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Jack Ryan

Can I give my girlfriend a back rub if we're dating as Jehovah Witnesses?

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James Thomas Rook Jr. -
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This would depend on the purpose of the massage. 

If you are a licensed masseur then I'm sure no one would object. (or maybe a chiropractor) 

However, if, as I suspect, you are asking with the purpose of gratifying your desire to touch her because she is a female and your girlfriend than I suspect you would not be allowed to.

Others can weigh in if they wish. And I'm sure some countries and customs are very strict about touching at all.

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I've  a  BIG  smile  on  my  face... :D  SO  hard  rules  in  the  USA ?  I  know  JW-friends,  they  go  hand in hand...  By  swimming,  together  with  others,  its  ok  when  you  rub her  back  with  sun-creame,  YES !   Also  a  little  kiss  I  saw  on  and  off...  haha :)   The  most  younger  JW-friends  not  want  a  massage,  they  want  holding  hands  and  some  little  kisses.... :x     Maybe,  in  some  countries  the  touching -'rules'  little  stronger :(

Everyone  got  their  conscience,  so  its  not  our  problem  bec. all  JW  will  handle  different  and  I  hope  in  Jehovah's  sense !  My  GF  told  me  her  own  experiences  of  the  past  very  clear,  touching  not  forbidden  - but  both  were  Jehovah  loyal  until  to  the  wedding !   I  think,  THATS  importend,  or  not ?

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I have mentioned the basic rule for such things before, here on the Archive ... which applies to not only this specific instance ... but to EVERYTHING you could possibly think or do, per the various publications such as the Elders Handbook, and the Branch Office guidelines, and the "unwritten rules" which apply ..... and it is this.

EVERYTHING NOT SPECIFICALLY PERMITTED IS FORBIDDEN

The phrase, "It is up to your individual conscience" is bandied about .... because nobody wants to get sued.

On a side note.... anybody know WHY Greece is selling off the Branch Office?

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11 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

I've  a  BIG  smile  on  my  face... :D  SO  hard  rules  in  the  USA ?  I  know  JW-friends,  they  go  hand in hand...  By  swimming,  together  with  others,  its  ok  when  you  rub her  back  with  sun-creame,  YES !   Also  a  little  kiss  I  saw  on  and  off...  haha :)   The  most  younger  JW-friends  not  want  a  massage,  they  want  holding  hands  and  some  little  kisses.... :x     Maybe,  in  some  countries  the  touching -'rules'  little  stronger :(

Everyone  got  their  conscience,  so  its  not  our  problem  bec. all  JW  will  handle  different  and  I  hope  in  Jehovah's  sense !  My  GF  told  me  her  own  experiences  of  the  past  very  clear,  touching  not  forbidden  - but  both  were  Jehovah  loyal  until  to  the  wedding !   I  think,  THATS  importend,  or  not ?

Tell me about it, not even married couples are allowed to hold hands or embrace, (side embrace) each other while praying in a kingdom hall. Talk about silly rules:

Some marriage mates might discreetly hold hands, but if they embraced each other during public prayer, those who got a glimpse of such conduct might be stumbled. They might think or get the impression that the couple was focusing on their romantic relationship instead of reverence for Jehovah. Out of deep respect for him, let us therefore “do all things for God’s glory” and avoid conduct that could distract, shock, or stumble anyone.

    Hello guest!

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That  are  YOUR  words,  @Matthew9969   -  holding  hands  during  a  public  prayer!    Thats  only  for  married  couples  or  families.  Not  holding  hands  in  the  Kingdom  Hall !   I  saw  JW - friends,  GOING  hand  in  hand....  Also, everyone  has  another  mature  level.  -   Many  JW  have  their  own  special  rules...  and  we  not  have  to  judge !

Thats  all  I've  to  say  ~~~~~~~~

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23 hours ago, The Librarian said:

This would depend on the purpose of the massage. 

If you are a licensed masseur then I'm sure no one would object. (or maybe a chiropractor) 

However, if, as I suspect, you are asking with the purpose of gratifying your desire to touch her because she is a female and your girlfriend than I suspect you would not be allowed to.

