What Happens When A Couple of the Opposite Sex Are Alone?

[Space Merchant]

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And i still disagree with you. I don't care what you study and what you know. You have great knowledge but do you have experience of the JW Org personally ? You are not one and I presume you would not be one. 

Unfortunately you have to care because whenever it comes to a person and or group's practice, anyone who is against them will say something entirely different, examples being when it is spoken of that Jehovah's Witnesses having guns in their churches, poisons at the ready and the like, this isn't true, yet others, profess it as a truth, even going as far as to say their own religious leaders are planning a Jim Jones type attack from leaders to their church followers.

I have studied several religions for years, this includes the Jehovah's Witnesses, as with other Abrahamic faiths, the reason is to understand where they are coming from and understand that even former members of the faith can say things that do not line up with it, this goes for other things such a Islam whereas some people make say things and add from conspiracy in order to justify a violent response to a person and or group, be it verbally or physically. You of all people should know how this is in the United Kingdom, especially London.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Many of the victims Earthwide have said they were not believed because of the two witness rule.  Don't believe it, ok, have your own thoughts on it all. 

How are you so sure that this is the ruling vs. what the actually meaning of it is? I have confronted ExJWs also, some of them who even threaten me with death, one of them being the one you mentioned before, of which you linked his gofundme page, that same exJW allied people to attack others, especially those who were against them in their resolve.

You, as with them stated that this two witness ruling protects any wrongdoer in the JW church, mainly when it comes to pedophilia, and yet the actually ruling and application is vastly different from what the exJWs speak of, for even Anti-JWs recognize what the ruling actually is and I quote myself (You called me a parrot for stating something that was actually true as with the exposure of how NBC is - for NBC is a mainstream news media that is part of the agenda to spread misinformation and a list of other things)

Quote

Now, they've mentioned the whole Two Witness Ruling the faith group has and according to NBC they stated the following: one that requires two witnesses to a crime to prove guilt, a tenet that's in keeping with the Witnesses' strict, often literal interpretation of the Bible.

There is more to it and not much is known when people do not do the research.

We already know Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist, meaning they take the Bible seriously, for Restorationism, also described as Christian primitivism, is the belief that Christianity has been or should be restored along the lines of what is known about the apostolic early church, which restorationists see as the search for a more pure and more ancient form of the religion. Fundamentally, "this vision seeks to correct faults or deficiencies (in the church) by appealing to the primitive church as a normative model." according to The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).

As for their rule, to them, their policy of  states: "When any one of Jehovah's Witnesses is accused of an act of child abuse, the local congregation elders are expected to investigate. Two elders meet separately with the accused and the accuser to see what each says on the matter. For this is based in Deuteronomy 19:15 and reaffirmed in Matthew 18:15-17.

From this alone, it should be noted that this two witness ruling has nothing to do with whether the alleged abuse is reported to the authorities, despite what some people even NBC is led to believe, for we have to thank the ARC to better clarify this rule the WT has. For even though they have this policy and or ruling, even in their books and publications  never state that abuse or crime should not be reported unless there are two witnesses to the crime, case and point.

The two witness rule as applied by Jehovah's Witnesses and their church is only applied to determine if a judicial committee should be formed to handle any form/type of sin and or wrongdoing within the JW church itself, hence internally criminally, for JWs are not Law Enforcement. WT pastors also send letters to the elders and stewards of their church to show that anyone is free to report child abuse to the authorities at any time without sanctions from the church, even encouraging such reporting.

But again, people who do not do the research themselves will constantly say that this is bad policy since child molesters usually do not attack their target with others around, such also are lead to believe that and or even profess that this ruling protects the abuser and not the abused. Granted JWs take the Bible both seriously and literally, such ruling stems from the Bible itself, regarding them, for they, and or the bible, according to how this ruling is, repeatedly speaks of the need for two witnesses to establish any matter, as seen in a few verses for example: Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1,  and 1 Timothy 5:19.

And because of this like this, people tend to throw things out the window, even calling these Bible  and passages like these obscure and not applicable in these modern times - for they forget that Jehovah's Witnesses, are Restorationist, for Restorationist do everything in their power to separate themselves from mainstream Christendom and align themselves with the how everything was done in the early church, thus taking scripture literally, therefore they, the Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that it is best for them to follow the words of the son of God and the inspired apostle Paul rather than the opinions of others, hence their strong stance.

So the fact of the matter is, many people, even NBC, do not realize just what the two witness ruling entails without making the research. Others may know but they don't want you to know and just so they try to hide just who or what can serve as two witnesses, in this sense.

