Posts moved from a recent topic about a J.F.Rutherford book

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not interested in anecdotes that highlight embarrassments and mistakes of the past. As I said above, my interest is in what we are teaching currently about this time period.

But you've often spoken about your concern over the teachings of '1914' as if it is just dragging an old tradition into 'new light'. 

And Yeshua made a point of teaching about building a 'house' on a good foundation.  Can you in honesty prove that the JW Org is built on a good solid foundation ? 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

5 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

on our block of land when an animal goes somehow deranged it is allowed to be put down ,as it is well established that apostates are fully unhinged ,they are welcome to visit  if in the neighbourhood

Isn't that what the Pharisies did to Yeshua ? Just as you would do to honest truth, kill it. 

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

But you've often spoken about your concern over the teachings of '1914' as if it is just dragging an old tradition into 'new light'. 

1914 is a good case in point. I'm interested in how our chronology traditions developed, and how these teachings were justified, and changed, and re-justified, with both secular mistakes, and Biblical interpretion mistakes. But I'm not interested in anecdotes about the personalities of those people who carried on and defended the chronology traditions. Those traditions (1844, 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925) either stand or fall on whether they had Biblical support. The human and secular support, or lack thereof, is far less relevant. The point should not be to embarrass Wm Miller, Nelson Barbour, Joseph Seiss, Charles Russell, Morton Edgar, or Joseph Rutherford, but to check such teachings against the Bible "touchstone."

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Can you in honesty prove that the JW Org is built on a good solid foundation ? 

I don't follow the "Org," I appreciate the organization for how it has been instrumental in currently helping millions of people build their faith on a solid foundation: faith in Jehovah, Christ Jesus, and the words and teachings of the Bible. I appreciate that it very efficiently and effectively has been instrumental in teaching tens of millions more, and getting the word out to hundreds of millions. (I.e., setting an example for preaching and teaching "good news" about a time under the Kingdom when there will be no more war, no more divisive politics, no more racism, and a time when Jehovah's provisions will make all things new, returning heaven and earth to His original purpose.)

I don't believe we need worry too much about the history of an organization, as if that is what Jesus meant by building on a solid foundation. What the organization was back between, say, 1884 and 1935, or even between 1935 and 2021 is also not of such great concern to me. I'm interested in the history mostly to the extent that I want to make sure that what we currently teach about that history is accurate and not distorted.

I have other interests in history, more generally, because I find it fascinating. Not just religious history, but all kinds of history. I always learn about various mundane themes (sociology, class, leadership, politics, psychology) that seem relevant as historical situations tend to be repeated.

Also, my great-grandfather was a "Pilgrim" in the Chicago Bible Students who traveled with Russell to speak at conventions, and he continued on under Rutherford. He said that most of the Chicago Bible Students were "Russellites," as he himself had been, and most of them left under Rutherford. Some of his "brethren" had left even earlier. Some had left in 1909 over doctrinal issues (New Covenant, "The Vow") some in 1914 and 1915 over failed predictions and expectations. So I admit that some family stories and "artifacts" of the Bible Student era hold my interest for more mundane reasons, too.

Even if the original organization had been no more than another faction of Catholicism or Protestantism that didn't believe in Trinity, Hellfire or War, that would be more than enough of a good start. My only expectation, historically, is that it would continue to progress, to put off more and more false teachings. Then we should find some evidence of Jehovah's blessing as it should attract more people who are looking for a kind of Christianity with a reasonable core of Biblical values and therefore find a brotherhood that encourages and promotes Christian conduct and activities. But the foundation is Christ, not the Organization. 

[Witness]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Then we should find some evidence of Jehovah's blessing as it should attract more people who are looking for a kind of Christianity with a reasonable core of Biblical values and therefore find a brotherhood that encourages and promotes Christian conduct and activities. But the foundation is Christ, not the Organization. 

Of course the foundation is Christ, but that belief system will never establish itself within the organization.  

