Apostles, Judas, GB, Raymond, Satan, Holy Spirit

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Forgive me for saying so, John, but I think you have a basic disconnect with the way that God operates towards humans.

"the way that God operates towards humans"

Few of you (or us :)))) maybe ..... and  GB undoubtedly, in full measure,.....know how god operates :))))

Amazing how we are ready to make interesting, big, loud claims: We know .....and than continue to talking about so many things we know for sure how, when, why ...... 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And that information was lies

It is not a lie. It is a notion. You can argue it back and forth as a preferred or not preferred idea, but not to disprove it or prove it. You are free to believe or disbelieve if you wish. People will always come unstuck of course if they stand firm on theoretical notions. This is how erroneous dogma develops.

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 hours ago, Outta Here said:

It is not a lie. It is a notion. You can argue it back and forth as a preferred or not preferred idea, but not to disprove it or prove it. You are free to believe or disbelieve if you wish. People will always come unstuck of course if they stand firm on theoretical notions. This is how erroneous dogma develops.

Ok so the GB and JW  org is run on notions. 

notion

Dictionary result for notion

/ˈnəʊʃ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a conception of or belief about something.

   "children have different notions about the roles of their parents"

   synonyms:

   idea, belief, concept, conception, conviction, opinion, view, thought, impression, image, perception, mental picture; More

2. 2.

   an impulse or desire, especially one of a whimsical kind.

   "she had a notion to ring her friend at work"

   synonyms:

   impulse, inclination, whim, desire, wish, fancy, caprice, whimsy "you can't expect us to fire any of our staff just because you get a notion to come back"

    

   The second explanation seems to fit the GB.

    

[FelixCA]

I have no idea where some of you learned the truth as prescribed by the Watchtower. I think TTH friend and distorter of the truth to gain favor by such people as Butler isn’t reason enough to twist the publications of the Watchtower to sway an erroneous interpretation by that individual.

It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8. Now I can understand someone like TTH would agree with such misguided logic, it would, however, be wrong.

Since it’s a totally different understanding. This person JWinsider has gone beyond what the Watchtower is actually saying. Perhaps this individual is stuck in the same ideology as his mentor Raymond.

That is another way of attempting to disprove 1975. An erred perception but understandable. Since number 7 is a pivotal number in Biblical determination. Anyone with sense would surmise Peter was symbolically referring to what he meant with a 1000 years.

Therefore, the Watchtower used that same symbolism to interject the date 1975 as being the end of the 6^th day of man's existence, not creation.

That is something the Watchtower does relate to. So, I don’t see where the confusion would be, other than being man-made (conspiracy).

*** w75 10/1 p. 581 The End of 6,000 Years of Man-Rule Approaches—What Has Been Accomplished? ***

Panoramic Survey

This 6,000-year period of man’s existence was early marked by the loss of paradise. Since then, frustrated mankind has tried many kinds of government in an effort to regain at least some form of material paradise. But what has been accomplished? The result is world confusion. Mankind faces ruination, just as Jesus foretold concerning our day: “On the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out . . . while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.” But God’s Word holds forth hope!—Luke 21:25, 26.

For as much as I make every effort to use small common words so people like Butler can understand, I see I continue to fail to communicate, other than those areas where my words are twisted.

That’s just dishonest. However, I do find it fascinating and funny how people want to distort the Watchtower’s understanding to coincide with apostate views. For this reason, I will no longer interact with certain people here anymore. Anyone wanting to seek knowledge with wisdom will find the Watchtower has related that message of the 6th day of man's existence, since before 1950. If, 1975 marked the day of rest for God, entering the 7th day. Humanity has proven how the God of this world has indulged himself since then to corrupt this world beyond comparison before 1975. Now are there those that are blind to what is before them?

 

[TrueTomHarley]

6 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8. Now I can understand someone like TTH would agree with such misguided logic, 

No you can’t.

TTH does not agree with it. He has picked up on the aeons and epochs of that recent Watchtower that JWI may have misattributed to someone else. At any rate, I refered to it, too, and I take both words to mean long periods of indeterminate length, the first encompassing the second, and the ‘beginning’ of Genesis 1:1 being as long as anyone wants it to be.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The second explanation seems to fit the GB.

Likely both....as they do all men.

Interestingly, two consecutive serious programs were shown on National TV tonight. The first stated that the Bible said the earth was created 6000 years ago, the second stated that the Bible said the earth was created in 6 days. Well, the notions fly thick and fast wherever you care to turn. Here, it seems, is no exception.

[FelixCA]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

TTH does not agree with it. He has picked up on the aeons and epochs of that recent Watchtower that JWI may have misattributed to someone else. At any rate, I refered to it, too, and I take both words to mean long periods of indeterminate length, the first encompassing the second, and the ‘beginning’ of Genesis 1:1 being as long as anyone wants it to be.