With all these facts, it is unscriptural to apply excommunication an individual at the mouth of one witness, in terms of ruling, for God's word should take precedent over the thinking of imperfect ones. Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, applying the two witness ruling, on their part, is reasonable and logical, and clearly not to otherwise deny the Bible itself.

The situation is a bit different regarding a single witness, but a bit of research one can actually understand it.

So I am 100% aware of the ruling, as with everyone else, mind you, the information I got was from a former JW who does not align himself with the ones you get your information from, she is this way because of the constant disruption of church service of JWs done by ExJWs who are this way.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Having been a JW in more than one congregation, for many years,  i know how some Elders work. Having been threatened with being disfellowshipped by an elder that didn't have the authority to do it, I have seen their 'works'.  They do not go by the rules all the time, or, in fact, it's more the point of, the written rules on paper are just a front.  Those things you might read on paper, written by the Governing Body or more likely by their Legal Departments, are all a complete front. They do it because it's what is expected of them. But they don't live by it.

Regardless if you are a JW, former or not, and or studied with them it is not unknown to anyone how a church elder works, for the Bible speaks of stewards of the church that do the exact same thing when it comes to maintaining, helping church members, moreover, your former JW church does not define ALL JW Churches, example, another UK like you, Kathgar is a JW, he is most likely an elder at this point and isn't a fan of hate, nor is he a fan of the Trinity and he has expressed that time and time again, at the same time, he treats all in his JW church like his own blood and family, at the same time he holds true to what the Bible says, for if one is expelled form the church, it is applied, and according to him, he visit to encourage them to not only return, but to read the Bible extensively.

If they do not go by the rules then why is it they have the ability to expel when it comes to wrong doing? They do live by what Jesus entrusted the church in terms of excommunication and the like, so they are following. Other than that, I am aware of their legal department, and granted Restorationist are not the type to lie - I would not call it as much of a front, as you claim.

I do not read the papers, it is mainstream media and I believe I made myself clear I adhere to independent media sources that are not bogged down by the government - reasons for doing so, especially with what the US an their allies, the UK, France, Saudi Arabia are doing and the numbers of people whom they have intentionally killed, people like Serena Shim. That being said some independents know who the Jehovah's Witnesses are and even they are able to understand how they operate an their rules and regulations, and also know that even the Jehovah's Witnesses are not immune when it comes to pedophiles entering their churches without them knowingly, furthermore.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Become a JW yourself if you think they are so right. Spend five years in the JW Org, see the things that really happen.  Otherwise stop pretending to know things that you have no real idea about.  

I studied them as I do with others for several years, I have talked to both the current and the former, as with the disgruntled ones, in which I defended a man whom they attacked, as I made this known several months ago, for this man was not even a JW yet his actions prevented chaos in his neighborhood.

There's a reason as to why some ExJWs ran him off social media, because the 2 hour video he posted was actually true of the situation, and now that this information is gone, ExJws are in full force since that day.

I do not pretend, so do not assume something without valid proof, a route I suggest you yourself not cross Mr. Butler because the last person who assume I pretended things, a racist man in fact, things did not go in his favor.

That being said, I suggest you not be oblivious to the fact that Bible Hermeneutics, the study of the Bible does not exist or the fact the studying of religions does not exist, when it reality, both these things do in fact exist and many, many people study it, me included granted my own father ha studied the Bible the rest of his life and I continued that legacy and will do the same for my own, in addition, to a great deal of things and information that I am aware of that you are not, as with all here, i.e. Ambrosia, False Flags, Broken States, Shadow Government, etc. and most importantly, who is really with Babylon the Great.

I will always profess truth when someone says something different, Mr. Butler and the truth has been spoken in terms of how their ruling is, even ARC clarified it and I made that information known to you before.

[Space Merchant]

@BillyTheKid46 The thing here is people out there are doing research and they understand how the ruling is for your faith community. But it seems although the Jehovah's Witnesses are not immune to the problems of abuses just as many, even us Unitarians of all denominations are not immune to it either, the actions of one does not define the masses, but sadly people believe this. In my case, not only am I a Biblical Unitarian, but I am someone of color and regardless of what someone does or says, they define me as a criminal, granted with what I had to deal with the other day, as with many in this community.

There will always be hate, and there will always be someone, even former ones of your own who are disgruntled to the point that they believe anything another former member says and believes it, as I told someone else and Butler before, the ones they adhere to believe that you JWs got a whole weapon bunker and poisons under your church, which is untrue, they tend to attack you for the whole blood issue, not realizing that even other Christians share that same view and this view applies to several groups of people due to their culture, etc.

But is is crazy how people tend to be close minded when the whole world has problems, not just solely a group, and these problems affect everyone.

That being said, if you have a group of disgruntled ones who are willing to break law and or attack other religions and their own to take out one religious group, that is seen as a problem and a concern.

