Is Anglo America the King of the north??

[KevinM]

This topic is open for discussion, but I was not able to make any replies in my own topic I posted last week > Whats the meaning of Matthew 24:15? .   OR I can’t figure out how, (I requested support and have not received any yet). 

Still cannot reply to my comments Feb 23, 2022 8:11 Am

 

At Daniel 11:40, the battle between the “king of the north” (KOTN) and “the king of the south”(KOTS)  is marked by the angel’s reference to “the time of the end”.  When does this particular “time of the end” begin?  I appreciate some of the conclusions Jehovah Witnesses have made in regard the king of the north, but not all.  Traditionally, Jehovah’s Witnesses have concluded the phrase “the time of the end” at Daniel 11:40 is a reference to particular events that occur during “the last days” which culminate in the king of the north’s end.   JW’s publications( see below) comment on Daniel 11:40 and include events that occurred right after October 1914, as well as events that occurred during the second world war and those that lead up to the great tribulation.  Based on this I believe “the time of the end” referred to at Daniel 11:40 is the when the appointed times of the nation’s/gentiles ends in 1914 and marks a battle for dominance by the kings of the north and south.  It also seems to include two times of assault upon ‘Daniel’s people’ by the king of the north. (Compare Da 11:41; 11:44-12:1)  JW’s have identified ‘Daniel’s people’ as particularly the “anointed” but this seems to include the “other sheep” as well.   Please, I request that we not get into a discussion on the end of the gentile times (Oct 1914) so as to not distract from the point of this topic

*** it-2 p. 1103 Time of the End *** / *** it-1 pp. 134-135 Appointed Times of the Nations *** / *** dp chap. 16 pp. 276-277 The Contending Kings Near Their End *** /  *** w93 11/1 pp. 19-20 The Final Victory / *** w54 12/1 p. 710 The “Time of the End” ***

 

The publications of JW’s already referenced, showed the assault of the bible students during WWI was as a consequence of this battle, but they did not attribute what happen during WWI to an assault by the KOTN. (Da l 11:40-43) Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the bible students initially identified Anglo America as king of the north because of persecution that began in Britain and Europe which climaxed in America in mid-1918.  Yet, because of the way Nazi Germany behaved during WWII perhaps JW’s felt Germany followed by the Soviet Union better matched the description of the king of the north rather than Anglo America.  The reality is Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union have passed off the scene of this world, being defeated by Anglo America and its ideologies. They were losers not winners.  

 

Really no world power is ever described in the literature of JW’s as dominating over Anglo America. They consistently describe Anglo America as dominating the world because of the way they viewed prophecy regarding that duel world power.  For example w12 6/15 pp. 16-17 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place says: “the Anglo-American World Power will not be replaced by some future world power”; … the Anglo-American World Power is the one that will be dominating when the “stone” representing God’s Kingdom hits the feet of the image.  And referring to the United Nations that same article stated: “Any power it has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11)”.  So in view of the success of Anglo America, wouldn’t it be reasonable to identify that world power as king of the north?  I have to wonder why Jehovah’s Witnesses have not already come to this conclusion.

 

Upon close examination Daniel 11:42, 43 may reveal how king of the north eventually conquers the king of the south, which Jehovah’s Witnesses may have failed to appreciate because of a flawed identity of the King of the North.  For example:  JW’s acknowledge that Anglo America will be the dominating world power right until the end and so conclude that the king of the south as Anglo America cannot be conquered.  Hence, they identified Nazi Germany and then the Soviet Union as the king of the north even after both of those world powers were destroyed or conquered by Anglo America while awaiting some other future political identity to fill the shoes of the king of the north. (Now I believe they view it as Russia, please correct me if I’m wrong on this)   However Daniel 11:42 seems to indicate the king of the south is conquered by the north and its precious resources become KOTN’s spoil.  For this reason it is not at all farfetched to view Anglo America as the world power who fits the description of the king of the north in Daniel 11:40-12:1

 

If Anglo America is the king of the north, then Daniel 11:40-43 revealed how “the land of the Decoration” (recognized by JW’s as the spiritual estate of the anointed remnant) was assaulted in a significant manner by KOTN shortly after the times of the gentile’s ends in 1914 as occurred in America during WWI.  This would mean the later part of the passage, Daniel 11:44, 45 is depicting a return by the king of the north near his end into “the land of the Decoration”.  Could this be associated with Anglo America using the UN disgusting thing to cause desolation to ‘Daniel’s people’, eventually standing that disgusting thing in a holy place associated with ‘Daniel’s people’?  (Compare Da 11:44, 45; 12:1 and Mt 24:15) There are hints in the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses toward this conclusion.

