RECLAIMED VOICES new letter to JW brothers and sisters.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

These same folks who point the finger at John, defend a policy that does not report anything to the police. 

Except that the policy does support reporting to the police

[Shiwiii]

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

Except that the policy does support reporting to the police

Who are you trying to fool? You or others? Because it isn't me that you are fooling. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

11.25 pm Friday,  That's over 24 hours and NO reply from local Police on the matter. 

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

It is not a problem, it is exactly how it is. The jurisdictional system in a congregation deals with sin, the Jurisdictional system of the Government deals with crime and both can be applied to the same instance at the same time. In the case of child sexual molestation, it is both, a sin and a crime. So both jurisdictional systems are needed.

Product of such System and Idea is Absolutely Confusing Situation. In such case JW People have at least  3 Judges; Elders, 144000, Court of the World, JHVH, Jesus, People around you, ...You yourself. :)))) funny and tragic. 

This is The Problem!! 

Distinction, difference and similarity about sin and crime. Confusing. Basic idea of Mosaic Law have not such idea, Sin was same as Crime and vice versa. All ended in Punish. By One Court Body. Not existed 2 parallel system. 

Because Christians movement not forming Nation or Nations as Jew, they are subject to Worldly system of Justice. Worldly system have paragraphs on what is forbidden and what you have to do, otherwise you can be sentenced in some way. 

What is good or bad, sin or not sin is theological issue. Not belong to Secular Ideology. Again, Romans book clearly said how ALL Christian must obey Law of Government. Secular Court is appointed to deal with JW and their acts in all cases that are described in Law books and other Obligation for citizens. If some is not satisfied with that there are a ways how to change Legislative about particular case.    

[Srecko Sostar]

21 hours ago, Anna said:

For example, secular law does not prohibit Adultery or fornication. However God does.

Maybe it is so in "Western" countries. In some other countries people who doing this or similar stuff will be punished. 

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

These would have been personal disputes between two brothers (or sisters) that did not involve a sin or a crime.  It would be better if these brothers could handle this between themselves peacefully, rather than get "worldly" courts to judge who was right and who was wrong.

For personal disputes, as your explanation about what means "small things" from Romans, you do not need elders and Worldly Judges.

But if such persons can not be able to solve problem of "small things" between themselves, than perhaps "small things" are not so small at all. It is difficult to know, for us today, what was "small things" in Romans book.   

 

[Arauna]

Can someone please tell me what the laws were in the 1950s, 1960, 1970 and 1980s in most countries of the world?   If you can answer this then I am prepared to talk to you.  You seem to rush to condemn the organization for not doing something when there were not yet laws in place.... so hurry and do some research!

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Can someone please tell me what the laws were in the 1950s, 1960, 1970 and 1980s in most countries of the world?   If you can answer this then I am prepared to talk to you.  You seem to rush to condemn the organization for not doing something when there were not yet laws in place.... so hurry and do some research!

 

Quote " then I am prepared to talk to you. "  Do you think some of us care if you will talk to us or not. Why are you trying to make yourself seem so important that we need to justify ourselves to you ? Typical JW attitude, thinking too much of yourself. 

God's laws have been there for far longer than man's laws. Hence a true Christian knows what is the right action to take and never needs the law of the land to guide them in that way. 

Are you suggesting that here in the UK, and in USA, Australia, Canada, that it was actually legal to rape or sexually abuse young children ?

And are you suggesting that if a law of the land was not in place then you would happily stand by and let it happen ?

Typical JW stand on the matter. But when a law of the land is in place to join the Armed forces you will disobey it. Rightly so because God does not want a person to go to war. So when it seems suitable to disobey the law then you disobey it.

But,  you seem to need a law of the land, to make you obey God's law, on Love and protection and care of young children, and adults that need your help within the JW Org, and those that have had to leave because of the disgusting abuse.  

How strange that you would choose when to serve God and when not to. 

Your GB have proven themselves to treat the victims of child abuse within the JW Org as collateral damage. This is typical American thinking.

Your GB has proven that they see themselves and the JW Organisation as more important than serving God or Jesus christ. 

Your GB has proven that they do not love the people of the congregation. And this is only in the Countries that we know about.

I honestly fear for the children in countries like India, Pakistan, Africa, from where we have no news of the abuse. What terrible things are happening to children there.  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You seem to rush to condemn the organization for not doing something when there were not yet laws in place

You received some view on this by John. He made good points. 