One of the very reasons I am grateful that I studied all faiths to understand where they are coming from and their rules and beliefs.

[JOHN BUTLER]

SM, you seem to like to say that all Ex-JW's cause trouble. You seem to put them all in the same pot together.

Every person on this Earth is an individual. So it is also with Ex-JW's. 

I for one would never cause physical harm to anyone. I do not go to protest marches or mobs. I do not believe all I read. I never buy a newspaper as each one is biased in one direction or the other. And i do not deliberately hurt people's emotions. I just speak truth as i know it.

You have spoken with ex-JW's about their feelings and thoughts. Well that is good. But i tell you that JW's are not allowed to speak to ex-JW's, it is forbidden. Shunning as you know is common. So, JW's cannot ever get a balanced view. If a person is born, raised and schooled in the JW Org', then that is all they ever know. Because they are told not to look outside. 

My point is to bring some balance in, to let people know that the JW Org is not as pure and clean as some may think. I sit in the middle if you like, a sort of neutral position.  Amos 5 v 15

Hate what is bad, and love what is good, Let justice prevail in the city gate.It may be that Jehovah the God of armies Will show favor to the remaining ones of Joseph.’

If you see hate in me sometimes, then it is because i follow God's word and want what is right for people. Just as this scripture says. 

[Equivocation]

@Space Merchant They distort the what the two witness rule actually is about and among them they have division amongst themselves and have created another vacuum of religous hatred.

I still remember when they came to us and branded us all as pedophiles and they disrupted our service. 

The man that stopped the disruptive protest is a former Bible Student,  a friend of John Cedars. The video was not 2 hours but it was 2 parts, length to 2 hours so half correct. 

A friend of mine, his girlfriend is a Jehovah's Witness who was one for a few years. He defended his girlfriend only for disgruntled Jehovah's Witnesses to denounce him, they made a video about it also discrediting his girlfriend and forcefully suggest that she is a cultist and encouraged separation. 

The Congregation that was disrupted was in New Jersey, the disruption was done by a man who goes by the name Faithful Discreet Slave and his company of nearly a dozen followers. Although they were booted from the Kingdom Hall they continued to insult, even calling elders Janitors as well as made threats. This one believes in aggressive protest.

The positive is that other churches and the community of passaic do not agree with Disgruntled Jehovah's Witnesses and were against them on their trek to Warwick, this took place during the Antifa event and elsewhere the attack on a Jewish Cemetery in the same county. 

[Equivocation]

@JOHN BUTLER If that is the case. Do you see me as a pedophile or a pedophile lover? And are you aware that there is 2 main factions of former Jehovah's Witnesses that wants to be aggressive and the other who are passive yet influential of action? Former Jehovah's Witnesses spare no time to drag my Family name in the street yet we still show mercy from a barrage that comes at us unexpectingly.

I choose Jehovah's Witnesses because I know it is the truth. I am not unaware of the problems this world faces as with what is going on with us because we preach to the people, and at times we do not know the intent of the person. Yes we have the GB, but the core focus is in serving God the Father, Jehovah, no one else.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

37 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER If that is the case. Do you see me as a pedophile or a pedophile lover? And are you aware that there is 2 main factions of former Jehovah's Witnesses that wants to be aggressive and the other who are passive yet influential of action? Former Jehovah's Witnesses spare no time to drag my Family name in the street yet we still show mercy from a barrage that comes at us unexpectingly.

I choose Jehovah's Witnesses because I know it is the truth. I am not unaware of the problems this world faces as with what is going on with us because we preach to the people, and at times we do not know the intent of the person. Yes we have the GB, but the core focus is in serving God the Father, Jehovah, no one else.

 

It is not my place to judge you at all. I don't know you. And even if i knew you well it would still not be my place to judge you. Neither God himself or Jesus Christ has given me any authority, so why would i make so bold as to judge you. 

However, are you then judging me as being so wicked as to want to harm you or your family ?  

You say I choose Jehovah's Witnesses because I know it is the truth.  That is a sweeping statement. As I've stated before much of the teachings have been changed many times, so much has not been truth at all.  Length of Creative days, meaning of Superior Authorities and more... To serve Jehovah only, through Jesus Christ only, would mean questioning your GB on many issues. 

[Equivocation]

@JOHN BUTLER I didn't ask you to judge. I asked you a question. All questions have a direct answer.

so am I or am I not? Because if you knew how much we forgive even when met with opposition from former Jehovah's Witnesses, you'd see that but every time we are shot down in every attempt. Some of us ridiculed and demonized yet we still are peaceful towards those who oppose, our fellow man.

[Srecko Sostar]

What Happens When A Couple of the Opposite Sex Are Alone?

