Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, Top Cat O’Malihan said:

That goes for you, too, @Outta Here. You guys itching for a cat fight?

My cat, your cat?

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, FelixCA said:

The Herald of Christ Presence is the longest running BS magazine

Just a suggestion, an ambiguity check is always in order.

[JOHN BUTLER]

What a load of tosh and rabble !       None of this really matters does it ?

It's becoming a hate and judgement page !

I'm an ex JW and yes my personality has gone down hill since leaving the Org, but some of you are JW's or pretending to be, and I'm quite surprised at the attitude of many. I've always been a rebel and you know why as I've given you my life story,  but many of you will at your Sunday meetings, all smiles and pretend 'love' for the congregation. Yes here it has become a war zone.

TTH talks about the 'worldly wicked' and how we need the swat team to keep us in place. But this forum has become the war zone of keyboard warriors. I do not see one ounce / gram of love in any on here. 

I know I'm no better and yes the rafter is big in my eye, but I'm no longer a JW so I've dropped a lot of the hype. But many of you are supposed to be JW's, the 'only true religion' remember ? Where is your love ? Jesus said we should love our enemies, not try to 'get one over on them'. Everyone on here seems to have the same reason for being here, just to out do the others. 

Srecko is the only person that I have found to be genuine. TTH is too busy gaining material for his books  The rest are just bent on getting the upper hand. I don't think Jesus worked in such a way. 

 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He has picked up on the aeons and epochs of that recent Watchtower that JWI may have misattributed to someone else. At any rate, I refered to it, too, and I take both words to mean long periods of indeterminate length

JWI may have misattributed? Them's fighting words! Snarl. Hiss. 😉

Yes, You had referred to it, too. My response to something Outta Here said was based on him saying the same thing last year, because he seemed to tie it to the old thinking about the timing of Adam and Eve's creation and the potential obsolescence of the once all-important gap between them. Here was the context of his words:

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

What a load of tosh and rabble !       None of this really matters does it ?

It's becoming a hate and judgement page !

Sorry that I added so much evidence for that assessment in my last few posts, especially. But I do take issue with the idea that "none of this really matters."

Witnesses have long moved on from being too concerned about the personalities of R.Franz and F.Franz. But for some persons, dredging it up again can immediately bring up feelings of hate and judgment. For me, everyone is imperfect and liable to mistakes, including me of course. But I'm concerned when a Biblical principle gets violated and we feel that facts no longer matter:

• (Exodus 23:7) . . .“Have nothing to do with a false accusation . . .  for I will not declare the wicked one righteous.

• (Proverbs 17:15) . . .Anyone who acquits the wicked one and anyone who condemns the righteous one —Both of them are detestable to Jehovah.

The point is exaggerated, but the principle remains. We don't want to let our feelings get in the way of facts when it comes to how strongly we condemn or praise the lives of imperfect men. This includes R.Franz and F.Franz. Sure, it's comforting for some to see one as a devil and one as an angel; it fits a "world view" that some can use to bring a hammer down on others. This goes for ex-JWs who want to see R.Franz as a kind of "angel" and Witnesses who want to see R.Franz as a devil, for example. But there are cracks in these "world views" that anyone can see. Seeing those cracks reduces the comfort level of some and threatens to reduce the power of the hammer for others.

The Bible says to let our reasonableness become known to all, and yet reasonableness from one person will often trigger unreasonable responses. And I can see how I have been unreasonable here a few times, but it's always good to have someone else point it out too, as you have. We can't always see our own faults very well. 

But there is another way in which I think it's wrong to dismiss all of this saying, "None of this really matters does it?"

It's because our very Christianity should be focused on the sort of persons we ought to be every day, precisely because we know that the end could come at any time within our lifetimes. And precisely because we know that it might come, in effect, 1,000 years from now, after we die, for example. Jesus had a good reason for emphasizing why dates and times and seasons were not in our jurisdiction, but in the jurisdiction of the Father. The time was none of our concern. Yet, as a group, we have put so much energy into dates and chronology, and even used this "urgency" as a motivator instead of love as a motivator. To me, I "harp on it" because Jesus and the rest of the Bible made it clear that this really did matter.

[JW Insider]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:22 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I don't care who denies it, but that is what was taught. Creative days =7,000 years. Rest day 6,000 years then Armageddon, then 1,000 years of Christ's rule. Then Christ hands it all back to God ( possibly for a Jubilee year ? or some such).. 

Yes. This goes all the way back to Russell's "Photo-Drama of Creation" which emphasized the 49,000 years of creative days. I don't think anyone here has denied that this is what we taught. But in the 1970's, the cracks in this view were already beginning to be seen. It had become a way to put more emphasis on 1975. But it was also realized that 1975 could become an embarrassment. And the Aid book, produced by a team led by R.Franz, had provided evidence that the very foundation for all this emphasis was built on sand.

