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Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

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21 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

But Judas as not predestined to be the betrayer - he chose to be at some point. It would be unloving of Jehovah to predestine someone for destruction. Jehovah gave us all freedom of choice.

This sort of subject, question on predestination, free choice and God's capacity to see future is problematic to understand, for me at least :)))

Some quotes from WT publications stated, how God can see your future and all in your personal life, but he  not using his capacity, power to do that, how he respects your individuality and privacy, so he has no need to deal with you in such way. But on other hand he will use this method if he have reason for that. All examples about idea and practice, when God decide to brake your  privacy, ant to used this kind of going into your free will, future, state of heart and mind, we have in few bible reports, Judas is one example.

If God see your bad intentions, and how you will never, but never, for sure never change your attitude as in Judas case, then NO ONE can give any help to such person. If God saw how Judas alone as person can not change his personality, how Jesus can not help him to change, how no one of his family, friends can do nothing about it, than all is in vain even for Judas alone and all his intentions and tries, because God Himself saw and PREDICT how such person will be born and done this to Jesus. And how that will not be done by some brother from Egypt or China but ONLY from one of 12. And in one of 12 only Judas will be that person. God saw how Judas, and no one else but Judas will do this. And by that, God "choose" Judas for doing this act. Did God saw Judas future before Adam and Eve creation?? Or after? Or before Abraham? Or before John Baptist? This would be Speculative conversations and theories !!!!! coming to NO WHERE!

If He saw Judas failure future,  did he decide how he can not help him because, as verses said, Judas heart was bad?? So, how many hearts here on this forum are bad in that way, that god can not do nothing about that?? 

JW believe how life is not predestined. Only believes how God can see your future, and future of all mankind.  But with subject of "prophesies" you must to enter in sphere of predestination.

Is "prophecy" merely God's looking in future events that will be? If it is, then life is predestined in some way, because future is already past event, for God at least who saw your past, present and future before you came in existence. And if He decide not to intervene,  people can not do nothing else but just the things He saw they/you are doing.

If "prophecy" is something what will be done by somebody in the future, than you are again in sphere of predestination because somebody will and must fulfill particular "prophecy" because God already saw particular event.

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

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He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

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3 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

He can foresee in detail if he chooses to like in the case of Cyrus - even before he was born.   But he is not the cause of the outcome.  It is only that he can see it.  Free will is the cause of the outcome. In the case of Esau he also saw the different genes and bent of the person.

Ok, but one little detail - God also has free will to chose, and by that to cause or not to cause outcome of something. And we will never know what was happened. :)  

Or, we can talk about question; Does God has free will? Or He acting in a way He MUST to act, because He is God and God acting as God. When people say God is love and good, than they mean, He can't be unrighteous, or bad. So, by that, He has not free will to act in a different way but only in one way - always showing justice, mercy, love ....even in a situation when he killing humans. Interesting,    

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I think when it comes to God, there are naturally many things we cannot, and NEVER will, comprehend about him. Like the the concept of him having no beginning. Everything he wants us to know about him, he has revealed in the Bible. And of course as Melinda mentioned, we know about his qualities through ourselves, because we were created in his image. When it comes to free will, it is a gift from God, and he never has taken that away from any of his intelligent creatures. It makes sense that Jehovah can 'predict' what a person will do, because even we can correctly predict what someone will do. Jehovah can do that so much better because he can read hearts. We can only go by what we see, hear and past experience.

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Just a thought about “image”.  Adam and Eve were “made in the image of God”  Did they retain that image after they sinned?  Or did they adopt another “image”, one as the result of sin?

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."     Gen 1:26,27,31

 

It ceased being very good when Adam and Eve sinned.

And he said to the man, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'Do not eat from it': The ground is cursed because of you. You will eat from it by means of painful labor all the days of your life.   Gen 3:17

He called them “mankind” when they were created, when they possessed the Spirit of God.    Gen 5:1,2  Once they sinned, God’s Spirit left them according to their choice and they were no longer considered Sons of God who would live eternally, but suffered decay and death.  Rom 8:20,21

We choose the “image” we want to portray.  Either Satan and lies, which lead to destruction, or only God and Christ through his teachings bringing eternal life.  We can’t be slaves to both and expect Jesus to grant us salvation. Rom 6:16   The image of God is pure, perfect, blameless.  Jesus set the example for us; we are to follow closely in his footsteps to achieve that image of God. 2 Cor 4:4; Col 3:10; Rom 13:14   Any other "image" that we may follow, and that touts the source of salvation would not be pure, perfect, and blameless.  

 

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@Srecko Sostar Frida, God doesn't need to "act" as God, he is God. Él es mi padre y tu padre.

God doesn't change. God is love, Just, in Order, etc. When he does something there is reason behind it, when he says something, it will happend and it will be done.

God isn't unrigehotus. If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

God is a real person, and anyone can speak to him and be close to him as many in the past. He isn't impossibly far from anyone. 