Good, then your not a creationist. What would the inference be with that nonsense that is taken out of context with the Watchtower 1968? Nothing more than an interpretation of man's existence starting from 4026B.C. that ends in 2975AD. Does this mean God is resting after 1975? Did Jesus not do miracles in the Sabbath?  The watchtower started a chart with the phrase "CHART OF DATES FROM MAN’S CREATION TO 7000 A.M." To some, it might be seen as a type o,  just like the thousands of type-o's, there are in the Watchtower publications. However, the implied is from Creation that, as you state has an infinite number through man's existence 7000 A.M. Therefore, that doesn't prove a darn thing. There is still a separation to those that don't distort the publication. if the bible students understood to a certain extent, it should have never been that difficult for faithful witnesses.

"The length of the day of creation is a question which heretofore no one has been able satisfactorily to answer. Many Bible students think that because Peter says "One day is with the Lord as a thousand years" that each day of creation must be of that duration. Peter however was speaking of the period between the day of creation and the day of the Lord; his language can fully apply, only to that period; and is without doubt very strong inferential proof of the theory that the period from the dominion of the first Adam to that of the second will be six thousand years, to be followed by the "Millennium" or the seventh thousand as the antitype of the Jewish Sabbath."

By the way, God rested after creation as cited in Genesis. That doesn't mean God would rest within Man's existence.

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8.

As I believe I made clear, the Watchtower has never presented anything like a belief that the 6 creative days are the same as the 1000 years. So this idea should cause you no worries, since no one said it, and no one implied it. So hopefully you can rest a little better now. 

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Since it’s a totally different understanding. This person JWinsider has gone beyond what the Watchtower is actually saying.

This reminds me of some of the logical problems we just looked at, where something is admitted to be probable or possible in some of our prior publications, but then within the space of a sentence or two, what initially "appeared" to be true, actually becomes "totally" true, and a supposedly solid conclusion is drawn from the false premise. 

You have made several other mistakes just like this, so that a reasonable person would likely have already dismissed many of those conclusions you drew about R.Franz, too. And if you really thought that what 'this person' was saying was the false idea that only you had brought up, then I think that a reasonable people would also not be able to automatically trust conclusions you derived elsewhere from reading the Watchtower, reading anything written by R.Franz, or perhaps even other people on this forum. When a person needs to resort to making up things out of thin air as you apparently just did above, then you also lose credibility when it comes to your stories and anecdotes that reveal supposedly hidden personality traits that no one else who knew these people for years has ever reported before today.

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

That is another way of attempting to disprove 1975.

To disprove what about 1975? 1975 could still be the end of 6,000 years of man's existence, and since the Bible puts no particular significance on 6,000 years, it could also have been the same year Eve was created, just as the Watchtower once said (that Eve too had also been created that same year in 4026 B.C.E.). I fail to see what this might DISPROVE about 1975, that wasn't already disproved by the Watchtower articles.

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

An erred perception but understandable. Since number 7 is a pivotal number in Biblical determination. Anyone with sense would surmise Peter was symbolically referring to what he meant with a 1000 years.

Anyone should realize what Peter was saying from the very context of these words: that Jehovah's thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are higher than our ways, and that his determination of the times and seasons will always be in his own jurisdiction, not ours. We shouldn't be toying with chronology if we think it can somehow be the key to becoming prepared for something that will come as a thief in the night. Chronology will never be the key to helping us become the kind of persons we ought to be while we await the end of this system. If anything, it would much more likely be a detriment to our true Christian conduct. We might be motivated by a time or season instead of by love for Jehovah, his patience, and of love for our neighbor.

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Therefore, the Watchtower used that same symbolism to interject the date 1975 as being the end of the 6^th day of man's existence, not creation.

That's absolutely correct. The Watchtower said there might be up to a two-year gap between the end of the 6,000 years of "man's creation" and the end of 6,000 years of "creation." (Both Adam and Eve.) Of course, at one point the Watchtower did actually slip up and say that Eve was also created in 4026, the same year as Adam. That was another example of the premise being built up with words like "apparently," "evidently," and "possibly" and then, within a few sentences, what was possible became supposedly demonstrable, declarative and dogmatic.

But even this slip-up that said Eve was also born in 4026, was never given as a guarantee that the Millennium would begin that same year. At that point, we only taught that it would be "appropriate" for God to act that year. The time period for the beginning of the Millennium was still relegated to the:

• entire decade of the 1970's,
• then by the end of the 20th century,
• then by the end of the lifespans of currently anointed persons whose anointing overlapped with persons in an earlier group of anointed persons who saw the sign in 1914 and understood what it meant. 