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yes. This goes all the way back to Russell's "Photo-Drama of Creation" which emphasized the 49,000 years of creative days. I don't think anyone here has denied that this is what we taught. But in the 1970's, the cracks in this view were already beginning to be seen. It had become a way to put more emphasis on 1975. But it was also realized that 1975 could become an embarrassment. And the Aid book, produced by a team led by R.Franz, had provided evidence that the very foundation for all this emphasis was built on sand.

Although none of this brings any of us closer to God, I will share another thought that I had years ago.

I thought 2015. 40 years in the wilderness for the Org not being ready in 1975.   But we are not supposed to now and we know we are not supposed to know.

That is why it is not important. Because it does not bring any of us closer to God. 

[FelixCA]

7 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Just a suggestion, an ambiguity check is always in order.

Outta, I always fact check before leaping into an assumption. It’s best not to show people how ignorant we are here, just because the “Herald” has had slight name changes over the century. It doesn’t stop being THE HERALD.

Unless you are going to argue like JWinsider with wordplay with the phrase " The Herald of Christ Presence " as it's also known by.

[FelixCA]

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. Yet you’re a creature of habit to keep bringing up the past as though it has somehow been a mistake. Just keep reminding yourself, it’s a mistake with people like you. It’s your personal opinion that the Watchtower has erred. Yet, you don’t wish to see the flaws in your own interpretation. This is the kind of things that are willing to be accepted by who, Comfortmypeople, JTR? These people would be just in the dark as your explanation. You have made yourself a “messiah” to proclaim your false understanding and your false teaching with anything related to the Watchtower. People that have no business being part of an organization, it clearly feels disdain for.

You and your kind have lost the right to criticize the Watchtower as a faithful member. Knowing Butler was an Ex-JW from other sites, proves how far people are willing to go to make others think they have a sad story to tell and have a legitimate grievance, even though it took him long enough to finally come out with the truth.

He knows where he stands before God and is not a hypocrite, or at least not now that he admits it. Where does that leave some of you? Especially those that are no longer in good standing with the Org.

Therefore, with the presentation offered by JWinsider proves one thing, distortion of facts, just like Raymond, since he is offering no scriptural proof, just overdrawn conclusions on what he personally thinks the Watchtower publications are conveying.

 

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

37 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. Yet you’re a creature of habit to keep bringing up the past as though it has somehow been a mistake. Just keep reminding yourself, it’s a mistake with people like you. It’s your personal opinion that the Watchtower has erred. Yet, you don’t wish to see the flaws in your own interpretation. This is the kind of things that are willing to be accepted by who, Comfortmypeople, JTR? These people would be just in the dark as your explanation. You have made yourself a “messiah” to proclaim your false understanding and your false teaching with anything related to the Watchtower. People that have no business being part of an organization, it clearly feels disdain for.

You and your kind have lost the right to criticize the Watchtower as a faithful member. Knowing Butler was an Ex-JW from other sites, proves how far people are willing to go to make others think they have a sad story to tell and have a legitimate grievance, even though it took him long enough to finally come out with the truth.

He knows where he stands before God and is not a hypocrite, or at least not now that he admits it. Where does that leave some of you? Especially those that are no longer in good standing with the Org.

Therefore, with the presentation offered by JWinsider proves one thing, distortion of facts, just like Raymond, since he is offering no scriptural proof, just overdrawn conclusions on what he personally thinks the Watchtower publications are conveying.

 

 

 

 

Sorry Felix I have no idea whom your first paragraph was aimed at but the bit about " Knowing Butler was an Ex-JW from other sites,  " has confused me totally. Can you name the other sites that you think you know me from ? 

But once again I read more aggression. It does not bring any on us closer to God or Christ. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. 

Top Cat O’Malihan said that I didn’t do dates. That is only partly true. I don’t do them, true, but it is only because I have already pronounced the final word:

A post of years ago:

............

From our readers:

 

Dear Tom Sheepandgoats:

How can I figure when the world will end?

Sincere Person

 

Dear Sincere Person:

The only thing you're sincere about is saving your skin! Nevertheless, here's how you do it.

You start with the well-known verse in Mathew:

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.     Matt 24:36

Got it? Nobody knows the day and the hour. While, at first glance, that might seem unhelpful for your calculation, in reality it is the key to success! The method is straightforward. Since no one knows the day and the hour, that means if anyone claims a certain date for the end of the world, that's not it. To visualize how the method works, start with a calendar. 

 
 

Now, let's consider an example. May 21st. Say someone declares this day to be the end of the world. Since he knows it to be true, that's not it. On your calendar, you cross out May 21. Cross it out, not in pencil, but with a permanent marker. That way, no atheist can later erase it, trying to confuse you or your pets.

