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The 144k and the GB...gnostics?


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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The key tenets: 

no immortal soul, no trinity, use God’s name, kingdom a real government, everlasting life on earth, why God permits evil, exactly how the ransom works, what happens to the dead, preserved nowhere except in the realm where the GB presides—that has to make an impression with anyone in whom love of truth resides. 

"The key tenets"...... , in other words we can call that "core teachings" ?

Given some of our previous discussions, can we say that for these basic things of belief every JW member should be willing to give his life, and for all other doctrines to think better about what he believes in?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I’m struck with how when people leave Jehovah’s organized worship, they never ever mention these tenets again. The very factors that drew them into the faith are now dismissed as though of no importance. It certainly is true of detractors here who would draw people away. The blemishes of humans taking the lead are drawn out, exaggerated, or even make up, as though they did not all have their counterparts among the first century apostles and presbyrs. Press the detractors for where they would have you go instead and they clam up. They have nothing to offer.

Unfortunately, you are repeating the wrong premise here, known to many. Most, if not all JW members, have learned something to hold on to like a drunk holding a fence to keep from stumbling. And that is that idea how there is no life outside the Organization, that is, they have a dilemma about which other organization they could go to if they leave this one.

Ex JWs don’t exist to offer you anything. Also, no other people in the world exist to offer you, JW, something better, or to put you in a new, different organization. If you believe in Jesus, then I guess it has become clear to you that he has the words of life, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. You are burdened with the idea of an (old, new) organization that should/would resemble the one you now belong to.

 

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This is for sure one way how to deal with wicked persons. People's (and animals) life and health must be protected.  Are secular courts have no right to be entitled? Well, if so, then you ask or advice us to be independent in/about in determining, at one's own discretion, when one is allowed to lie and deceive institutions that are "appointed by God" to maintain order in human society. This is done by JW lawyers in the courts of "Western democracy". If a JW member has the right to do so t

So then what you are saying is that it is your purpose in life to piss on something without offering anything better—to take away but not give. Isn’t that sort of a pathetic occupation for a grown man?

Or, if you are the Leaders of the Watchtower / JW Org, then you spend your time playing with numbers and dates to pretend you know more than other people do. 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ex JWs don’t exist to offer you anything. Also, no other people in the world exist to offer you, JW, something better, or to put you in a new, different organization.

So then what you are saying is that it is your purpose in life to piss on something without offering anything better—to take away but not give. Isn’t that sort of a pathetic occupation for a grown man?

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2 hours ago, xero said:

Strikes me that opposers are hanging on to the organization like a drunk man does to keep from stumbling.

That is a good thought, but probably very simplistic .... opposers, like everybody else, do what they know.

There is the drunk to whom the determination to drink supersedes all else, and blames the Organization for the consequences come with that, and

There is the drunk who hangs onto the Organization because he has seen the consequences of stumbling, and realizes that with all their deficiencies, they are less than his own.

... of course, there is no shortage of drunks, or reasons to be one....

... nor shortage of opposers, or reasons to be one.

Reminds me of the man who was trapped on an island in the middle of a river. He prayed to God to save him, as the waters got higher and higher, and he started climbing a tree.

A Fire Department rescue boat came by, but the Captain was an ugly midget, so the man waved them off.

Next a helicopter hovered overhead, and lowered a cable with a rescue ring, but the ring swung into his face head and hit him, man held onto the tree, as so far the water was only to his waist.

As the water rose and the current bent the tree over, it finally dawned on him he was about to die and he prayed "Oh God!, I am going to die, why did you not save me?"

... and God answered, " I heard your prayers, and I sent a boat and a helicopter .... you did not like either one."

 

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I wish JWs could see the blasphemy of calling an earthly organization, “God’s organization.”, or “Jehovah’s organization”.  This is a corrupt world, and the organization has conformed to its corruption. HOW CAN IT NOT?   It can’t be ignored.   Why would a blameless God delight in hearing His people call something corrupt, as belonging to Him?  He doesn’t lower His standards.  Only people do.

