Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?

[Srecko Sostar]

45 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Oh boy. 1975 Again?

In 1941 the WT organization also fueled feelings about Armageddon at the time, even within that same year.

Cartons of Children that had been deposited in The Arena were now opened, and Judge Rutherford instructed the children how to come and each get a copy thereof, those in the rear half of The Arena marching in two columns out through a side exit, and those in the front half of The Arena marching up over the platform and out through a rear exit. As the march began, the orchestra (minus all its children instrumentalists) struck up and rendered songs, "Children of the Heavenly King," "The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon," and "Who Is on the Lord's Side'" while the vast audience sang. Never was there a more moving Sight in these "last days". Many, including strong men, wept at the demonstration. Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided Instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon. What a gift I and to so many! The manner of releasing the new book Children was an outnght surprise to all, but the almighty hand of the All-wise One, Jehovah, was in it, and the maneuver was most blessed indeed. Thereafter Children, the author's edition, was disposed of to adult conventioners, on a contribution.    WT September 15 Page 288

[Equivocation]

@Dmitar Thanks I'll look into it. But yeah, the peddling for false stories and information tends to be frustrating and the people behind it are relentless. SM pointed out it has even gotten to the point that people looking in are now calling out some lies former Jehovah's Witnesses are pushing. One thing I remember was a while back one of Jehovah's Witnesses made a comment about a verse being omitted, Acts 8:37 and an angry mob went after him. He knew it was a waste of time to deal with people like this so he bailed, and once he left, they mocked and slandered him. Someone who was a former member made a video about the verse and continued the attack. It did lure in some JWs and others to correct the guy who made the video, but they were drowned out by those who are not only ignorant, but relentless in their attacks.

You really can't find peace with these people, nor can you get them to see what they are pushing are lies. The sad thing about it, there are indeed some who are not hate driven, but they are also drowned out too.

[Equivocation]

@Srecko Sostar Dude, you effectively lost the plot here, which can be seen from the comments you made. After what was said, in full detail, anything you say is 100% nullified going forward. It would be best for you to return to Cedars at this point.

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

That is exactly what Revelation 19 says - 

 

Rev 19:19 – “Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against his army.”

“John: To the seven churches in Asia. Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,  and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by his blood”

Is Jesus ruler over the “kings”/leaders of the nations as well as his own "kings"?  If that is the case, then why is there a need for the Wt to declare that Jesus is head over only the Watchtower, and only rules over its leaders? 

The kings of the earth are spoken of in Rev 5:9,10

“And they sang a new song:

You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slaughtered,
and you purchased people
for God by your blood
from every tribe and language
and people and nation.

You made them a kingdom
and priests to our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

The battle between the “kings of the earth” is between those faithful to Jesus, and those once under covenant with him but who have since become his enemies. (Rev 19:19; 12:7)  Of course, we know that in “heaven”, the nations “kings”/rulers will not be found, but only Christ’s “called, chosen and faithful” priests/kings who successfully “rode” with him bearing truth during Armageddon, and rule with him in Zion. (Rev 17:14)

“I did not see a temple in it, because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. ²³ The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates it, and its lamp is the Lamb. ²⁴ The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.”  Rev 21:22-24

Jesus is King of kings (Rev 19:16), but he is not king over the national leaders of the world. They are not under covenant with him. (Jer 31:31; Luke 22:20)  His kings were chosen when anointed, but that doesn’t mean they all remain faithful to his truths. (Deut 29:18; Heb 12:15; 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:11; 17:1; Rev 13:11,12)  In the last days, the anointed remnant, the remaining “kings of the earth” are deceived by the “teachings of demons”. Matt 24:24,25; 1 Tim 4:1; Luke 22:31; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10

“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

So, which “kings” do you think Jesus is talking about that are being deceived by a false prophet? The nation's leaders who could very well be atheist?  It is established by Rev 1:5 that the kings of the earth are under the rulership of Jesus Christ.  Those with them, are all JWs from around the world -  found in the organization.  These kings were gathered over the years into one ”camp”, the Wt. (Rev 20:7-9)  In there, they are presented with teachings that they must discern as either truth or lies (Joel 3:14); making  the choice to either ride with Christ and his Truth, (Matt 25:1,2,6-10) or remain under the influence of “demonic expressions”, spoken by the enemies of Christ. This describes the division that is now occurring, the choice to follow Jesus Christ and his word, or to follow the “empty philosophy” of men – “kings” who have fallen from God’s grace. (1 Cor 11:19)

“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”  Eph 6:12,13

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” 2 Cor 11:13-15

“I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.” Rev 2:2

“And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Rev 6:15-17

Jesus would not apply the term “kings of the earth” to world leaders that are not under covenant with him, nor ever have been; and then also apply that term to his anointed under covenant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JW Insider - I couldn't really see what was said due to the warzone of yet another 1975 debate, I think SM said you had experience that day or something to that effect, how was it back then?