 

 

Repeat the process. Whenever you come upon a day someone just knows is the day and the hour, cross out that day. With a bit of research, you ought to eventually have a calendar looking like this.

 

 

There! That's all there is to it. You'll cross out all days except one. That's the day! Be ready.

  

I can hear the cynics, already. “Hold on a minute, Sheepandgoats!  You can't tell me that every day of the calendar is taken. There may be a lot of nutcakes, but surely not so many as to fill up every day on the calendar!” 

On the surface, it seems a valid objection, but in reality, it just reveals laziness on your part. I admit, if you just count nutcakes predicting the day and hour, you'll fall short. You must count more than just the nutcakes. You must also count the screwballs, the cranks, the fruitcakes, the starry-eyed lunatics, the wolflike false prophets, the round-the-bend idiots, the maniacal crackpots, the self-aggrandizing demented, the certifiable crazies, the raving beserk, the unhinged wackos, and the moonstruck schizos. It's a little work, I admit, but it's not rocket science. If you count all these characters, you easily eliminate the wrong days, leaving only the truth to assert itself!

Now, since I do nothing but think about God all day long, I've worked through all this, and I know the date. But, if I really knew the date, that wouldn't be the date, would it? So I don't know. I've only been able to narrow it down to three possibilities. There are only three days throughout time that no one else has claimed. Thus we can see the breathtaking splendor of the heavenly plan. Three things are proven:

1. God is a trinity.
2. He works in mysterious ways.
3. Matt 24:36 holds. You can't tell the day and the hour; your best shot is a 33% chance.

 

Now, should we give Mr Camping some credit? It's not easy to do. I agonize over it. His formula, seven 1000-year days after the flood, seems awfully simplistic. He's throwing everyone in a tizzy over that? Haven't I said before I don't do floods? If I met him, I'm not at all sure I would like him. Besides, he buys into all the typical hash of trinity and hellfire, doesn't he? Don't get me started on this rapture stuff. And what's to say about those folk who buy into his prophesies? Why weren't they wearing ties as they announced the end? So, I suppose, not being on board, I run the risk of going to hell. Maybe if I say kind words, I will go to a softer version of hell...some place with merely an abominable climate, like here in Rochester, which I am used to. At any rate, it seems worth the effort. So....

Harold Camping, too, was aware of “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” He didn't just blow it off as if it never existed. He worked around it in a very clever way. He said that verse related only to that specific period of time in which it was written, not now! Now all the Trinitarians laugh at such a silly explanation, yet they blunder as greatly regarding the second part of the verse: "...no man knows the day and hour, nor does the Son, but the Father does!" Still, they would have me believe that the Son and the Father are the same!

Look, Camping stuck his neck out and looked ridiculous, he messed up a lot of people, but at least he is in the spirit ofJesus admonition to “keep on the watch.” I'll give him credit for that, if no more. I mean, I've heard atheists and skeptics carry on about how can people be so credulous to buy into end-time obsessions. I'll tell you how. You need look no further than Newsweek, which lists calamities on the front cover of it's “Apocalyse Now” edition, before tearing their hair out with “What the #@%!" is Next?! So at least Camping errs in furthering a Bible theme, that there will be an end of this system of things. I mean, if the ridicule of him comes from those steamed over his goofball formula, or his presumption of nailing the day and hour, well and good. But if it comes from those mocking the very notion that one day God will intervene in world affairs so that the earth does not end up totally ruined.....well....I hate to pick sides. I'm not sure which is the worse.

Years ago I called on some science person who had read the book Life – How Did it Get Here; by Evolution or by Creation. In the course of discussion, he asked what difference did it make. Who cared? Either way, evolution or creation, we're here. I answered that if God was responsible for bringing about earth and the life on it, then he just might have some purpose for it, and might not stand idly by while human mismanagement destroyed it. But if evolution was responsible for all, then if there was any hope for earth's future, it lay with humans. And they weren't doing so well, then or now. The man's wife, who up to that time had had little to say, remarked 'that's a good point.' 

Well......alright already Sheepandgoats. You say there's three possibilities? Spill. What are they? Not so fast! It'll cost ya. Look, Camping and everyone else draws a salary for what they do. What should I and Jehovah's Witnesses be the only ones not to cash in? Contact me and we'll talk. Do you want to be ready for the big day or don't you?

************************

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Top Cat O’Malihan said that I didn’t do dates. That is only partly true. I don’t do them, true, but it is only because I have already pronounced the final word:

A post of years ago:

............

From our readers:

 

Dear Tom Sheepandgoats:

How can I figure when the world will end?

Sincere Person

 

Dear Sincere Person:

The only thing you're sincere about is saving your skin! Nevertheless, here's how you do it.

