Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

[TrueTomHarley]

5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are barking mad Tom. 

 

NOW you’ve got it.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

You and your kind have lost the right to criticize the Watchtower as a faithful member.

Mr Felix.

John Butler and other ex-JW people are Gained their right to speak openly about WT (to share Critical Thoughts) with a Day of Personal Awaking and with a Day of leaving JW community !! 

I have to remind You how every "faithful member" aka JW member does not have and will never have any "Right", Permission and Free Will  to "criticize" WT. Because of reasons:

1) he/she is "faithful member",

2) JW member will be disciplined if would dare to "criticize" or to put complain about WT,

3) hierarchical structure and Doctrines in WT gives no space for "criticizing" or for Critical Thoughts.

 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Unless you are going to argue like JWinsider with wordplay with the phrase " The Herald of Christ Presence " as it's also known by.

Not really the point I was making. I advised an "ambiguity"check because I thought the abbreviation you used for this journal to be a little unfortunate given the context of the discussion. I am not going to be any more specific.

14 hours ago, FelixCA said:

The Herald of Christ Presence is the longest running BS magazine

ambiguity

Dictionary result for ambiguity

/ambɪˈɡjuːɪti/

noun

 

1. the quality of being open to more than one interpretation; inexactness.

   "we can detect no ambiguity in this section of the Act"

   synonyms:

   ambivalence, equivocation; More

[FelixCA]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Dear Sincere Person:

The only thing you're sincere about is saving your skin! Nevertheless, here's how you do it.

You start with the well-known verse in Mathew:

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.     Matt 24:36

That’s Good Tom. You follow the same pattern of logic as the Watchtower. They don’t specifically state anyone given time. The most they will do is in keeping with “readiness at any hour” by Mark 13:33, and Matthew 24:42.

No different from the “the parables of the ten virgins” described by the Bible Student era with Matthew 25:13

Keeping a watch and staying alert with the signs of the times keep faithful servant alert and ready for the unknown. 1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43, Revelation 16:15 Does that mean living in fear, only foolish people would suggest that. Is it referring to our personal lives, or is scripture referring to something other than what might happen within a generation, or is it something more personal like staying awake and being alert with our spirituality. Something that will have a more profound impact even after death.

The Watchtower has shown the closeness each generation gets to the conclusion of this old system. Unfavorable people like to think there are hidden messages. That, of course, is concocted in their own minds.

 

[FelixCA]

13 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

I thought the abbreviation you used for this journal to be a little unfortunate given the context of the discussion.

I believe JWinsider is Bible Student bashing. How is that not part of the discussion, when the inference is there? Can I be more specific? 

[FelixCA]

19 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

John Butler and other ex-JW people are Gained their right to speak openly about WT (to share Critical Thoughts) with a Day of Personal Awaking and with a Day of leaving JW community !! 

I have to remind You how every "faithful member" aka JW member does not have and will never have any "Right", Permission and Free Will  to "criticize" WT. Because of reasons:

This is why, I have every right to call you for what you are, and what you stand for. I believe that wasn't always the case here. Maybe it still isn't if I get erased along with my comments.

One being, a false perception you have about JW members and free will. God gives us free will as NOT to cause strife or divisions among the brotherhood. Who are you to speak against God's inspired words?

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. Yet you’re a creature of habit to keep bringing up the past as though it has somehow been a mistake.

I gave two reasons why it does matter. Like TTH I don't do dates. There have been several persons who came on the forum to advertise their predictive prowess with prophecy. I think the same thing about all of them. I think it's both dangerous and un-Christian to do dates.

2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

It’s your personal opinion that the Watchtower has erred.

It's not my personal opinion. It's a fact. The Watchtower has claimed that they erred on this matter. So if they didn't err, then they erred in claiming that they had erred.

2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

You have made yourself a “messiah” to proclaim your false understanding and your false teaching with anything related to the Watchtower.

You have a much overblown opinion of my opinions.

2 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Therefore, with the presentation offered by JWinsider proves one thing, distortion of facts, just like Raymond, since he is offering no scriptural proof, just overdrawn conclusions on what he personally thinks the Watchtower publications are conveying.

There could be some truth in that. This is why I am always happy to have any supposed "facts" checked. It's a good reminder that even when I quote the Bible or the Watchtower publications or any reference work, I am still presenting an opinion overall as I might not understand the actual meaning of what I'm quoting. This is true no matter how much it might look like facts, and no matter that it makes use of actual facts. Based on the nature of many of the topics that I choose to discuss, I should probably remind everyone, again, that I only consider my posts to be my opinion about things. And often it's just an opinion about someone else's opinion. I might express my opinions strongly when I have no doubt about it for myself, but this doesn't mean that anyone else needs to take my opinion so seriously.

So, yes, these are conclusions on what I personally think the Watchtower publications are conveying. You are correct.

I can't say that I know exactly what an "overdrawn" conclusion is. It's an expression I had never heard until a conversation with Allen Smith, but I never asked him what it meant. Perhaps you can tell me. If not, perhaps BillyTheKid could tell me, since he just used the expression less than two months ago.