 “Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.”  Rom 12:2

That right there, is the problem.  JWs have a hard time discerning what is good and pleasing to God. There have been countless lies and false promises told by the its leadership, from the very beginning of the organization's development; and it continues - in the magazines, from the podium, in the videos, in the court systems, and in the judicial committees.  All appears acceptable, and all, comes from "Jehovah's organization".

This is blasphemy.

"God is not a man, that He might lie,
or a son of man, that He might change his mind.
Does He speak and not act,
or promise and not fulfill?"  Num 23:19

He doesn't lie.  So why does His "organization" lie?   Do JWs really believe that saying their organization belongs to God, is giving Him praise and glory?

 

  

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So then what you are saying is that it is your purpose in life to piss on something without offering anything better—to take away but not give. Isn’t that sort of a pathetic occupation for a grown man?

 

He already offered you something better.  Jesus Christ.  

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If you believe in Jesus, then I guess it has become clear to you that he has the words of life, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. You are burdened with the idea of an (old, new) organization that should/would resemble the one you now belong to.

I don't think it's clear to him, otherwise he would consider that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and the only WAY to the Father.  John 14:6

 

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We all know that Jesus was very concerned about the Christian Congregation ... so ..... if Jehovah's Witnesses, warts, scabs, drool and all, are not with whom we should be associating with ...... then who?

Specifically?

Where and who, ( a name, address, zip code is the specificity required) is the Congregation that is the "real deal"?

Give me  a better choice, and I will leave what I know in a New York second.

But I will need to know why the better choice really is the better choice.

Without specific proof of something better, your very best observations, reasoning, and logic is nothing more than light entertainment.

No more.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

We all know that Jesus was very concerned about the Christian Congregation ... so ..... if Jehovah's Witnesses, warts, scabs, drool and all, are not with whom we should be associating with ...... then who?

Specifically?

Where and who, ( a name, address, zip code is the specificity required) is the Congregation that is the "real deal"?

Give me  a better choice, and I will leave what I know in a New York second.

But I will need to know why the better choice really is the better choice.

Without specific proof of something better, your very best observations, reasoning, and logic is nothing more than light entertainment.

No more.

 

 

Your first approach is to ask God, in sincerity.  Mal 3:10

You need more scriptures.  Matt 7:7,8; John 8:31,32, and consider reading uninhibited, the Greek scriptures.  

God doesn't disappoint if our hearts are truly searching for truth. 

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4 hours ago, xero said:

Strikes me that opposers are hanging on to the organization like a drunk man does to keep from stumbling.

Not really.  Opposers have learned something, they have realized facts about their life in the organization.  They have realized that they have been told a lie.  They are rather sober now, when before they couldn’t discern a lie from a truth if their life depended on it – and it does. (2 Thess 2:9-12)   That is drunkenness and JWs suffer from it. (Isa 5:18-23)  Opposers speak up, because they now know the other side of Wt’s truth.  The Lie.  They may not all understand  the full story of why the organization exists, but after being convinced they had “the truth”, only to find out that truth and the darkness of false doctrine cannot harmonize, they are compelled to expose what they know.   (2 Cor 6:14)   Many don’t use the right methods to do so, but neither do JWs employ the right methods to squash the opposers, as we see with @BroRando , A. Morris, D. Splane, G. Losch, S. Lett, M. Sanderson, G. Jackson, S. Herd, and K. Cook. 

    Hello guest!

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And to think when I was assigned the thread—it wasn’t my idea—entitled ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates,’ which went on to inspire a book of the same name, I had JTR and Witness, along with Top Cat O’Malihan, on the same side!

I misjudged JTR back then, and I apologize for it, but he was behaving outrageously at the time. Now he has moderated enough for even a clod like me to see the distinction. 

The final transgression that earned me my Scarlet Letter A was when I suggested that my three ‘apostates,’ though seemingly on the same page, doubtless would not be able to stand each other in person. At some length, I detailed the reasons why. That’s what did it. Admin made the Librarian (that old hen) take the entire thread down and yell at me!

I wrote TrueTom vs the Apostates! to assist anyone who has been stumbled at charges apostates make and thereafter no one is able to help them because they don’t know what is there themselves. It’s for them. Nobody else is allowed to read it. Look, don’t try to bluff me on this. I’ll know.

It is available as an ebook and also in Amazon print. Easily found online.

 

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