  

w15 5/15 p. 29 par. 4-p. 30 par. 1 Questions From Readers associated the “king of the north” with a future assault on God’s people by “Gog of Magog” (Ezekiel chapter 38) and the ‘ten kings’ of Revelation chapter 17, indicating the likelihood the king of the north will be leading a coalition of nations against Gods people.  Compare this to what was already quoted above in the w12 6/15 pp. 16-17 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place, there Anglo America is depicted as the key backer of the UN and is viewed as the dominant world power.  Consider too, as the following reference from re chap. 28 pp. 187-188 pars. 5-6 Contending With Two Ferocious Beasts points out; According to Jehovah’s witnesses Anglo America is identified in prophecy as the 7^th head of the wild beast because it ‘takes the lead in oppressing God’s people’.  These leave obvious clues that identify Anglo America as the king of the north

 

The direction of the KOTN and Anglo America toward the Decoration is very similar

 

There is something else that is very telling and indicated that Anglo America is the king of the north. It has to do with the direction of ‘the small horn that grows very great’ and the direction of the King of the North.  (Da 8:9-25; Da 11:40-12:1) The prophecy in Daniel chapter 8 about a “horn, a small one, that grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration” has been identified as Anglo America in JW’s publications. (Da 8:9)   To verify this see dp chap. 10 p. 173 par. 18 Who Can Stand Against the Prince of Princes?   There it said: “The small horn that became a fierce political power in the “time of the end,” then, is the Anglo-American World Power.”  Note according to Daniel 8:9-25 Anglo America is advancing from the north and from the west toward the south and east and toward the symbolic “Decoration”. 

 

Now compare the above to Daniel 11:40-12:1 and note the direction of the king of the north.  Like Anglo America, the king of the north too is coming from the north traveling south into “the land of the Decoration”.  Notice that after initially entering the land of Decoration the king of the north continues moving southwest out of Israel toward Egypt (the traditional land of the king of the south), and appears to conquer the King of the south, gaining control of all its precious resources.   Later, after conquering Egypt “reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him” and by driving his army northeast out of Egypt, he returns and enters the land of decoration a second time to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration”. (Da 11:44, 45)  When he returns to the land of the decoration he camps his army directly west of Jerusalem, with the intention of heading directly east into Jerusalem to conquer the city.

 

Daniel’s prophecy shows “the king of the north” and the ‘small horn that grows very great’ (Anglo America) advance in a similar general direction.  They are advancing from the north and west traveling south and east toward the “Decoration” or temple.  Does this not show the KOTN and Anglo America represent a dominating Western World power?  The underlying reason why JW’s may have failed to comprehend how the king of the north is pictured as conquering the king of the south in Daniel 11:42-43 is because they mistakenly viewed Anglo America as the king of the south even though they admit the bible does not depict Anglo America as being conquered and supplanted by another world power.  However if the king of the south is eventually subdued and conquered that can only leave Anglo America to be identified as the KOTN.  This seems like a relatively simple conclusion to reach.  

 

If Jehovah Witnesses continue to advocate that these prophecies of Daniel depict Anglo America as king of the south in a battle with the king of the north (which they identified as Germany and then the Soviet Union and now perhaps Russian) to conquer the other and the land of the Decoration, that argument is not sufficient enough to explain why both Anglo America and the king of the north are pictured in scripture as coming from the same general direction, from the north, driving there military south and east toward the Decoration.  Nor would it explain how the king of the north is pictured as eventually being victorious over the south and ruling over the treasures of Egypt.  More importantly, if they continue to view Anglo America as king of the south, the description at Daniel 11:40-45 would indicate another world power gains dominance over the world and “takes the lead in oppressing God’s people” which would be out of harmony with what they have already said concerning Anglo America’s domination as the seventh world power, as shown in the references quoted earlier.