Oh no! I promised myself I wouldn't respond to any of this 1975 stuff unless someone asked me a direct question, either on "private messaging" or directly in the forum. We've beaten this subject to death under other topic headings.

When you ask, "how was it back then?" I can naturally only speak to my own experience and those near me at the time. Many people have already made the point that there was more speculation in some regions than in others. I was baptized in 1967 but was only 10 years old, and I know that I was personally influenced by all the talk, and the books about 1975 that had just been published. I started auxiliary pioneering every summer since 1967, and finally quit high school when I was still 15, to start regular pioneering in 1973, and hoped to go to Bethel in 1975. I wasn't old enough until the beginning of 1976. 

We were in a region that also had a District Overseer who pushed the "Stay Alive 'til 75!" idea, although he used different words. We had two different circuit overseers during that time, and I've spoken to one several times since then (Kent Carras) over the years. He had the most influence on me quitting school and going to Bethel. My mother was a great believer in the 1975-era speculation. My father was actually against all of it, and it even got him in a bit of trouble with the District Overseer, a Circuit Overseer and one of the elders who worked for him. It was on his side of the family that my great-grandfather and grandfather and grandmother had listened to the same type of speculation over 1925. It was my father who told me that the same phrase had been used: "Stay Alive Until 1925!" He recognized it for what it was, and always tamped it down with Jesus' words about no one knowing the day or hour. (That's actually what got him in trouble with the the District Overseer.)

So I was very much in the middle of the speculation, and was too young and enthusiastic about the Watchtower Society's "likely" prediction that I might not have time in this system to graduate high school, and that it would be even less likely that I could complete a degree in college. And then there was the direct and absolute prediction in the Watchtower publications that I would never be able to take advantage of a college degree in this system. (My father was the "presiding overseer" but he taught at the local university, and ran the electronics labs there. He hired several Witnesses and two other elders, so he never got the flack about education that some Witnesses got in those days. He also had a two-year electronics trade school program in mind for me.) 

There were very few in my area who weren't pretty well versed in all the speculation. They could quote the Watchtower's material, and only a few people were actually speculating that Armageddon had to happen by 1975. This was their own speculation, not the Watchtower's. My mother was a 1974 person, because it still had to be a surprise. That was also her own speculation, of course. But our Circuit Overseer (Carras) understood that it was not about the system ending in 1975, per se, but it was about what the "1970's" will bring. He was able to show how the Watchtower was actually only predicting that it "could" happen by 1975, but that the system COULD go on as late as 1977 or even 1978. In other words, it could happen by 1975, but it will happen before the end of the 1970's. Curiously, all that talk about the 1970's went away by the end of 1975, or even by 1974, and the new "date" was soon pushed out to as late as the year 2000, for when this system will  have already ended.

When I got to Bethel in 1976, I was in the Art Department, but given some research assignments that eventually led to working for Brother Bert Schroeder starting in 1977 (until 1982). This kept me in the Bethel Library (and Gilead Library) almost daily and I began working with several of the other members of the Writing Department. My current understanding of the 1975 issues is very much influenced by what I learned from them (including Brother Swingle, Schroeder, Chitty, Rusk, and 3 members of the "Aid Book" team). Although I hardly said more than just "hello" to Raymond Franz in those years, I did speak to F.W.Franz for several hours of taped interviews in 1978 (mostly about organizational history after 1925). After reading what R.Franz said about the 1975 issue in "Crisis of Conscience" I'd say that it is probably the most accurate recounting of the 1975 situation.  I don't think anyone who was at Bethel during those years would find any inaccuracy in what he said.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

Technically, when it comes to these things some people (as seen here) bring up the topic of 1975 for one sole reason: to brand Jehovah's Witnesses as 'False Prophets' by their own definition, ignoring what is meant by the word 'prophet' and what was intended by WBTS publications, even during those days.

However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a “prophet” to warn them. This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women.  It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.

Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?  (Wt 4/1/1972 p. 197)

Have you done that lately?  They are inviting you to go back the birth of the organization and "review the record".  