For a long time, WT publications shows JW religion as superior over all other religions. For what reason? For it is considered as the only right/true that came from God alone. Considered by whom? By Leaders and Members. Their Self Valuations on own interpretations about Bible and derived Organizational Doctrines from such Interpretations, and the way how they practice own religious beliefs, gave them this Right to Think so about themselves. Most of all, they are very confident in idea how God Himself with help of Jesus, GUIDING this earthly Leaders of this Multilevel Corporation/s. In their eyes God not running only Spiritual aspects of religion, but also All other parts of JW System under Leadership of WT and GB who are, supposedly, putted in this place by God Himself (or by Jesus, doesn't matter).  

In Light of this "knowledge" that exist inside GB and JW members, it can be very disappointing to see how WT Company have problems and "do not know how" handle things that is not Nothing New from religious point of Thinking. How so? Because all those things already were happen and described in the Bible. And WT (not only one in the World) preaching about Bible past records, prophecies, last days, big world problems, immorality and all evil things in 20, and now in this 21 century. 

So, how came to this reaction of WT and GB that they must get special commands, instructions, laws and Court decisions on how to handle Child Sexual Abuse problems inside own JW Organization? How is possible that such Faithful and Discrete (wise) Leaders not see what Bible told them to do as Prevention and as Solution of Issue?

As result they are "called" by Secular Authorities as any other "human" organization to pay for mishandling and "ignorance" toward own members who suffered as victims. And to pay millions of $ from voluntary donations that was Dedicated and Given by JW people for God and Kingdom News and NOT for Court and Out of Court Settlements in to private pockets!!!

Such kind of Self Importance, Humble Superiority, Elitism on religious basis, because they think about self as The Only People on Earth who doing God's Will. That is really Big Burden on their backs to carry on. 

But despite all objective problems that ones have to face in dealing with molestation issue, with or with out The Laws (worldly laws), JW Religion who's "Founder" is no one else but God, can not have excuse, especially not in a way You wish to present to us, how WT depends on Wisdom of this fallen World.       

[Arauna]

I did not read the comments above.  I did my own research on the history of the laws regarding this subject a few years back.  I just get so sick of those who always want to put the Organization in the bad light - they use the available information to twist the truth to look like the organization is full of pedophiles and condoners of it.

In Australia  there were records to the effect that Jw's had about a  thousand people since 1950 - which means , in the last 70 years - these were alleged child sex abusers.  Some of these were accused but there was not sufficient proof to put them out of the congregation.  In this time there were about 40 years that there were no proper laws in place to prosecute - and later when they could there were still not child services readily available and the laws were very bad.  It did not protect the child from a victimization via the court system.

Of all the organizations interviewed (almost 2000) - our organization was the only organization (of all the churches, youth organizations, sports organizations that work with children) which kept notes on these people because there were not laws in place to prosecute.  JWs kept notes on them so they could not go to another congregation and not be informed upon.

While it is a heinous crime and bad people can slip into the organization I think people are incredibly naive if they think that this number is high.  

In 2003 a law was passed in United States which made prosecution of sex offenders easier.  Before that the child could be cross-examined in court by the defender's hostile representatives.  They allowed for taped evidence etc. 

It is easy to look back with todays laws in place and judge the past on this.   I have mentioned it before on this forum and then the very same people after a while open up the same subject again - which means that they are not prepared to be reasonable and really weigh the evidence.

The purpose of the Australian inquiry was to address the gaps in the law and they were investigating the procedures various organizations were following to  find out where the gaps were so better legislation can be put in place.

[Arauna]

While there are laws in place for reporting this crime - I know for a fact that there were child sex rings in several villages in the UK where the parent went to police and they  were not followed up in UK.... just read up about Rotherham....it is only one of the places. 

There are also laws in place which protect lawyers and preachers from revealing confidential information....  So elders will tell the parents to report it - especially if the evidence is scant.   Professionals are hopefully available at the police station to speak to the child and get evidence for a conviction.

While I cannot say I like this law - the other aspect of it also gives the repentant person a chance to get their life back on track.  Someone said that they may do it again....... yes the possibility is high.  But if parents with children are informed about it then an eye can be kept on the perpetrator so his freedom is curtailed.  Jehovah allows for repentance - so must we find them guilty before they have done it again?

Is watching them person with an allegation against them not enough?  

[Arauna]

Mr Butler - all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof - so they are not prepared to stick their own head out and do something.  So if you are not prepared to do something yourself then who put you in a situation to judge others whom you feel have not done enough?