Others can weigh in if they wish. And I'm sure some countries and customs are very strict about touching at all.

very good point, here in our country if you are dating theres some procedures to follow>: first no kissing is allowed under any circumstances, also the only way a couple can sit down together is when they are engaged, if you are dating, you need to inform the elders and then you sit with her parents, as regarding touching, a chaperone must be present with you when you are dating so that the courtship will remain dignified and clean,  1 cor 14:40.

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11 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

That  are  YOUR  words,  @Matthew9969   -  holding  hands  during  a  public  prayer!    Thats  only  for  married  couples  or  families.  Not  holding  hands  in  the  Kingdom  Hall !   I  saw  JW - friends,  GOING  hand  in  hand....  Also, everyone  has  another  mature  level.  -   Many  JW  have  their  own  special  rules...  and  we  not  have  to  judge !

Thats  all  I've  to  say  ~~~~~~~~

That is straight from your watchtower, not my words at all. Telling married couples they are not allowed to hold hands. You guys don't even want to believe what is printed by the governing body, why do you people stay with this religion you have no belief in?

 

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11 hours ago, JOHN DAVIS said:

very good point, here in our country if you are dating theres some procedures to follow>: first no kissing is allowed under any circumstances, also the only way a couple can sit down together is when they are engaged, if you are dating, you need to inform the elders and then you sit with her parents, as regarding touching, a chaperone must be present with you when you are dating so that the courtship will remain dignified and clean,  1 cor 14:40.

Would the same rule apply to older single people who are interested in each other?

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At  @Matthew9969....  Please,  put  your  answer  to  MY  text  here  and  NOT  to  any  WT - text !   I  used  my  own  words  and  NOT  cited  anything  from  WT !   I  know,  our  Literature  has  some  other  rules.  I've  my  own  view points  of  some  things, but  in  Jehovah's  sense - and  nobody  has  to  judge !

The  best  is,  ask  older  singles  to  their  rules,  but  not  here...  Btw. they  not  will  tell  you, haha:D The  most  will  go  through  this  difficult  time  together  with  Jehovah,  the  BEST  idea :x

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On 12/17/2017 at 3:14 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Talk about silly rules:

Free speech or course but you are just creating debate abiout personal preference and really seeking to impose your personal views on others in matters of conscience.  Short comment? Stop wasting peoples time!

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Wow, now that is amazing, jw's are so embarrassed what their watchtower says they ask me not to quote form it, ok I'll stop quoting watchtower articles,  since they are rather embarrassing to you guys. I'll just give you my personal opinion instead so you can invalidate it. 

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On 12/17/2017 at 10:14 AM, Matthew9969 said:

Talk about silly rules:

There are no rules of any sort.

Except for a family head who is authorized to set rules for his family. And since Bethel is a 'family' - many persons living in voluntary close quarters for a specific reason - there are quite a few rules there. But they do not carry over into the general congregation (though there are always some who would have it otherwise).

There is counsel and peer pressure. It will be (relevant to this thread) based on the concept many have noticed that men and women are attracted to each other, yet cannot enjoy the intimate closeness of sex relations unless married so it is best not to allow themselves to get all pumped up. The counsel varies from place to place and culture will have something to do with it.

If you enjoy privileges in the congregation - servant, pioneer - you will find that you are expected to be an example and you can lose privileges by flying in the face of such counsel as to what is locally acceptable or has been published. Otherwise, no.

Jehovah's people are not belligerent or headstrong and are not inclined to blow off counsel as nothing. Elders are not control freaks or micro-managers, though some are - in about the same proportion as the general population, I would guess. Efforts are made through training so as to get those ones to be less that way.

There is such a thing as 'brazen conduct' - it used to be translated 'loose conduct.' It has the air of contempt & outrageous disregard of customary standards & an in-your-face attitude. That can get a person in trouble. Since it is more vague than outright immorality, it will not always be applied consistently. But always it is associated with persistent defiance of accepted conduct - just look up the word 'brazen' to get a sense for it.

