Inspired Choices? Jesus Picked Judas; Governing Body Picked Raymond Franz;

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 minute ago, Anna said:

What would you say to Jesus when he handpicked Judas Iscariot as one of his 12 Apostles?

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. 

Different times, different situations.

Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. 

Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate."

Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ.

Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint.

But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

25 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Then you challenge God’s sovereignty and superiority. I would have to ask, who are you to challenge God? Are you Satan as the inference implies? Hitler was an evil man as a youth. That darkened heart continued to increase over the embarrassment of having his country lose a war and having Jews gain some control over the motherland. Therefore, the Hitler analogy is inadequate in how someone would blame an organization or society. Seems like an overreach bordering on mental instability.

 

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret  everything i  write.

It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case....  

Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him.  The  Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. 

Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders.

Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. 

Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ?  

But let's get back on topic. A question 

Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ? 

[FelixCA]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

We have full evidence that the disciples were inspired by Spirit. John 20:22;  Rom 8:5,9; 1 Cor 2:10  We don't have that evidence with the GB who must alter teachings continually.   We don't hear how the Spirit directs them, but that they are not "inspired"; so, instead, we hear how the GB put their heads together to come up with new decrees.  There is no comparison to the apostles.  Why make it?  

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking. A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.

So far, I see conflict as Raymond Franz had about CHANGE. Although the change he had in mind was becoming the next President of the Watchtower, and when that didn’t happen, apostasy grew within.

As a living sacrifice, shouldn’t we make a change? Romans 12:1-2

Shouldn’t we be renewed day by day? 2 Corinthians 4:16-18

Whereas those that oppose authority defy God.

Romans 13:2

2Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

There seems to be some confusion about the great commission. Matthew 28:19-20 and the rule we each have with our personal abilities. Mark 16:15 what it means to preach thought-out the world. Acts 1:8 and who has what capabilities and responsibilities. 

 

Ephesians 4:11-16 King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian. Jesus appointed the apostles but God gave them the Holy Spirit just as it was given to Christ. Jesus appointed the laborers for the harvest Luke 10, but God gave them the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus defy the prevailing authority? Matthew 23:2-4

Therefore, let’s put that authority nonsense to rest once and for all. What is a flock without a shepherd? Acts 20:28 who are the overseers, the sheep? I can think of several things not to listen to such lofty arguments. 2 Corinthians 10:5

[FelixCA]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons,  that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case

Your wrong, you are doing the same thing. Therefore, don't lie to yourself, no one else is listening.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Are you suggesting, Jesus didn’t alter the Jewish teaching? At what point does denigrating the GB by you and Butler amount to ethical thinking.

You appear to be placing the GB on the same level as Jesus Christ, which I agree that they have accomplished this.  Jesus altered the Jewish teaching because its leaders spoke as their "father", Satan.  

  Is anyone allowed to alter Jesus' teachings?  

 

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

A person that opposes God’s coordinated earthly rule and one that renounces their own faith have zero credibility to any conversation.

Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?

The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.

 

The “Pharisaical” leaders of the WT cannot interpret the decrees of God since they have come as false “christs”, lording it over anointed and all in the organization. Matt 24:24  They expect obedience to them and their decrees, and not to Jesus Christ and his Word, which comes from God.

" Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The WORDS I speak to you I DO NOT SPEAK ON MY OWN. The Father who lives in Me does His works." John 14:10

“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands AND TEACHES PEOPLE TO DO SO, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES THAT OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."   Deut 4:2

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

Those that refuse to obey the instructions left by Christ cannot be called a Christian.

That's right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FelixCA]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule?

The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according to the decrees of men.

So far scripture stipulates those that can take the lead. You seem to fail in wanting to acknowledge their needs to be a party responsible in any given organization as instructed by Jesus. A faithful servant, reputable men, shepherd of a flock. All these are found in scripture you seem to dismiss. The ancients had prophets as guides. Christianity was guided by Christ and instructed to do the same throughout the world. With responsible people in the lead. Why defy Jesus instructions and God’s laws. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you. These are the inspired words of God through John 1:1

Then it is yourself that are altering Jesus teachings. Then you should consider placing yourself in the same category as the GB. It’s dishonest to claim scripture as a convenience. 1 John 4:1-6

Therefore, can you give me verification the Watchtower GB is NOT God’s coordinated helpers on earth as God's will is in heaven?

On the rest, it appears the interpretation you give on scripture is misguided. Can anyone listen to a corrupter of God's word? Once again, wouldn’t that put you in the same category as these “Pharisaical leaders” you hate? Matthew 16:11-12

It appears the same problem Raymond Franz had after confusing scripture with his own personal desire.

All that the GB is about is written in scripture. In effect, the Watchtower constitution. What, is your constitution and doctrine when having people understand scripture the incorrect way for personal gain. Therefore, no one is adding to Christ instructions aside from those that hate a fellow Christian Colossians 2:4

[Witness]

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you.

I have no problem at all with it.  I do not lay down new decrees for men to obey as the GB is known for, and admits to doing.  (Check with Anthony Morris about this)  This is "distorting the truth" - Christ's truth.

Felix the Cat carried around a Magic Bag of Tricks.  I'll just say this; no further comment, Allen Smith. 

 

[The Librarian]

This is a whole new thread that spun out of the Raymond Franz article.... not BY JOHN BUTLER... but a group of members.... just for clarity

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider Thank you, I could not link to this so this is a great help, and those last few comments I would not want to have missed. 

@FelixCA you mentioned," With responsible people in the lead."

So not the GB then  

Quote " Therefore, can you give me verification the Watchtower GB is NOT God’s coordinated helpers on earth as God's will is in heaven? " 

By their works you will know them.  Evidence proves the GB are not God's true servants. 

  

[JOHN BUTLER]

@FelixCA  "All that the GB is about is written in scripture."    Ah yes, offering children to Molech.  

Quote "Whereas those that oppose authority defy God. " 

Well the Pope has authority in the eyes of many. The Archbishop also has authority in the eyes of many. 

And your GB has authority in the eyes of a few. 

So you see, your comment means nothing at all. You are lost. 

[Melinda Mills]

 God gave his intelligent creation freedom of choice. Jehovah made a beautiful angel in heaven along with myriads of others, he decided to become a resister of Jehovah's purpose later on and is called Satan. Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards. Governing body picked Raymond Franz, etc etc  Everyone intelligent creation can change.

[JOHN BUTLER]

42 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

 God gave his intelligent creation freedom of choice. Jehovah made a beautiful angel in heaven along with myriads of others, he decided to become a resister of Jehovah's purpose later on and is called Satan. Jesus picked Judas, Judas changed afterwards. Governing body picked Raymond Franz, etc etc  Everyone intelligent creation can change.

You have been taught well. You are good at twisting things to your own purpose just like the GB does. 

But you have chosen a very sly way to accuse Raymond Franz. 

And anyway if you believe the GB are who they pretend to be, wouldn't God have chosen Franz, or possibly Jesus chosen Franz ?