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

However, I do find it fascinating and funny how people want to distort the Watchtower’s understanding to coincide with apostate views.

Rather than distort, we should want to see the truth and make sure that it keeps us humble enough to avoid further error. Israel was humbled by failures, too. That didn't automatically mean they were no longer God's people. It just meant that what befell them should be used as examples to learn from. The people that make up spiritual Israel are also human, and will also fail many times. We can learn from these examples to improve, and not make the same mistakes over and over again. We can also show all potentially interested persons that we are not so cult-like that we would defend what is wrong. We would not want to hang onto false reasoning that might blind us to what is right. This is one way that even apostate views might help us to improve:

• (1 Corinthians 11:19) 19 For there will certainly also be sects among you, so that those of you who are approved may also become evident.

9 hours ago, FelixCA said:

For this reason, I will no longer interact with certain people here anymore.

In all seriousness, I saw that reaction coming as soon as I pointed out some of the more obvious errors you had recently made here.  For some reason, I have never seen you simply acknowledge an error, or even try to address one. Instead, you seem to repeatedly just "lash out" with new diversions you appear to just make up. I still hope to show that most Witnesses have much credibility and honesty. It's true I point out errors from our past, and some of these still effect traditional doctrines of the present, but more and more of these have been humbly acknowledged. From those taking the lead, to those of us in the "rank and file" we have made great strides in humility and made great improvements over those days of so much illogical dogmatism. We should be able to compare the brighter present with some of the actual darkness of the past. This exercise will highlight the ways in which the "dross" is filtered to keep making the gold more and more refined. I'm not trying to make fun of the dross, but I'm surprised and find it disappointing when someone thinks it necessary to keep defending the dross.

[JW Insider]

30 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

By the way, God rested after creation as cited in Genesis. That doesn't mean God would rest within Man's existence.

The same 2011 Watchtower article, pointed out earlier, makes some good points on this topic, note how the footnote can also be appied:

*** w11 7/15 p. 24 par. 3 God’s Rest—What Is It? ***
First, consider Jesus’ words to opposers who criticized him for healing on the Sabbath, which they construed as a form of work. The Lord said to them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” (John 5:16, 17) What was the point? Jesus was being accused of working on the Sabbath. His reply: “My Father has kept working” answered that charge. In effect, Jesus was saying to his critics: ‘My Father and I are engaged in the same type of work. Since my Father has kept working during his millenniums-long Sabbath, it is quite permissible for me to keep working, even on the Sabbath.’ Thus, Jesus implied that as regards the earth, God’s great Sabbath day of rest, the seventh day, had not ended in his day.

[Footnotes]
The priests and Levites performed work on the Sabbath in connection with the temple and ‘remained guiltless.’ As the high priest of God’s great spiritual temple, Jesus could also carry out his spiritual assignment without fear of violating the Sabbath.—Matt. 12:5, 6.

 

[JW Insider]

33 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Peter however was speaking of the period between the day of creation and the day of the Lord; his language can fully apply, only to that period; and is without doubt very strong inferential proof of the theory that the period from the dominion of the first Adam to that of the second will be six thousand years, to be followed by the "Millennium" or the seventh thousand as the antitype of the Jewish Sabbath."

The latter part of your theory is still based on trying to defend a chronology system that attempts to put the times and the seasons in our own jurisdiction. It could be dangerous to our Christianity besides being presumptuous. Also, the premise that Peter was speaking about the period between the day of creation and the day of the Lord is without foundation.

[Top Cat O’Malihan]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What would the inference be with that nonsense that is taken out of context with the Watchtower 1968? Nothing more than an interpretation of man's existence starting from 4026B.C. that ends in 2975AD. Does this mean God is resting after 1975?

TTH don’t do dates, cat. He don’t go there.

Cat to cat, I’m telling ya.

That goes for you, too, @Outta Here. You guys itching for a cat fight?

[FelixCA]

24 minutes ago, Top Cat O’Malihan said:

TTH don’t do dates, cat. He don’t go there.

Cat to cat, I’m telling ya.

That goes for you, too, @Outta Here. You guys itching for a cat fight?

Far from it. I’m busy collecting the Bible Student publications to make it into a DVD library. Halfway there. It’s all on pdf. At least from 1879-2013 The Herald of Christ Presence is the longest running BS magazine, up to 2019 and running. Which I will incorporate as an ongoing publication.

 

Even though they don’t favor the Watchtower doctrine after 1916, they don’t stab each other in the back as some do within the Watchtower Brotherhood. Case in point, having to say, you guys itching for a catfight. Best illustration ever, LOL! 😉