The 144k and the GB...gnostics?

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, xero said:

the rest is speculation and there is and has always been organizational speculation as well as private and personal speculation. Does this mean that Jehovah isn't in control and directing things? No.

Ups, God controls and directs speculations ... inside WTJWorg :))

[xero]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ups, God controls and directs speculations ... inside WTJWorg :))

He's not directing the speculations any more than he killed the baby which came out of Bathsheba that wasn't Uriah's. Allowing and controlling are not the same as causing.

No. Causing and controlling are precisely what Satan and those like him think you have to do for things to work. You can see this in leftists and progressives who have to control everything. (and the imagine they can control the weather too...what incredible hubris)

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, xero said:

He's not directing the speculations any more than he killed the baby which came out of Bathsheba that wasn't Uriah's. Allowing and controlling are not the same as causing.

Then we have problem with (understanding) this Bible text where is explicitly clear who caused baby to die, among other things, where Nathan said God said it. 

Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says: ‘I myself anointed you as king over Israel,+ and I rescued you from the hand of Saul.+ 8  I was willing to give you your master’s house+ and put your master’s wives+ in your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and of Judah.+ And as if that were not enough, I was willing to do much more for you.+ 9  Why did you despise the word of Jehovah by doing what is bad in his eyes? You struck down U·riʹah the Hitʹtite with the sword!+ Then you took his wife as your wife+ after you killed him by the sword of the Amʹmon·ites.+ 10  Now a sword will never depart from your own house,+ because you despised me by taking the wife of U·riʹah the Hitʹtite as your wife.’ 11  This is what Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing against you calamity from within your own house;+ and before your own eyes, I will take your wives and give them to another man,*+ and he will lie down with your wives in broad daylight.*+ 12  Although you acted in secret,+ I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight.’”*13  David then said to Nathan: “I have sinned against Jehovah.”+ Nathan replied to David: “Jehovah, in turn, forgives your sin.*+ You will not die.+ 14  Nevertheless, because you have treated Jehovah with utter disrespect in this matter, the son just born to you will certainly die.”15  Then Nathan went to his own house.And Jehovah struck the child whom U·riʹah’s wife had borne to David, and he became sick. 16  David pleaded with the true God in behalf of the boy. David went on a strict fast and would go in and spend the night lying on the ground.+ 17  So the elders of his house stood over him and tried to raise him up from the ground, but he refused and would not eat with them. 18  On the seventh day the child died, but David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. - nwt translation

[Pudgy]

9 hours ago, xero said:

He's not directing the speculations any more than he killed the baby which came out of Bathsheba that wasn't Uriah's. Allowing and controlling are not the same as causing.

Although I agree with your principle here, the Scripture directly contradicts you. Apparently David's son was normal before being stricken with fatal sickness.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

14  Nevertheless, because you have treated Jehovah with utter disrespect in this matter, the son just born to you will certainly die.”15  Then Nathan went to his own house.And Jehovah struck the child whom U·riʹah’s wife had borne to David, and he became sick.

 

[xero]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then we have problem with (understanding) this Bible text where is explicitly clear who caused baby to die, among other things, where Nathan said God said it. 

Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says: ‘I myself anointed you as king over Israel,+ and I rescued you from the hand of Saul.+ 8  I was willing to give you your master’s house+ and put your master’s wives+ in your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and of Judah.+ And as if that were not enough, I was willing to do much more for you.+ 9  Why did you despise the word of Jehovah by doing what is bad in his eyes? You struck down U·riʹah the Hitʹtite with the sword!+ Then you took his wife as your wife+ after you killed him by the sword of the Amʹmon·ites.+ 10  Now a sword will never depart from your own house,+ because you despised me by taking the wife of U·riʹah the Hitʹtite as your wife.’ 11  This is what Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing against you calamity from within your own house;+ and before your own eyes, I will take your wives and give them to another man,*+ and he will lie down with your wives in broad daylight.*+ 12  Although you acted in secret,+ I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight.’”*13  David then said to Nathan: “I have sinned against Jehovah.”+ Nathan replied to David: “Jehovah, in turn, forgives your sin.*+ You will not die.+ 14  Nevertheless, because you have treated Jehovah with utter disrespect in this matter, the son just born to you will certainly die.”15  Then Nathan went to his own house.And Jehovah struck the child whom U·riʹah’s wife had borne to David, and he became sick. 16  David pleaded with the true God in behalf of the boy. David went on a strict fast and would go in and spend the night lying on the ground.+ 17  So the elders of his house stood over him and tried to raise him up from the ground, but he refused and would not eat with them. 18  On the seventh day the child died, but David’s servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. - nwt translation

If you knew anything about hebraisms and the way things are expressed, you'd know that the translation "Jehovah struck the child" is an interpretation w/regard to Jehovah allowing. So you have latitude as to how to read and view this scripture.

Elsewhere it says

 Ezekiel 18:20 -The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone.

And that the unborn are considered precious and valuable has been discussed elsewhere (Ps. 139 16)

The fact that the scripture attributes an executional act on the part of Jehovah towards the relatively innocent unborn child serves to underscore that all things which happen in the universe are only possible because Jehovah ALLOWS it.

Your ability to enjoy something? "Jehovah made me enjoy that ice cream cone." 

"Really? Jehovah MADE you? So you ate the whole carton and it's Jehovah's fault?"

One might say  - Jehovah ALLOWED the bible writer to describe the death of the child as being the result of direct intervention. Or do we say Jehovah CAUSED the bible writer to describe it this way?