 

The question is:  When the king of the north returns to Israel to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration” does this part of the prophecy depict the time when the UN disgusting thing causes desolation  to “a holy place” associated with ‘Daniel’s people’? (Da 11:45: 12:1)  This is very plausible.  We can see many similarities when we compare the king of the north’s actions in Daniel 11:44, 45 when “he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration” to what scripture reveals in Daniel 8:23-25 about Anglo America’s aggression against the holy ones in the “final part of their kingdom” when as “a fierce looking king” he “will stand up” and “bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones” and “he will even standing up against the Prince of princes.”   After a close examination of the language Daniel 11:44-12:1 and Daniel 8:9-25, it appears that both are speaking about the same thing, complimenting each other and providing greater insight into what leads up to “the standing in a holy place”?  (Mt 24:15)

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I personally care absolutely NOTHING whatsoever about anything to do with knowing who the "King of the North" is.

I first started learning about the "King of the North" at Assemblies, accompanying my mother, circa 1960, and took copious notes, including dozens of scriptures supporting all that was said.

Later, we were told that the identity of "The King of the North", had changed, and again it was backed up with dozens of scriptures supporting what was said.

In the intervening 60 years or so, we musta studied all about this 35 or more times, either in the Watchtower, or some book that we studied during the now defunct "Tuesday Night Bookstudy", at a Witnesses home. Then of course there were public talks at the Kingdom Hall, etc. etc.

I, frankly, only scanned the above post, then realized as Rhett Butler said to Scarlet O'Hara in the movie "Gone With The Wind",

"Frankly, Scarlett .. I don't give a damn".

Such esoteric, useless things cloud our minds to the point we cannot concentrate on the things that are REALLY important, such as:

James 1:27 New International Version (NIV)

^" Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

 

Further, even if I DID know who the King of The North" is, there is absolutely NOTHING I can do about it, except sit back and watch.

... and my left eye starts twitching, and I start drooling if you dare mention "Gog of Magog".

 

[Kosonen]

7 hours ago, KevinM said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the bible students initially identified Anglo America as king of the north because of persecution that began in Britain and Europe which climaxed in America in mid-1918.  

This persecution did evidently not match up to fulfill prophecies in Daniel. The Proclaimers book give a wholly different picture of the situation for the WT organization during 1914 to 1919.

Proclaimers book jv: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101993007

"Through the close of 1917 and into 1918, the Bible Students energetically distributed the new book, The Finished Mystery. By the end of 1917, the printers were busy on the 850,000 edition. The Watch Tower of December 15, 1917, reported: “The sale of the Seventh Volume is unparallelled by the sale of any other book known, in the same length of time, excepting the Bible.”

"But not everyone was thrilled with the success of The Finished Mystery. The book contained some references to the clergy of Christendom that were very cutting. This so angered the clergy that they urged the government to suppress the publications of the Bible Students. As a result of this clergy-inspired opposition, early in 1918, The Finished Mystery was banned in Canada. Opposition soon mounted against the Bible Students in the United States." (End of quote)

During the time the leading brothers were in prison the activity continued at the WT organization. The Proclaimers book goes on to tell: 

"Back in Brooklyn an Executive Committee was appointed to take charge of the work. A chief concern of the brothers appointed was to keep The Watch Tower in circulation. The Bible Students everywhere certainly needed all the spiritual encouragement that could be given them. In fact, during this entire “testing season,” not one issue of The Watch Tower failed to appear in print!*"

(.......)