But it is never a matter of petty rules enforced by people who just like to meddle. Anyone like that jeopardizes his reputation as a reasonable person - one of the criteria for serving as an older man.

 

 

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Guest Nicole

To avoid problems give back rub like this ?

 

funny_animals_24_1_1.jpg

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November 15, 2009 Watchtower "What do Your Prayers Say About You?" page 6 para 19 reads: 19 When we are being represented in public prayer, we need to display reverential "fear of God." (1 Pet 2:17) There may be a proper time and place for some actions that would be inappropriate at a Christian meeting.(Eccl 3:1) For instance, suppose someone sought to have all in a group link arms or hold hands during prayer. This might offend or distract some, including visitors who do not share our beliefs. Some marriage mates might discreetly hold hands, but if they embraced each other during public prayer, those who got a glimpse of such conduct might be stumbled. They might think or get the impression that the couple was focusing on their romantic relationship instead of reverence for Jehovah. Out of deep respect for him, let us therefore "do all things for God's glory" and avoid conduct that could distract, shock or stumble anyone.- 1 Cor 10:31,32; 2 Cor 6:3.

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      Often we try to mimic the relationship of others. Maybe we think that there's a right way and a wrong way to do relationships, so we try to figure out the right way and copy that.
      Or, maybe we see a relationship that is working well and we decide that they've figured it out and we try to duplicate what's working for them. This only leads to frustration and more judgment of you and your partner because your relationship will not be like anyone else's. You need to do what works for you.
      My friend Gary Douglas, who's also the founder of Access Consciousness®, tells a story about a toothpaste tube. Gary likes to squeeze the toothpaste tube from the bottom. His wife, however, likes to squeeze it in the middle. After 16 years of irritation over the toothpaste tube, he had an epiphany. Oh! We could have two tubes of toothpaste.
      What if you could stop looking at relationships based on what everyone else is doing and ask, "What's the most pragmatic solution I can have here?" You might just find choices and solutions you never considered before!
      3. Giving yourself up in the relationship
      How many times have you entered a relationship only to find that a few weeks in, everything has become about the other person? You stop doing what's fun for you. You stop hanging out with people you enjoy. Your life becomes all about your partner, and you give up more of yourself than you bargained for.
      This never works! You are the most valuable ingredient in your relationship. If you take yourself out, the relationship doesn't have a chance. Keep you in the relationship. Continue to do what you enjoy. Choose to spend time with people that you value and that value you. This adds to your relationships. It doesn't take away.
      If you've stopped doing what you enjoy and stopped connecting with friends, you can start again today! Begin by taking one hour each day to do what you love.
      4. Replaying the mistakes of the past
      Do you ever wake up in the morning and the first thing you remember is how your partner messed up yesterday? Maybe they forgot to do something you wanted them to do. Maybe they were cranky and took it out on you. Whatever happened yesterday and every day before that, rather than replaying it in your head, could you let it go?
      An effective way do this is, every morning when you wake up, is to destroy and uncreate your relationship. To destroy and uncreate your relationship doesn't mean to end the relationship. It means to end the judgment, the expectations, and the resentment that kill your relationship so that you can have all the joy of your relationship.
      Every day say, "Everything that our relationship was yesterday, all the judgments, all the conclusions, all the expectations, I let those go now."
      Use this tool and notice that every day the relationship is even better than it was the day before.
      5. Getting into a relationship rut
      Have you lost the fun and excitement that was there in the beginning of your relationship? Do you find yourself sometimes bored? Wondering what's next? Wishing you could ignite the spark again?
      If that describes your relationship, you can change it! Make the choice daily to be in your relationship. If you do this, you will move from existing in the relationship back into the creativity, fun, and excitement that was there when it first began.
      Whether your relationship is new or one you've been in for many years, it can still be fun, playful, and enjoyable. It's never too late to let go of the destructive habits that ruin relationships and begin to create something that works.
      Choose gratitude. Choose to keep yourself in the relationship. Let go of the judgments, expectations, and conclusions that you may have picked up along the way and allow the sense of wonder, creativity, and adventure to be your relationship reality.
      By Dr. Dain Hair/MBG
       
       
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