.

 It is true that we see the results of Satan’s demonic accomplishments throughout the world. I have three sons that were “raised” in the organization, so I am aware of the trials of which you also are enduring.   However, I am old enough to have experienced spiritual obstacles in a belief held for over 30 years, that put my faith in God to the test.  Does the sign that an organization of people are “preaching”, show they are righteous by doing so?  A preaching work should be based on truth from Christ.  What if you thought you were making a difference by “preaching” information from a Watchtower magazine, only to find out that the topic of choice had to be changed – by your leaders – because their teachings, their prophetic views, were found to be wrong?  In the beginning, you told people it was truth, but it later was revealed that it wasn’t. How did you make a spiritual difference in the life of an individual by presenting a falsehood at their door?

The “good news” has been preached since Christ walked the earth.  People now have full access to Bibles, and according to their heart condition, can be led to the living water of truth. John 7:38  Christ and the apostles preached to God’s “nation”.  Matt 4:23; 3:2; Acts 10:34,35; 15:14; 13:47

It is the same with the end time preaching work that Jesus taught us to look for, narrowing it down to spiritual “Israel”.  You do know they are the anointed ones in the organization, I would guess – I would hope. Rev 7:4  Because JWs reside with them, the message and its warning, includes all of them.  Rev 18:4-8

Where does God make His home?  John 14:23   What is His dwelling? 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 3:17 Who comprise the symbolic “inhabited earth”?  Matt 13:23   God has a homeland in the hearts of the anointed ones. They are His field, His building, His “kings of the earth”, that must be cleansed of all lies and idolatry to be found worthy to serve Him, Christ and all mankind in the Kingdom. 1 Cor 3:9-11; Rev 1:4,6

“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”  Eph 2:20-22

Notice who receives the message:

“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”  Matt 24:14

God is specifically sending the message to His homeland, His people, “Israel”. 

“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:23

Today we have a spiritual “Israel”. Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10  From them, the faithful will be found worthy to reign with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Rev 5:9,10  If you go back and read Matt 10:16-23, it describes the spiritual persecution that the faithful experience at the hands of their own “Jewish” leaders.  Are JWs brought before the “synogogues”?  No, but anointed and all who reject the very lies that you may have brought as truth to the door, are verbally “flogged”, and put to “death” – disfellowshipped.

When Jesus said, “go to the lost sheep of Israel”, the last symbolic “two witnesses” send their message to them – the anointed ones, the living stones of the Temple.  Rev 11:1-3; 1 Pet 4:5,9.  They are spiritually “killed” for rejecting the “mark”/identity of the organization.  Rev 11:7; 13:14-16

Why does this occur?  Because Satan demands to “sift” all the anointed since Christ, as “wheat”; just as he did by tempting Christ.  Luke 22:31; Luke 4:1-13  Will they follow only Christ, their Head, or men who say they are their head? Gen 3:15,16; Eph 5:25-27,32; Matt 24:48-51  He made the bait tailored to the minds of anointed who desire to “preach” truth; but as Satan so deftly can accomplish, this truth is laced with lies.   2 Thess 2:9-10; Rev 13:1,2,6-8; Rev 16:13-16

The “good news” is that “Israel” – “Jacob” – has been redeemed from their sins, if they leave/”flee” falsehoods and confusion, the meaning of “Babylon”.  Isa 48:20; Jer 50:28; Rev 18:4-8; 12:10; 15:2

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

Will you explain to me why you believe the two, both Judas and Ray Franz,  are an "excellent comparison"?

No I cannot do that. I will not add or take away from the original post. There is no need, as the subject has been presented clearly for comparison.

All you need to do is look at the two, side by side, as presented in the original topic, for yourself.

Make your own comparisons as I have done. I am not going to try and influence your opinion any further with my personal estimation of the matter other than to say that they are indeed, an excellent comparison.

Come to your own conclusions.

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@Witness Amigo, you are taking some huge leaps in the wrong direction. Not a whole lot of what you said addressed my main comment.

So what do us JWs have to do with people using and preaching that the Bible agrees with and or accepts homosexuality? Ever since the Christian Bakery incident we had people come out from the wood works. These same preachers preach that both Jehovah and Jesus were cool with the whole thing, even rinse and twist Jehovah's dealings with the people of Sodom and Gamorah.

On the other side, you have Transgender and support of it, who are in the same boat. And what is being taught by these people are now in the schools that are making parents uneasy. Us JWs know that Evolution isn't right and that it was Jehovah God that created everything, in the same sense as that example aside from Evolution you have people teaching that a boy can be a girl and a girl can be a boy. A grown man can be identified as a 7 year old girl, a dog, or a toaster.

You don't have to agree with my faith, dunno if you are or formerly a witness, but seriously, you should be aware of this stuff going on. I'm not even outside of school yet and this stuff is everywhere. To make matters worse, my state, this link speaks for itself

http://www.njfamily.com/Gender-Neutral-Birth-Certificates-Are-Coming-to-NJ/

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5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

I will not add or take away from the original post.

Not sure which post is the original; yours,  mine, or the first post on this topic.  

5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Come to your own conclusions.