On 12/19/2018 at 3:02 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

So, the library card being scrutinized by opposers is a failed attempt to justify an overdrawn conclusion.

 

[JW Insider]

46 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

I believe JWinsider is Bible Student bashing. How is that not part of the discussion, when the inference is there? Can I be more specific?

I certainly hope you can be more specific. Otherwise, your accusation is just another empty claim.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

They don’t specifically state anyone given time. The most they will do is in keeping with “readiness at any hour” by Mark 13:33, and Matthew 24:42.    No different from the “the parables of the ten virgins” described by the Bible Student era with Matthew 25:13

FelixCA, Just in case anyone gets the impression that this is true, it might be interesting to look at what the Watch Tower publications said, which makes me question your claim. It sounds like you are claiming that the Watch Tower publications do not state any one given time, and this is no different from the way the "parable of the ten virgins" was described in the Bible Student era. Feel free to correct me if it is wrong. It's not too far off topic. It even references the 6,000 years from Adam and its relationship to the beginning of the Millennium, etc.

As I understand it, the Watch Tower publications initially thought that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins was based on the criteria that the foolish virgins had foolishly given up on chronology after the Great Disappointment of 1844. A "Midnight Cry" went out at some point in the "night" between 1844 and 1874, initially thought to be at the midpoint, around 1859, when Nelson Barbour first recognized and thereafter declared that William Miller had been off by 30 years. The lamps of the virgins had to burn for another 30 years. But the foolish virgins who gave up on chronology had let their lamps run out of oil, which was obvious because they wouldn't believe in 1874.

It seems to me that the parable was considerd to be all about the time period from 1874 to 1881, the seven years period before the "door was shut" on October 3rd, 1881. (A door of "mercy" could still be open, even if the full number of Christ's Bride would have been chosen by October 3rd 1881.)

I'll quote from one of a few articles on the topic from the Bible Student era Watch Tower magazines. The following, until the end of the post, is from the October 1881 Watch Tower (ZWT), beginning on page 288:

"AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT."

. . . The parable of "The Ten Virgins" (Matt. 25) . . .  "Then shall the kingdom of heaven (church) be likened unto ten virgins which took their lamps (Bibles) and went forth to meet the Bridegroom" (i.e.,) they went forth or separated themselves because of their belief that the Bridegroom, Jesus, was about to come.

While we are neither "Millerites" nor "Adventists," yet we believe that this much of this parable met its fulfillment in 1843 and 1844, when William Miller and others, Bible in hand, walked out by faith on its statements, expecting Jesus at that time. . . .

The disappointment of that company of Christians (which was composed of many of the best Christians from all denominations) all are well aware of, but it was foretold in the parable: "While the Bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept." As a general arousing of the church to the investigation of God's Word had attended the preaching of Mr. Miller, and the Word was more studied than ever before, especially the Prophecies, so when his calculations seemed to end in such bitter disappointment, a spirit of drowsiness followed; some slumbered, some slept . . . .

The next important step of the parable (verse 6) is the midnight cry. The night of the parable was the time during which the disappointment lasted and the sleeping occurred, and was to end with joy in the morning, when, the tarrying being ended, the Bridegroom would be present.

As the former movement in the parable had been represented by Miller and others, so to this second movement we give a similar application. A brother,  B[arbour]_ of Rochester, was, we believe, the chosen vessel of God through whom the "Midnight Cry" issued to the sleeping virgins of Christ, announcing a discrepancy of thirty years in some of Miller's calculations, and giving a rearrangement of the same argument (and some additional), proving that the night of the parable was thirty years long, and that the morning was in 1873, and the Bridegroom due in that morning in 1874.

We do not here give the time, arguments or proofs. They are familiar to many, and can be had in more convenient shape. We merely notice here that the Bible chronology, first dug from Scripture by Bowen, of England, which shows clearly and positively that the 6,000 years from Adam ended in 1873, and consequently that there the morning of the Millennial day (the seventh thousand) began, in which a variety of things are due. The establishment of the kingdom of Christ, the binding of Satan, the restitution of all things, and the blessing of all the families of the earth, are all due. And if all these things are due during this thousand years which commenced in 1873, surely one of the first things due and on which the others all depend, is the coming of the Bridegroom, who must first exalt his church [establish his kingdom] before it can bless, restore or bind.

Bro. B[arbour]_____ first began to preach the message, and soon started a paper, which he appropriately called "The Midnight Cry," the circulation of which soon ran up to 15,000 copies a month, and served to arouse many of the drowsy to a fresh examination and trimming of their lamps. These began again to search the Scriptures for the time of the Bridegroom's coming.

But the disappointment had served an intended purpose in casting a reproach on the subject of "time," and the prudent ones had reached the worldly-wise conclusion that having been disappointed once and consequently had the finger of scorn pointed at them, they would be more prudent in future, and not expose themselves to contempt; so there was a division of the company; some could see it and others could not. ("Thou hast hid these things from the (worldly) wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.") Some rejoiced in the midnight message that the Bridegroom was due in 1874, and were able to find the evidences in the light of their lamps; others admitted that though Scripture contained a great deal of "time," yet they were so fearful and prudent that their lamps would give no light. Thus they said: "Our lamps are gone out." Thus one separation took place.