“Like those in Christendom, the early Bible Students mistakenly allowed their love for Jesus to overshadow their relationship with Jehovah. Beginning in 1919, however, they came to see that Jehovah and their relationship with him should be the focus of their worship. We can be thankful that we understand that our affection for Jesus is key to having a relationship with Jehovah. We must attach neither too much nor too little importance to our love for Jesus.—John 16:27.   W 4/2022 study article #17

This sounds to me that Wt’s “foundation in Christ” is on shaky ground.  It must be that way, because the teachings of men will always take precedence. 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My only expectation, historically, is that it would continue to progress, to put off more and more false teachings.

The definition of love for Christ in the paragraph, is a teaching of men, and not of God.  Love for either the Father or the Son cannot be gauged by the Wt.  (Matt 15:9) But the leadership will continue to manage another's faith; and in that way, their organization will never allow a foundation in Christ to develop within one's heart.  

 “The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father. I also will love him and will reveal myself to him.”  John 14:21

Did the apostles feel the need to constrain themselves when expressing their love for Jesus? 

“For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; ¹⁵ and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf.” 2 Cor 5:14,15

Since your leaders deem it necessary to reach out and control one’s love for Jesus Christ, who is it that has no love for him?   Who loves their organization more than Jesus Christ?

 

 

 

 

[Pudgy]

I agree 100% with JWI’s assessment and post, above, and I am very critical of the Governing Body, and temporarily not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

A study and understanding of History gives a person a better perspective of the importance of the infinite elements of why today ….. is the way it is.

   —> SNAFU IS WITH US ALWAYS! <—

It’s like a drunkard stumbling down the street, weaving, falling down, crashing into stuff, being helped by another drunk.

Realistically, the most we can hope for is to make it to the corner, and home, without getting hit by a bus.

Such is the nature of ALL fragile, carbon based DNA life forms. There are no exceptions, as the concept of self-righteousness alludes to.

As we have seen, and today is day 100 in the “Special Military Operation” war between the Russian Federation and the Ukraine, wars are not fought with the leadership and resources you want …. wars are fought with the leadership and resources you  HAVE!

All else is self-righteous fantasy.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I appreciate that it very efficiently and effectively has been instrumental in teaching tens of millions more, and getting the word out to hundreds of millions. (I.e., setting an example for preaching and teaching "good news" about a time under the Kingdom when there will be no more war, no more divisive politics, no more racism, and a time when Jehovah's provisions will make all things new, returning heaven and earth to His original purpose.)

It has indeed spread the 'good news' but unfortunately it has tanted it with lies, unfulfilled predictions, threats, and other stumbiling blocks. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't believe we need worry too much about the history of an organization, as if that is what Jesus meant by building on a solid foundation. What the organization was back between, say, 1884 and 1935, or even between 1935 and 2021 is also not of such great concern to me.

it is of concern for me as it has served as a stumbling block to many.  

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Some had left in 1909 over doctrinal issues (New Covenant, "The Vow") some in 1914 and 1915 over failed predictions and expectations.

Yes and those failed predictions would have stumbled many. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My only expectation, historically, is that it would continue to progress, to put off more and more false teachings.

I don't know what to say to this. You are admitting that 8 million JWs are still being taught false teachings, and, that those same JWs are teaching false teachings to others. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the foundation is Christ, not the Organization. 

I think you are deliberately denying the truth about your GB and its Org.  Live in hope yes, but we all know that the GB pretend to be the spokesmen of God. The GB pretend that 'God and Christ trust them so every JW should trust them'.

The GB have almost bluntly told the rest of the Anointed to keep quiet, and not to gather together for prayer or study. 

And in most of the new Study Watchtowers (Jan to August 2022)  it's telling JWs to do as they are told by the GB through the Elders, without question.  Yes I've been reading the W/t online. 

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

A study and understanding of History gives a person a better perspective of the importance of the infinite elements of why today ….. is the way it is.

   —> SNAFU IS WITH US ALWAYS! <—

It’s like a drunkard stumbling down the street, weaving, falling down, crashing into stuff, being helped by another drunk.