 

What happens When a few brothers stay with opposite sex (sister)?  I heard from one elder many years ago how that was situation between few brothers and one single sister in swimming pool. I can not believe myself until today was that really happened, but this elder said that to me with all seriousness how all of them have sex with that sister.  Not know about final outcome.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Equivocation No all questions do not have a direct answer, that is worldly thinking. It is trickery just like the Pharisees tried with Jesus. 

Good try, just not good enough... I'll repeat, I will not judge you. How would I know if you are or not. I know nothing about you. Perhaps if i knew you personally for 6 months, then i could make an assumption. But even assumptions can be wrong. Sorry to disappoint you by not falling for your trick. 

I would not oppose you, i would just give you a balanced viewpoint. It would seem that you and others look for opposition deliberately. 

Pretending to be forgiving does not cut any deal with God. 

. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Not all opposers of the Watchtower are former members.

There is a good percentage of former witnesses that guide their lives by, live and let live standard. Those that are more aggressive usually have been disfellowshipped, or they found themselves with too much time on the internet for them to become a moral fiber of judgment.

The misstatement of judgment can be seen with some but not others. In my case, I am rebuked for speaking the truth through scripture. M.S. is criticized but with a softer tone (Respect) while you are told you are not judged. This comes from the same person. While others use the same formula to ridicule. It appears honesty is far from some people’s heart. They choose who to interact with and who to insult. All while making adjustments and using justification with the word judge. Humor does have its privileges.

 

Best to treat everyone as equal and up the good points and down the bad ones. I've agreed with you on somethings and disagreed with you on others.

I don't judge individuals that i don't really know, in the JW Org or outside, but I speak plainly about what i can see to be true or false. I only judge those i know as to whether i should associate with them or not.

Some on here seem to describe assertive people as aggressive. Maybe they should learn the difference before commenting on people. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

8 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would agree the definition of some words fail with some, especially when it comes to intent. Assertive undermines the reality of some people’s heart to become an excuse to see the true nature of the beast. A good place to start would be with the Proverbs. Ephesians 5:15-17

 

Meanwhile, I will accept your personal insults as they are intended.

 

 

Yes  Ephesians Ch 5 is most interesting. As is verse 1 of chapter 1 which reads:-

1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are in Ephʹe·susa and are faithful in union with Christ Jesus:

We note it is to the Holy Ones. Not the earthly class.

Chapter 5. v1 says : as beloved children, The children of God are the Earthly class.

However v 6 says : ⁶  Let no man deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 

The sons are the Anointed that receive the inheritance. So are the 'sons' of disobedience the Anointed that do not serve God properly ? 

As for your final sentence, you choose how you accept them. 

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JOHN BUTLER I didn't ask you to judge. I asked you a question. All questions have a direct answer.

so am I or am I not? Because if you knew how much we forgive even when met with opposition from former Jehovah's Witnesses, you'd see that but every time we are shot down in every attempt. Some of us ridiculed and demonized yet we still are peaceful towards those who oppose, our fellow man.

He will not answer that because it would go over his own resolve in his past comments, but I can. Clearly, regardless if I know you are not, you are not a pedophile and a lover of pedophiles for it is known to anyone a lone individual and or a small number of people do not make up the masses, therefore Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole are indeed good people, those who become Jehovah's Witnesses their intent is unknown, they can pursuit the faith, one can be a gang stalker, and of course, pertaining to Mr. Butler, one's intent to cause harm to a child, a pedophile, for again, a lone pedophile who exploits a religious institution to gain some position does not make up the masses, yet at times he tends to throw church stewards and or elders on the same level in other instances, even comparing the UK ones to others, for as far as I am concern, Butler has never met Kathgar, so to make a statement about elders of a JW church to define all of them is meaningless if you have not met all of them.

As for the other question, there are indeed 2 factions, among both factions several branches, but there is another, well 2, one being former Jehovah's Witnesses who are not on a warpath against their former faith, going as far as to even defend it and it's people, as well as defending themselves from an onslaught of insult and verbal threats from any disgruntled former JW online, which is evident. Then you have Anti-JWs, who are pretty much atheists, not only they hate both JWs and ExJws with a passion, they hate Christendom as a whole and will not respect the bible at all, the leader they follow, if I made had goes by the name Friendly Atheist, the other one, I forget his name, but this one affiliated himself in pornography.

To add more fuel to the fire, when their atheist community does something, they are quick to defend themselves, but when others do it, it is a sign of confrontation, which is the case with any who is affiliated with Christendom, be it main and or true, this includes their view of anyone in Restorationism, in this case, JWs.

The lack of understanding stems from those who do not bear it, but those who do bear it can discern.