Nevertheless, a good spirit prevailed. Martha Meredith recalled: “We in Pittsburgh got together and decided we were going to keep ‘the home fires burning’ until the brethren got out of prison. At that time the Brooklyn office was moved to Pittsburgh, so the brethren got busy writing articles for The Watch Tower and had it printed. When The Watch Towers were ready to be sent out, we sisters wrapped them and sent them out to the people.”(End of quote)

So where was the dashing in to pieces in 1914-1919? According to Daniel 12:7 ‘It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.’” (Daniel 12:7)

[Kosonen]

7 hours ago, KevinM said:

Please, I request that we not get into a discussion on the end of the gentile times (Oct 1914) so as to not distract from the point of this topic

KevinM, to be able to understand the prophecies about the end time, it is necessary to understand when they begin and when they don't. The best thing to do is to detach from 1914. It is only then you can get prophecies in the Bible in harmony with realities. And most of the end time prophecies have not even begun to take place because they will take place during the final "time, times and half a time."

[Kosonen]

8 hours ago, KevinM said:

So in view of the success of Anglo America, wouldn’t it be reasonable to identify that world power as king of the north?

Yes, I agree.

And you have come to a similar conclusion about the king of the north as an other anointed brother. You might be interested to read his article about that. Here is the link:

http://perimeno.ca/Letters_1215_king_of_the_north.htm

[JW Insider]

16 hours ago, KevinM said:

OR I can’t figure out how, (I requested support and have not received any yet). 

I just went to that topic for the first time, and it looks like an admin locked it. Too bad, it might have been entertaining.

16 hours ago, KevinM said:

At Daniel 11:40, the battle between the “king of the north” (KOTN) and “the king of the south”(KOTS)  is marked by the angel’s reference to “the time of the end”.

I can understand how JTR feels about this topic, as it has been played out so many times with various interpretations. I have a great interest in what it would have meant to the Bible writers who included the idea, what it would have meant to the first hearers and readers. All scripture is beneficial for teaching, and things that befell earlier generations of God's people were often written as warning examples for the rest of us in later generations. This does not mean we must find a later "fulfillment," specifically, but we should be able to discern warnings, examples, and lessons for our day, because we all go through similar trials. There is nothing new under the sun.

16 hours ago, KevinM said:

When does this particular “time of the end” begin?

The Bible clearly speaks of the last days starting in the first century. Paul warned Timothy about why persons in Timothy's congregation(s) were acting the way they were (men will be lovers of themselves, without natural affection, not open to any agreement, etc.).  Paul explained to Timothy that this was to be expected back there in the first century because they were living in the "last days" when "critical times hard to deal with" were to be expected. Peter and Jude also explain that people in the first century would be ridiculing the "delay" of the parousia. And the reason this was expected was that Jesus had predicted that such attitudes would be prevalent in the last days. The book of Hebrews starts out identifying the time the Christians were living in as "the last days." (The exact same expression "last days" found in Timothy.) Peter reads Joel's prophecy in Acts 2 to explain that what happened at Pentecost was a sign of the last days. And John in his letters identifies those times as the last days. Even the book of Revelation speaks of how Daniel was a sealed up book, but it is being revealed through John because they had now reached the last days when it was time for those prophecies to be unsealed.

So there was something very "big" about the fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century. This was the generation that saw the judgment which meant the transferring of the Messianic kingdom over to Christians who needed not to have ever been involved in Judaism. This was the birth of a new nation. It was every bit as important to world history as when Jehovah chose Abraham for a promised nation to come from his loins.

That generation likely saw the major fulfillment of all those prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation and Matthew 23 and 24. The fulfillment left for us is the overall "lesson" that Israel went through, but I don't think that we should be looking for any additional specific fulfillments. If there were additional fulfillments to look for today, prior to Armageddon, then the day could not come as a thief. (Of course, there MIGHT be specific fulfillments predicted in Scripture, but if so, they should not be of the kind that we could discern in advance or else this would conflict with the Great Day coming as a thief.)

Of course, some will argue that even if specific prophecies are not predictable by the world (in darkness) that Paul said that the day should not overtake us (children of light) as a thief would. But that doesn't refer to prophecy, it just means that we are not going to be overwhelmed with fear, because we expect it at any time, and are prepared in the sense that we continue to watch the kind of person we ought to be at all times. But it still comes as a thief, even while persons are commenting on how things are peaceful and secure. Jesus and Peter say the same thing when they spoke of how life would be going on just as it was in Noah's day and Lot's day, as things had always gone on "from creation's beginning" until now.