You've  just described spiritual drunkenness that the Bible addresses when God's people under covenant teach false doctrines and the commands of men.  

Isa 29:9-14; 28:7-9,15; Jer 13:12-16; Prov 29:12; Matt 24:48-51; Hab 2:15-16; Rev 17:1-2; 18:2-3,9-10

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa+29%3A9-14%3B+28%3A7-9%2C15%3B+Jer+13%3A12-16%3B+Prov+29%3A12%3B+Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+Hab+2%3A15-16%3B+Rev+17%3A1-2%3B+18%3A2-3%2C9-10&version=NASB

 

Then the Lord said,
“Because this people approaches Me with their words 
And honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of the commandment of men that is taught;
 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the understanding of their men who have understanding will be concealed.”  Isa 29:13-14

It is from pure spiritual drunkenness, pervasive in the organization, that JWs remain incognizant to the severity before God, of Wt's record of falsehoods and the doctrine of men, laced throughout their teachings.  In fact their reaction is flippant, having no respect for what is truth and what is a lie, according to the Father and the Son.

Is the GB  truly the "faithful slave" serving  food at the proper time?  

"Words from the mouth of a wise person are gracious, while the lips of a fool consume him; 13 the beginning of his talking is foolishness, and the end of it is evil insanity. 14 Yet the fool multiplies words. No person knows what will happen, and who can tell him what will come after him? 

15 The labor of a fool makes him so weary that he does not even know how to go to a city. 16 Woe to you, land whose king is a boy, and whose princes feast in the morning. 

17 Blessed are you, land whose king is of nobility, (Jesus Christ)  and whose princes eat at the appropriate time—for strength and not for drunkenness. "  Eccl 10:12-17

 

[Pudgy]

Witness:

Most everything you say is true, but my perspective is quite different.

I was for many years a strong advocate of the Confederate States of America … and grew up with a 6 foot long Confederate battle flag above my bed headboard, and worked for a guy that had a civil war cannon in front of his business … and when traveling would frequent places where (for a large tip) the band would play “Dixie” for me. I was a great admirer of General Robert E. Lee, and still am.

The point being, “Church Ideas” are like battles being fought in the “Arena of Ideas”, and as in any war, the best battle plans often crumble with first contact.

Even General Lee, a superior man by any estimation, and an excellent General, made serious mistakes where tens of thousands of soldiers under his command were needlessly slaughtered. The attempt to take Cemetery Ridge in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania is a good example, and a fascinating study of what happens when ego and error are multiplied.

Yeah, the GB creeps me out with their self serving egotism, and don’t get me started on Caleb and Sophia, or “Overlapping Generations”, or three dozen other topics, but if I was an atheist, and did an analysis of which group on this earth had the best chance of advancing mankind’s progress toward honor, virtue, discipline and responsibility ….. not just survival …. but advancement ….. I would choose Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It’s like a “weighted” test score in school …. Getting the most IMPORTANT things right counts for more than things of actual, practical, lesser importance.

To understand my viewpoint you will need to get at least 4 beers, and read the third chapter of Isaac Asimov’s classic “I, Robot” in one sitting ….. and THINK about it!

[Pudgy]

…. And besides, God does not want us to worship him accurately because he will get sad, pout, and depressed if we don’t … He wants us to accurately worship him because we are (to the best of current knowledge), his favorite project …. because it is the best thing for the human race, to be all “on the same channel”, doing the right things at the right time.

The T-Rex did not go extinct because it’s front arms were too short to floss.

[Pudgy]

Wally, you are one scary dude …. my guess you think the same way as those bat-crap crazy Democrats.

(…. by the way, you are referred to as Wally in the JW closed club …. Specifically as not the “Dilbert” Wally, but “our” Wally.)

[Pudgy]

58 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:

 … Um! Oh! Yeah, I will NEVER be your WALLY, or brother in the faith, since you people are in league with apostates.

Works for me!