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7 hours ago, Equivocation said:

to "act"

....perhaps my English cause misunderstanding 

act

/akt/

verb
  1. 1.
    take action; do something.
    "they urged Washington to act"
    sinonimi: take action, take steps, take measures, take the initiative, move, make a move, react, do something, proceed, go ahead; 
     
     
  2. 2.
    behave in the way specified.
    "they challenged a man who was seen acting suspiciously"
    sinonimi: behave, function, react, perform; 
noun
  1. 1.
    a thing done; a deed.
    "a criminal act"
    sinonimi: deed, action, gesture, feat, exploit, move, performance, undertaking, manoeuvre, stunt, operation, venture, effort, enterprise, achievement, accomplishment
    "a life filled with acts of kindness"
  2. 2.
    a pretence.
    "she was putting on an act and laughing a lot"
    sinonimi: pretence, false display, show, front, facade, masquerade, charade, guise, posture, pose, affectation, appearance; Više

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On 1/29/2019 at 1:50 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

?? He changed Law. From Mosaic to Christ law. for example :))

Well true, but nothing changed, only fulfilled in the one man's teachings.  

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.   Matt 5:17-19

 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:40 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Did He saw what things will take place in the future

or

did He saw what things will not take place in the future?   

:))))

Both.  :)  Isa 46:10; Prov 24:12; 1 John 3:20

 

On 1/28/2019 at 5:56 PM, Equivocation said:

If you don't understand God's thinking then it would pose as a problem. And you have time to do this, and if not, well you'll be outta time, my guy.

Who understands God's thinking.? Only Christ does.  If we deviate whatsoever from his teachings, how can we even begin to understand God's thinking? 

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.  Job 38:1-4

 

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    • By The Librarian
      Special Notice: This is a controversial page. The views expressed by Raymond Franz are his alone and do not represent the views of this website or it's readers. It is included here for historical and archival reasons in holding with the truth of the events of the early 1980's - The Librarian
      Raymond Victor Franz (May 8, 1922 – June 2, 2010) was a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses from 20 October 1971 until 22 May 1980,[1][2] and served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965 until 1980. Franz claimed the request for his resignation and his subsequent disfellowshipping resulted from allegations of his apostasy from the faith.[3] Franz wrote two books that related his personal experiences with the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society and his views on Jehovah's Witnesses teachings.
      He was the principal author of the book Aid to Bible Understanding which was replaced in 1988 by the Insight on the Scriptures


      Watch Tower career
      Franz was born in 1922. His uncle, Frederick Franz, was influential in the religion's development, practices and doctrines.[4] His father associated with the Bible Student movement (from which Jehovah's Witnesses developed) and was baptized in 1913. Raymond joined the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1938, and became a baptized member in 1939.[5]

      In 1944 Franz graduated from Gilead, the religion's school for training missionaries,[6] and temporarily served the organization as a traveling representative in the continental U.S. until receiving a missionary assignment to Puerto Rico in 1946. Franz became a representative of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the Caribbean, traveling to the Virgin Islands and the Dominican Republic, at least until 1957 when Jehovah's Witnesses were banned in the Dominican Republic by dictator Rafael Trujillo.[7] At the age of 37 Franz married his wife, Cynthia, who joined him on missionary work. Both returned to the Dominican Republic in 1961 to evangelize for four more years before taking up work at Watch Tower headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.[8]

      Franz began working in the organization's writing department and was assigned to collaboratively write Aid to Bible Understanding, the first religious encyclopedia published by Jehovah's Witnesses. On 20 October 1971 he was appointed as a member of the Governing Body.[9] In his personal memoir Franz said that at the end of 1979 he reached a personal crossroad:
       

      Frustrated by what he viewed as the Governing Body's dogmatism and overemphasis on traditional views rather than reliance on the Bible in reaching doctrinal decisions, Franz and his wife decided in late 1979 they would leave the international headquarters.[11]
       

      TIME magazine February 22, 1982
      Expulsion
      In March 1980 Franz and his wife took leave of absence from the world headquarters for health reasons and moved to Alabama, where he took up laboring work on a property owned by a fellow Witness. The following month a committee of the Governing Body raised concerns over the spreading of "wrong teachings" emanating from headquarters staff and began questioning headquarters staff on their beliefs. Staff were also questioned about comments Franz had made that may have contradicted Watch Tower doctrine.[12][13] The 15 March 1980 issue of The Watchtower issued a statement of regret that its assertions of probability of Armageddon arriving before 1975 had "apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of expectation already initiated."[14] It told disappointed Jehovah's Witnesses, "including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centred on that date" to "concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint".[15] This statement, which placed blame for the disappointment about 1975 on Raymond Franz and his writing committee, precipitated a purge of that committee and eventual disfellowshipping of its sometime Chairman.[16] On May 8 1980 Franz was told that he had been implicated as an apostate.[17] He was called back to Brooklyn on May 20 for two days of questioning[18] by the Chairman's Committee. Franz claimed the discussion concerned allegations that some Witnesses were meeting privately to discuss various teachings of the Watch Tower Society that may have constituted apostasy.