I certainly have. 

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2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness Amigo, you are taking some huge leaps in the wrong direction. Not a whole lot of what you said addressed my main comment.

So what do us JWs have to do with people using and preaching that the Bible agrees with and or accepts homosexuality? Ever since the Christian Bakery incident we had people come out from the wood works. These same preachers preach that both Jehovah and Jesus were cool with the whole thing, even rinse and twist Jehovah's dealings with the people of Sodom and Gamorah.

On the other side, you have Transgender and support of it, who are in the same boat. And what is being taught by these people are now in the schools that are making parents uneasy. Us JWs know that Evolution isn't right and that it was Jehovah God that created everything, in the same sense as that example aside from Evolution you have people teaching that a boy can be a girl and a girl can be a boy. A grown man can be identified as a 7 year old girl, a dog, or a toaster.

You don't have to agree with my faith, dunno if you are or formerly a witness, but seriously, you should be aware of this stuff going on. I'm not even outside of school yet and this stuff is everywhere. To make matters worse, my state, this link speaks for itself

http://www.njfamily.com/Gender-Neutral-Birth-Certificates-Are-Coming-to-NJ/

Thanks.  It is true, I am more keenly aware of what is going on in the Watchtower than what happens in the outside world.  The Kingdom will not be "born" from the horrible circumstances within the world that you see, but through the faithful obedience of Christ's anointed ones to him.    Luke 17:20,21; 1 Thess 5:3; Rev 12:1-4

There are more horrid things that we cannot see, which must be perceived spiritually, and that are far more serious than what's happening in the world.  Eph 6:10-13

 

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    • By The Librarian
      Special Notice: This is a controversial page. The views expressed by Raymond Franz are his alone and do not represent the views of this website or it's readers. It is included here for historical and archival reasons in holding with the truth of the events of the early 1980's - The Librarian
      Raymond Victor Franz (May 8, 1922 – June 2, 2010) was a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses from 20 October 1971 until 22 May 1980,[1][2] and served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965 until 1980. Franz claimed the request for his resignation and his subsequent disfellowshipping resulted from allegations of his apostasy from the faith.[3] Franz wrote two books that related his personal experiences with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and his views on Jehovah's Witnesses teachings.
      He was the principal author of the book Aid to Bible Understanding which was replaced in 1988 by the Insight on the Scriptures


      Watch Tower career
      Franz was born in 1922. His uncle, Frederick Franz, was influential in the religion's development, practices and doctrines.[4] His father associated with the Bible Student movement (from which Jehovah's Witnesses developed) and was baptized in 1913. Raymond joined the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1938, and became a baptized member in 1939.[5]

      In 1944 Franz graduated from Gilead, the religion's school for training missionaries,[6] and temporarily served the organization as a traveling representative in the continental U.S. until receiving a missionary assignment to Puerto Rico in 1946. Franz became a representative of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the Caribbean, traveling to the Virgin Islands and the Dominican Republic, at least until 1957 when Jehovah's Witnesses were banned in the Dominican Republic by dictator Rafael Trujillo.[7] At the age of 37 Franz married his wife, Cynthia, who joined him on missionary work. Both returned to the Dominican Republic in 1961 to evangelize for four more years before taking up work at Watch Tower headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.[8]

      Franz began working in the organization's writing department and was assigned to collaboratively write Aid to Bible Understanding, the first religious encyclopedia published by Jehovah's Witnesses. On 20 October 1971 he was appointed as a member of the Governing Body.[9] In his personal memoir Franz said that at the end of 1979 he reached a personal crossroad:
       

      Frustrated by what he viewed as the Governing Body's dogmatism and overemphasis on traditional views rather than reliance on the Bible in reaching doctrinal decisions, Franz and his wife decided in late 1979 they would leave the international headquarters.[11]
       

      TIME magazine February 22, 1982
      Expulsion
      In March 1980 Franz and his wife took leave of absence from the world headquarters for health reasons and moved to Alabama, where he took up laboring work on a property owned by a fellow Witness. The following month a committee of the Governing Body raised concerns over the spreading of "wrong teachings" emanating from headquarters staff and began questioning headquarters staff on their beliefs. Staff were also questioned about comments Franz had made that may have contradicted Watch Tower doctrine.[12][13] The 15 March 1980 issue of The Watchtower issued a statement of regret that its assertions of probability of Armageddon arriving before 1975 had "apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of expectation already initiated."[14] It told disappointed Jehovah's Witnesses, "including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centred on that date" to "concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint".[15] This statement, which placed blame for the disappointment about 1975 on Raymond Franz and his writing committee, precipitated a purge of that committee and eventual disfellowshipping of its sometime Chairman.[16] On May 8 1980 Franz was told that he had been implicated as an apostate.[17] He was called back to Brooklyn on May 20 for two days of questioning[18] by the Chairman's Committee. Franz claimed the discussion concerned allegations that some Witnesses were meeting privately to discuss various teachings of the Watch Tower Society that may have constituted apostasy.