When 1874 came and there was no outward sign of Jesus in the literal clouds and in a fleshly form, there was a general re-examination of all the arguments upon which the "Midnight Cry" was made. And when no fault or flaw could be found, it led to the critical examination of the Scriptures which seem to bear on the manner of Christ's coming, and it was soon discovered that the expectation of Jesus in the flesh at the second advent was the mistake; that the human nature had been taken for the purpose of giving a ransom for humanity, and that the human nature remains a sacrifice forever; that Jesus, though put to death in the flesh, was quickened or made alive in spirit—Sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body, &c., and that all spiritual bodies can be present unseen. . . .

It was evident, then, that though the manner in which they had expected Jesus was in error, yet the time, as indicated by the "Midnight Cry," was correct, and that the Bridegroom came in the Autumn of 1874, and he appeared to the eyes of faith—seen by the light of the lamp—the Word. Afterward it was seen that the thirty years of tarrying between 1844 and 1874 was the exact parallel to the thirty years of tarrying at the first advent, from the time the wise men visited the babe until Jesus stood on Jordan and was anointed with the Holy Ghost for his work, at thirty years of age. (Acts 10:38.) . . .

To return to the parable. If these movements were of God, and if Bros. Miller and B__________ were his instruments, then that "Midnight Cry," based on the prophetic and other statements and evidences, was correct, and the "Bridegroom came" in 1874. We believe that Midnight Cry was of God, and was fulfilled by the Bridegroom's coming, not because Bros. Miller and B__________ claimed it, but because the Word of God supports it.

"How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word."

. . . The going in, like all other features of the parable, is a work of time, and we understand that it has been in progress during the seven years from 1874. . . .

The seven years which ended October 3d, 1881, were years of favor during the presence, that of the living generation all of readiness of heart might become members of the little flock and enter into the joys of our Lord's presence. If our application of Scripture be correct, the favor has now ended, and in the language of the parable, "the door was shut"; and to those who have never fully consecrated and sacrificed self to God, we cannot any longer hold out the great prize of our high calling, viz.: to be members of the Bride of Christ, joint heirs of Glory, Honor and Immortality.

[FelixCA]

That’s where I got it from. I guess that makes me space merchant for using “that being said” or that said. You are definitely showing signs of a mental breakdown. Just don’t jump off the tower to have people blame the Watchtower for your instability.

Especially when you first suggest it doesn’t matter, then it does matter. Coherency is lacking. Spend time with Butler, just maybe he can knock some of the realism back into your life. But don’t worry, I don’t buy into anything you have posted as fact. It’s your perception of fact. It’s the perception of what some will agree with you, is fact. The Watchtower published a book of errors to appease those harden critics that believe as you do. It is demonstrating how a publication can be taken out of context, as it's done here with the many distortions.

The “Clarification of Our Beliefs” Does not constitute what you are offering.

 

THE PURPOSE OF THIS PUBLICATION

“Jehovah God urges his people to “keep searching” for understanding and discernment as though they were looking for “hidden treasures.” (Prov. 2: 1-5) This means that we need to exert ourselves in searching for answers to our Bible questions and in finding help for our personal concerns in life.

This Research Guide for Jehovah’s Witnesses is designed to assist you in your search.”

 

Therefore, the only thing dangerous and un-Christian is people like yourself. What did TTH say, in the end, you adhere and support those in charge? That's funny, in what universe. 😁

[JW Insider]

52 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

You are definitely showing signs of a mental breakdown.

LOL. I got so confused when both TTH and I used the word "shrill" within a couple days of each other. I started thinking maybe Allen Smith was right after all when he used to say I was the same person as TTH, among several others. I think Allen could have tried to convince me that it was just him and me running the entire forum.

52 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Especially when you first suggest it doesn’t matter, then it does matter.

I never said it doesn't matter. You either forgot what I said, or made it up, or I forgot what I said. Or I could have said something you misunderstood. Even so, I accept that it matters very much to me that we don't "do dates." But I would only impose this on myself, I don't think it matters so much that I should impose my view on others in the congregation. But I'm happy to present how much it matters to me if called upon to do so.

52 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

The Watchtower published a book of errors to appease those harden critics that believe as you do. It is demonstrating how a publication can be taken out of context, as it's done here with the many distortions.     The “Clarification of Our Beliefs” Does not constitute what you are offering.

The "Clarification of Our Beliefs" does not have anything to do with what I was referring to. I was referring to specific admissions of past errors about dates in several other specific places in the Watch Tower publications. In addition, I was also referring to specific things that the Watchtower admitted can be dangerous and un-Christian, including 'serving with a date in mind.'

[JOHN BUTLER]

Are you two still going on ? And my name keeps getting mentioned too  

Yes TTH is a GB's man and a JW Org's man.  Does he say "support those in charge " ?  Who and in charge of what ?

They can't be in charge of God or Jesus Christ, and they shouldn't be in charge of the Anointed. 

That only leaves them being in charge of an Organisation. The Pope is in charge of an organisation too, doesn't make him right does it ?