Also, I think if we look closely at Daniel, Revelation, etc., that it becomes even clearer that we have no need to try to identify any current players as King of the North or South.

[Kosonen]

Now there is a new WT edition dealing with who is the King of the North.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/library/r1/lp-e/all-publications/watchtower/the-watchtower-2020/study-edition/may

Unfortunately there is hardly anything that is true in those explanations. The WT argues that the king that persecutes JWs in Russia is this king of the north in Daniel 11:29-45.

The real truth is that USA will play out those prophecies about the king of the north in those scriptures.

Those scriptures speak about a total defeat of the WT organization, and not a partial defeat in a single country such as Russia.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Kosonen:

I seriously doubt if ANYTHING you have said is true, or relevant to the REAL world, except perhaps a reference to what others have written ... which has its OWN problems.

Theology is like dandruff ... some people just like to play with it.

 

[Kosonen]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Kosonen:

I seriously doubt if ANYTHING you have said is true, or relevant to the REAL world, except perhaps a reference to what others have written ... which has its OWN problems.

Theology is like dandruff ... some people just like to play with it.

 

Ok, 

[Raphael]

All the facts point to Anglo America as the king of the North.

Look up all attributes of that king and you’ll get there. More: this could have been clearly seen well 80 years ago or more. There is more to it than just a fact. There is a huge impact in our life very soon based on that knowledge as you will very very well understand the illustrations Jesus made about the field and the wheat and weed…..right up to the end.

[Guest]

No, Anglo-America is not the king of the north.

But the UN does figure into some of those other verses in Daniel mentioned.

 

The US/UK beasts become the UN. The US/UK is the primary power behind the UN, as shown in Revelation. (The LambHornedBeast/US-UK breathes life into the UN Beast in Revelation.)

 

The context of the verses in Daniel show which king is being referred to in the vision.

 

"He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

 

This is from Daniel chapter 7, the vision with the four beasts (Lion/Babylon, Bear/MedoPersia, Leopard/Greece, BigUglyBeastie/US-UK-UN). The last BigUglyBeastie becomes the UN when for 3 1/2 years it harasses God's people during the great tribulation.

 

 The next set of verses is from Daniel chapter 8:

 

"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up.  His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.  And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

 

This was a different vision with the Ram/MedoPersia vs Goat/Greece. (One horn becomes the king of the south from Daniel 11 prophecy.) This big horn becomes the UN, soon he will fulfill this part: "with a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up." The UN will stand up against the Prince of princes when he attacks the holy ones during the great tribulation. When Daniel chapter 8 is talking about desolation for 2,300 evenings and mornings, it is talking about a time period during the great tribulation. "An evening, a morning, one day." 2,300 evenings and mornings equals 1,150 days. 

 

"And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?”  So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”"

 

"What was said in the vision about the evenings and the mornings is true, but you must keep the vision secret, for it refers to a time many days from now.”

 

After the UN begins the initial attack on religion, there will be 1,150 days before true religion is restored.

 

The next set of verses is not talking about the US-UK-UN (the king of the south). The next set is talking about the king of the north:

 

"But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction.  And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

 

Putin is the king of the north described here. He's disturbed by reports out of the east (Asia) and the north (elements in Russia like Wagner and others) and he is going out in a great rage to annihilate and destroy. He has already been persecuting the holy ones in Russia. He is coming to his end and there is no helper for him.

 

"During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book."

 

Jesus was not enthroned as king earlier in last century. While all these shenanigans are going on, Jesus will be enthroned. He will cast Satan out of heaven. Satan will get the UN riled up to attack religion, and Jehovah will allow religion to be attacked because the angels will stop holding back the restraint referred to in Revelation:

 

"After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,  saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”"

 

Since the anointed are all sealed at this time, and since the lawless one is revealed in the congregation (the governing body and the false teachings) and since Putin is fulfilling the king of the north last prophecy there, we know the time is near for the great tribulation to break loose.

 

"Jehovah is the Revealer of Secrets"

 

Praise Jah.

[Moise Racette]

Oh! Yes, Reviving one of @Pudgy favorite subjects of failure to understand scripture.