Here is your guideline to follow, when researching the record  - Insight Book 2, p. 694-698:

The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (De 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (De 13:1-4). The last requirement was probably the most vital and decisive, for an individual might hypocritically use God’s name, and by coincidence, his prediction might see fulfillment. But the true prophet was not solely or even primarily a prognosticator, as has been shown. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God’s mind on matters. (Isa 1:10-20; Mic 6:1-12) Hence, it was not necessary to wait perhaps for years or generations to determine whether the prophet was true or false by fulfillment of a prediction. If his message contradicted God’s revealed will and standards, he was false.

The true prophet never foretold simply to satisfy human curiosity. Every prediction related to God’s will, purpose, standards, or judgment. (1Ki 11:29-39; Isa 7:3-9) Often the future events foretold were the consequence of existing conditions; as the people sowed, so they would reap. The false prophets lulled the people and their leaders with soothing assurances that, despite their unrighteous course, God was still with them to protect and prosper them. (Jer 23:16-20; 28:1-14; Eze 13:1-16; compare Lu 6:26.) They imitated the true prophets, employing symbolic language and actions. (1Ki 22:11; Jer 28:10-14)

 

 

[Dmitar]

Seriously, I have to ask everyone here, does anyone get the book of revelation? I understand, everyone has an interpretation, but my goodness, I have to agree with @TrueTomHarley's last post, sometimes you have to turn off people's nonsense.

Lets' start with a simple one. Who, is Gog and Magog? Now in the O.T. it is specific.

AMP Ezek 38:2

2 Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, of Meshech, and of Tubal, and prophesy against him,

In the book of Revelation, it is also specific. There are elements. 

[Srecko Sostar]

47 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

@Srecko Sostar Dude, you effectively lost the plot here, which can be seen from the comments you made. After what was said, in full detail, anything you say is 100% nullified going forward. It would be best for you to return to Cedars at this point.

You received confirmation from a third party that the WT organization had periodic collective hysteria about the end of the world.
These are 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975, until the end of the 20th century. Dude  

[JW Insider]

51 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, of Meshech, and of Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Christendom's commentaries have often promoted a tradition that Gog/Magog refers in modern times to Russia/USSR. I grabbed the above map from somewhere on Wikipedia and saved it in a Microsoft Notebook. Probably from an article on the Seleucid Empire. So it's meant to represent a time about half-way between Ezekiel and Revelation.

Historical maps of the Russian Empire can be found here:

https://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1100/index.html

Good historical maps here include the overlapping Scythian Empire:

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/scythian_empire_map.htm

[Equivocation]

20 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You received confirmation from a third party that the WT organization had periodic collective hysteria about the end of the world.
These are 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975, until the end of the 20th century. Dude  

Nullified, you lost the plot, once again. With all due respect, Srecko, if I were you, I'd reflect. What I do not understand is why such a man like yourself chooses to remain in a Stasis like paradox state of subtle insanity (mental time loop). And no, there were people who were alive that day and witnesses the events. We can't leave them out, even former members who found out the truth later on.

Seeing you down voted, it seems you've taken that to heart. You never change. You never move on.

@Witness Respectfully, Madam, I do not think you understood what was said about Prophets and False Prophets. I recommend looking into what a legitimate Prophet and a False Prophet is and or represent. Doing so, would help you better understand. So, what I said is true, you are among those who have their own definition for these terms.

@JW Insider Thanks, it is good to read from one's experience.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Seeing you down voted, it seems you've taken that to heart.

Of course, with all/full right for such reaction. 

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

Thanks I'll look into it. But yeah, the peddling for false stories and information tends to be frustrating and the people behind it are relentless.

*** w84 9/1 p. 20 Would You Spread a Rumor? ***
For example, Procter & Gamble, a large firm supplying household products in the United States, was recently victimized by a rumor that it promoted Satanism and that its trademark was really a demon symbol. Another widespread rumor had it that a well-known chain of fast-food stores was putting worms in its hamburgers! Some years ago it was widely believed that a member of the singing group the Beatles had died in an auto accident and had been replaced by a double. Even the Watchtower Society’s publications have been the subject of rumors—for example, that one of the artists had secretly been introducing pictures of demons into the illustrations, was subsequently found out and disfellowshiped

You might consider the infiltrators to cause harm with this illustration. In ancient times, they were considered spies.

That's why the great apostasy that was started by Raymond Franz obligated the Watchtower to purge itself. This is why I refused to join the Bethel Family at that time. There were too many apostates that can out in the late 70s and 80s from Bethel for my spirituality. I'm glad I didn't.