      On 21 May 1980 Franz was called to a Governing Body session, questioned for three hours about his Bible viewpoints and commitment to Watch Tower doctrines[2][19] and agreed to a request to resign from the Governing Body and headquarters staff. Franz refused the Watch Tower Society's offer of a monthly stipend as a member of the "Infirm Special Pioneers".[20] The Governing Body investigation resulted in the disfellowshipping of several other headquarters staff.[21][22][23]

      On 1 September 1980 the Governing Body distributed a letter to all Circuit and District overseers stating that apostates need not be promoting doctrines to be disfellowshipped. The letter stated that individuals who persisted in "believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof" were also apostatizing and therefore warranted "appropriate judicial action".[18][24]

      On 18 March 1981 Franz's employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from Jehovah's Witnesses. A Watchtower article on 15 September 1981 announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the religion were to be treated by Witnesses as a disfellowshipped wrongdoer.[25] Franz, who continued to socialize with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on 25 November and disfellowshiped for disobeying the edict.[2][26][27] Determined to set the record straight, not only with respect to his having been disfellowshiped, but with respect to larger doctrinal issues, in 1982 he sent Heather and Gary Botting proofs of his upcoming book Crisis of Conscience so that they could chronicle the more widespread discord within the Watch Tower Society.[28] They wrote regarding Franz's contribution to their expose on the Witnesses that his recommendations "undoubtedly strengthened the veracity of the text; we were impressed by his insistence on both fairness and frankness with respect to representing the view of the Watch Tower Society."[29] Following his disfellowshiping, Franz published two books—Crisis of Conscience (1983) and In Search of Christian Freedom (1991)—presenting detailed accounts of his experiences as a Jehovah's Witness, a Governing Body member, and his experiences throughout various levels of the organization.

      Franz was ultimately disfellowshipped for having dinner with his employer, a disassociated brother. See also this video
      Our Kingdom Service, August 1980 announced when he left the GB and Bethel.
      Death
      On 30 May 2010, at age 88, Franz fell and suffered a brain hemorrhage.[30] He died on 2 June 2010.[30]

      References
      "Announcements", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, page 2, "This is a notification that Raymond Victor Franz is no longer a member of the Governing Body and of the Brooklyn Bethel family as of May 22, 1980." "Witness Under Prosecution", Richard H. Ostling, Anne Constable, Time Magazine, February 22, 1982. "Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", by John Dart, Los Angeles Times, August 27, 1987. Part 1."Church Told to Break Privacy, Report 'Sinner'", part 2. Rogerson 1969, p. 66 Franz 2002, p. 11 "Gilead’s 61st Graduation a Spiritual Treat", The Watchtower, November 1, 1976, page 671. Franz 2002, p. 16 Franz 2002, pp. 19, 20 Franz 2002, p. 31 Franz 2002, p. 273 Franz 2002, p. 274,275 Penton 1997, pp. 119–121 Franz 2002, p. 298,299 p. 17 pp. 17-18 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 48-49, 158-163 Franz 2002, pp. 312, 313 Beverley 1986, p. 71 Franz 2002, p. 331 Franz 2002, p. 332 Penton 1997, p. 121 Botting & Botting 1984, p. 161 "Branch Letter", Our Kingdom Ministry, August 1980, "We are saddened to report at this time that five members of the Bethel family, and a few others in the New York city area have recently been disfellowshiped. There has been some apostasy against the organization and the promoting of sectarian divisions in some of the congregations of God’s people. (Titus 3:9-11) Living as we are in times difficult to deal with, it should not be surprising that such things occur. The first-century congregation also experienced deviations as we well know from our reading of the Holy Scriptures.—1 Tim. 1:20; 4:1; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 1 Cor. 15:12, 13; Acts 20:29, 30." Protecting the Flock, Watch Tower Society letter to district and circuit overseers, September 1, 1980, part 1. Protecting the Flock, Part 2. "Disfellowshiping — How to View It", The Watchtower, September 15, 1981, page 23, "One who has been a true Christian might renounce the way of the truth, stating that he no longer considers himself to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or wants to be known as one. When this rare event occurs, the person is renouncing his standing as a Christian, deliberately disassociating himself from the congregation ... Persons who make themselves 'not of our sort' by deliberately rejecting the faith and beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses should appropriately be viewed and treated as are those who have been disfellowshiped for wrongdoing." Franz 2002, pp. 357–369 "Expelled Witnesses Claim Group is Ingrown", Miami News, March 19, 1983. the Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 161-63 The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses,p. xxiii "Obituary". Legacy.com. Bibliography
      Beverley, James A. (1986). Crisis of Allegiance. Burlington, Ontario: Welch Publishing Company. ISBN 0-920413-37-4. Botting, Heather; Botting, Gary (1984). The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses. University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-6545-7. Franz, Raymond (2002). Crisis of Conscience. Commentary Press. ISBN 0-914675-23-0. Penton, M. J. (1997). Apocalypse Delayed (2nd ed.). University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-7973-3. Rogerson, Alan (1969). Millions Now Living Will Never Die: A Study of Jehovah's Witnesses. Constable & Co, London. ISBN 0-0945-5940-6. External Links
      Richard N. Ostling (February 22, 1982), "Religion: Witness Under Prosecution", Time magazine. Raymond Franz at Find a Grave  
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