You start with the well-known verse in Mathew:

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.     Matt 24:36

Got it? Nobody knows the day and the hour. While, at first glance, that might seem unhelpful for your calculation, in reality it is the key to success! The method is straightforward. Since no one knows the day and the hour, that means if anyone claims a certain date for the end of the world, that's not it. To visualize how the method works, start with a calendar. 

 
 

Now, let's consider an example. May 21st. Say someone declares this day to be the end of the world. Since he knows it to be true, that's not it. On your calendar, you cross out May 21. Cross it out, not in pencil, but with a permanent marker. That way, no atheist can later erase it, trying to confuse you or your pets.

 

 

Repeat the process. Whenever you come upon a day someone just knows is the day and the hour, cross out that day. With a bit of research, you ought to eventually have a calendar looking like this.

 

 

There! That's all there is to it. You'll cross out all days except one. That's the day! Be ready.

  

I can hear the cynics, already. “Hold on a minute, Sheepandgoats!  You can't tell me that every day of the calendar is taken. There may be a lot of nutcakes, but surely not so many as to fill up every day on the calendar!” 

On the surface, it seems a valid objection, but in reality, it just reveals laziness on your part. I admit, if you just count nutcakes predicting the day and hour, you'll fall short. You must count more than just the nutcakes. You must also count the screwballs, the cranks, the fruitcakes, the starry-eyed lunatics, the wolflike false prophets, the round-the-bend idiots, the maniacal crackpots, the self-aggrandizing demented, the certifiable crazies, the raving beserk, the unhinged wackos, and the moonstruck schizos. It's a little work, I admit, but it's not rocket science. If you count all these characters, you easily eliminate the wrong days, leaving only the truth to assert itself!

Now, since I do nothing but think about God all day long, I've worked through all this, and I know the date. But, if I really knew the date, that wouldn't be the date, would it? So I don't know. I've only been able to narrow it down to three possibilities. There are only three days throughout time that no one else has claimed. Thus we can see the breathtaking splendor of the heavenly plan. Three things are proven:

1. God is a trinity.
2. He works in mysterious ways.
3. Matt 24:36 holds. You can't tell the day and the hour; your best shot is a 33% chance.

 

Now, should we give Mr Camping some credit? It's not easy to do. I agonize over it. His formula, seven 1000-year days after the flood, seems awfully simplistic. He's throwing everyone in a tizzy over that? Haven't I said before I don't do floods? If I met him, I'm not at all sure I would like him. Besides, he buys into all the typical hash of trinity and hellfire, doesn't he? Don't get me started on this rapture stuff. And what's to say about those folk who buy into his prophesies? Why weren't they wearing ties as they announced the end? So, I suppose, not being on board, I run the risk of going to hell. Maybe if I say kind words, I will go to a softer version of hell...some place with merely an abominable climate, like here in Rochester, which I am used to. At any rate, it seems worth the effort. So....

Harold Camping, too, was aware of “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” He didn't just blow it off as if it never existed. He worked around it in a very clever way. He said that verse related only to that specific period of time in which it was written, not now! Now all the Trinitarians laugh at such a silly explanation, yet they blunder as greatly regarding the second part of the verse: "...no man knows the day and hour, nor does the Son, but the Father does!" Still, they would have me believe that the Son and the Father are the same!

Look, Camping stuck his neck out and looked ridiculous, he messed up a lot of people, but at least he is in the spirit ofJesus admonition to “keep on the watch.” I'll give him credit for that, if no more. I mean, I've heard atheists and skeptics carry on about how can people be so credulous to buy into end-time obsessions. I'll tell you how. You need look no further than Newsweek, which lists calamities on the front cover of it's “Apocalyse Now” edition, before tearing their hair out with “What the #@%!" is Next?! So at least Camping errs in furthering a Bible theme, that there will be an end of this system of things. I mean, if the ridicule of him comes from those steamed over his goofball formula, or his presumption of nailing the day and hour, well and good. But if it comes from those mocking the very notion that one day God will intervene in world affairs so that the earth does not end up totally ruined.....well....I hate to pick sides. I'm not sure which is the worse.

Years ago I called on some science person who had read the book Life – How Did it Get Here; by Evolution or by Creation. In the course of discussion, he asked what difference did it make. Who cared? Either way, evolution or creation, we're here. I answered that if God was responsible for bringing about earth and the life on it, then he just might have some purpose for it, and might not stand idly by while human mismanagement destroyed it. But if evolution was responsible for all, then if there was any hope for earth's future, it lay with humans. And they weren't doing so well, then or now. The man's wife, who up to that time had had little to say, remarked 'that's a good point.' 

Well......alright already Sheepandgoats. You say there's three possibilities? Spill. What are they? Not so fast! It'll cost ya. Look, Camping and everyone else draws a salary for what they do. What should I and Jehovah's Witnesses be the only ones not to cash in? Contact me and we'll talk. Do you want to be ready for the big day or don't you?

************************

 

 

You are barking mad Tom.