There have been a lot of discussions w/regard to the difference between causing and allowing ...

https://bnonn.com/is-there-a-relevant-difference-between-causing-and-permitting-evil/

I think in this particular case the translation is intended to underscore that bad behavior will be punished and that innocent (relatively so) people can and will bear the brunt at times as well and this is on them for their bad behavior.

In every case the whiners against Jehovah are in a weak position w/their arguments. 

 

[xero]

36 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Although I agree with your principle here, the Scripture directly contradicts you. Apparently David's son was normal before being stricken with fatal sickness.

 

Actually we don't know that. People today look "apparently well" until they aren't and this can happen quickly. Take the epidemic of 1918. Young people would be healthy in the morning, no symptoms and dead by the end of the day.

[Pudgy]

On 8/31/2021 at 4:04 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, JW members' "bible-trained consciences" would disregard the GB directive on how to treat former members.

You cannot fight a war with the army you want ... you have to fight a war with the army you have.

This is particularly true with Leadership ... and Leaders become Leaders for all sorts of reasons, just as men become soldiers for all sorts of reasons,

Classic example of "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"

The Polish soldiers fought the Nazi Panzer tanks with horse drawn artillery, and were slaughtered, and Poland was lost to the Third Reich.

It is not a surprise, or even unusual in any way that Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body has elements of hubris, incompetency, and self aggrandizement that permeates ANY effective Military Organization Officers' Corps, especially at the General Staff level.  Such is the curse of all men.

There are no exceptions in ANY Organization of more than, say 200 people ...... get used to the idea, or pick at your scabs until they turn cancerous.

They have a habit of going overboard in trying to establish discipline and consolidate their authority ..... we have a habit of resisting discipline, thereby undermining their authority.  Anytime three people interact there will be politics, and a jockeying for advantage. Internal politics must be a drama to see.

Interestingly enough, in the United States, it is not considered cruel and unusual punishment to impose the death penalty for crimes, but it IS considered cruel and unusual punishment to deny a person their Citizenship.

There are basic human rights that we have as a natural consequence of being human ... and although disfellowshipping is an absolute necessity in any society.... HOW it is done defines whether or not it is necessary protection of that Society, or is just an exercise in cruelty "... because one can".

There is nothing whatsoever in Christian Tenets that justify cruelty.

A lesson most of us learn too late ... just because we can do something, does not mean we should.

 

[Pudgy]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And Jehovah struck the child whom U·riʹah’s wife had borne to David, and he became sick.

...seems pretty clear to me ....

[Srecko Sostar]

11 minutes ago, xero said:

hebraisms and the way things are expressed

 

12 minutes ago, xero said:

the translation "Jehovah struck the child" is an interpretation w/regard to Jehovah allowing.

 

12 minutes ago, xero said:

So you have latitude as to how to read and view this scripture.

 

12 minutes ago, xero said:

I think in this particular case the translation is intended to

This is in range of "scientific" and "inspired" explanation about ( Hebraism) bible text that is written in (not) "understandably" way for simple minds readers (that is - "Blessed are the poor in spirit"). If so, how to understand, lets say, simple command "do not murder, lie, steal...,". Do we need extra interpretations too? 
Of course we need. Because GB have many to say about how to practice such "simple" commands.  Especially in secular court cases where WTJWorg lawyers reinterpreting meaning of words "lie and truth" giving them new application.  

[Srecko Sostar]

7 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

You cannot fight a war with the army you want ... you have to fight a war with the army you have.

Ok. I am the army for (by) myself and every other individual is army for itself (himself). That is battle between lie and truth inside us. This sort of war we have to fight. Alone (by myself)..... always alone (by myself).

[xero]

28 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

...seems pretty clear to me ....

So did Jehovah create the sun on the fourth day?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 9/1/2021 at 4:40 AM, xero said:

If you know anything, you know that no one gets DF'ed for doing anything. They get DF'ed for their attitude about what they're doing. If you don't cop an attitude, you generally don't get DF'ed.

I have to agree that this does make sense. Though I would think there are cases where people have a right to have an attitude if they've been incorrectly dealt with.  I must admit that the Elders, in more than one congregation, were 'on my back' about some things, but I was never D/fed. 

On 9/1/2021 at 4:40 AM, xero said:

The "weeding" is what people do to themselves when they leave permanently. Are they leaving to a better, more correct group of Christians, or just a group who'll tolerate all manner of bad behavior?

Please be balanced enough to accept that some of us leave because of the immorality within the JW Org. I make it clear that I left because of the CSA earthwide in the Org, and because of the dishonest way it was being dealt with.  I felt that the Org was not a safe place to invite families into. I have since found other reasons not to return, but i have not gone looking for an alternative 'Christian' way, nor have I turned my back on God or Christ. Please think again on those last few words of your sentence above. Who was that tolerated pedophile Elders and M/s in congregations of JWs ? 

On 9/1/2021 at 4:40 AM, xero said:

Do I believe every recent interpretation or other older interpretations which have come down the pike?

This is now an important issue to me. I could not hand out Watchtower magazines or books from the GB / Org if I did not agree with the things written inside them. 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 4:40 AM, xero said:

And I don't teach any of those things as facts, but as interpretations.

I'd love to see that in a Bible study. Telling a student to read a paragraph from the book, and then saying, 'well actually you don't have to believe that because it's only what the GB write. it might not be true'