      On 21 May 1980 Franz was called to a Governing Body session, questioned for three hours about his Bible viewpoints and commitment to Watch Tower doctrines[2][19] and agreed to a request to resign from the Governing Body and headquarters staff. Franz refused the Watch Tower Society's offer of a monthly stipend as a member of the "Infirm Special Pioneers".[20] The Governing Body investigation resulted in the disfellowshipping of several other headquarters staff.[21][22][23]

      On 1 September 1980 the Governing Body distributed a letter to all Circuit and District overseers stating that apostates need not be promoting doctrines to be disfellowshipped. The letter stated that individuals who persisted in "believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof" were also apostatizing and therefore warranted "appropriate judicial action".[18][24]

      On 18 March 1981 Franz's employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from Jehovah's Witnesses. A Watchtower article on 15 September 1981 announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the religion were to be treated by Witnesses as a disfellowshipped wrongdoer.[25] Franz, who continued to socialize with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on 25 November and disfellowshiped for disobeying the edict.[2][26][27] Determined to set the record straight, not only with respect to his having been disfellowshiped, but with respect to larger doctrinal issues, in 1982 he sent Heather and Gary Botting proofs of his upcoming book Crisis of Conscience so that they could chronicle the more widespread discord within the Watch Tower Society.[28] They wrote regarding Franz's contribution to their expose on the Witnesses that his recommendations "undoubtedly strengthened the veracity of the text; we were impressed by his insistence on both fairness and frankness with respect to representing the view of the Watch Tower Society."[29] Following his disfellowshiping, Franz published two books—Crisis of Conscience (1983) and In Search of Christian Freedom (1991)—presenting detailed accounts of his experiences as a Jehovah's Witness, a Governing Body member, and his experiences throughout various levels of the organization.

      Franz was ultimately disfellowshipped for having dinner with his employer, a disassociated brother. See also this video
      Our Kingdom Service, August 1980 announced when he left the GB and Bethel.
      Death
      On 30 May 2010, at age 88, Franz fell and suffered a brain hemorrhage.[30] He died on 2 June 2010.[30]

      References
      "Announcements", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, page 2, "This is a notification that Raymond Victor Franz is no longer a member of the Governing Body and of the Brooklyn Bethel family as of May 22, 1980." "Witness Under Prosecution", Richard H. Ostling, Anne Constable, Time Magazine, February 22, 1982. "Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", by John Dart, Los Angeles Times, August 27, 1987. Part 1."Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", part 2. Rogerson 1969, p. 66 Franz 2002, p. 11 "Gilead’s 61st Graduation a Spiritual Treat", The Watchtower, November 1, 1976, page 671. Franz 2002, p. 16 Franz 2002, pp. 19, 20 Franz 2002, p. 31 Franz 2002, p. 273 Franz 2002, p. 274,275 Penton 1997, pp. 119–121 Franz 2002, p. 298,299 p. 17 pp. 17-18 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 48-49, 158-163 Franz 2002, pp. 312, 313 Beverley 1986, p. 71 Franz 2002, p. 331 Franz 2002, p. 332 Penton 1997, p. 121 Botting & Botting 1984, p. 161 "Branch Letter", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, "We are saddened to report at this time that five members of the Bethel family, and a few others in the New York city area have recently been disfellowshiped. There has been some apostasy against the organization and the promoting of sectarian divisions in some of the congregations of God’s people. (Titus 3:9-11) Living as we are in times difficult to deal with, it should not be surprising that such things occur. The first-century congregation also experienced deviations as we well know from our reading of the Holy Scriptures.—1 Tim. 1:20; 4:1; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 1 Cor. 15:12, 13; Acts 20:29, 30." Protecting the Flock, Watch Tower Society letter to district and circuit overseers, September 1, 1980, part 1. Protecting the Flock, Part 2. "Disfellowshiping — How to View It", The Watchtower, September 15, 1981, page 23, "One who has been a true Christian might renounce the way of the truth, stating that he no longer considers himself to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or wants to be known as one. When this rare event occurs, the person is renouncing his standing as a Christian, deliberately disassociating himself from the congregation ... Persons who make themselves 'not of our sort' by deliberately rejecting the faith and beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses should appropriately be viewed and treated as are those who have been disfellowshiped for wrongdoing." Franz 2002, pp. 357–369 "Expelled Witnesses Claim Group is Ingrown", Miami News, March 19, 1983. the Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 161-63 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses,p. xxiii "Obituary". Legacy.com. Bibliography
      Beverley, James A. (1986). Crisis of Allegiance. Burlington, Ontario: Welch Publishing Company. ISBN 0-920413-37-4. Botting, Heather; Botting, Gary (1984). The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses. University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-6545-7. Franz, Raymond (2002). Crisis of Conscience. Commentary Press. ISBN 0-914675-23-0. Penton, M. J. (1997). Apocalypse Delayed (2nd ed.). University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-7973-3. Rogerson, Alan (1969). Millions Now Living Will Never Die: A Study of Jehovah's Witnesses. Constable & Co, London. ISBN 0-0945-5940-6. External Links
      Richard N. Ostling (February 22, 1982), "Religion: Witness Under Prosecution", Time magazine. Raymond Franz at Find a Grave  
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