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Pudgy

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The Denver Post doesn't make any sense. If the pair was working together to harm Witnesses at the Kingdom hall, like Bonnie and Clyde, they would have died like Bonnie and Clyde, not murder-suicide.

But, just like anything that sparks speculation by disenchanted witnesses here, why don't people just invoke their right to free speech and be brave enough to let the Org know how they really feel about it. Then look to start your own religion, just like Some Israelites did when they started worshiping Baal.

Also, wordplay with the word "murder" doesn't make a difference.

(Matthew 5:21) 21 “You heard that it was said to those of ancient times: ‘You must not murder, but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.. . .
 

Let's not start misrepresenting scripture to the public in what is considered self-defense to a Christian of Faith. Should Jesus have used the self-defense ideology to preserve his life?

It appears, this topic should have been entered in the "closed forum" so illogical participants could air their complaints about the Org in a private group setting.

The difference with Murder is, even thought you might NOT be judged by man's law with self-defense, you won't escape God's judgment, since God still considers it murder.

(James 2:10, 11) 10 For if anyone obeys all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against all of it. 11 For the one who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law. . .

Once again, let's not combine man's law and the bible with our own belief to justify an erred assumption. Murder is murder to God, justified or not, and a person will be judged for taking the life of another by God, justified or not.

That is why, people cannot apply that hypothetical in wartime to justify murder through war in order to preserve ones own life. Simply put, we should not place ourselves in a position to be judged just like those two individuals if they had a sinful motive.
 

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Often this happens when the person has reached a resolution to follow through, given their first opportunity. Their paralyzing dilemma resolved, they can give the appearance that all is completely wel

Where is your respect for truthful speech?!  Every single news report told that Police said that they were MARRIED and FORMER MEMBERS of the Congregation.  Why the contentious spirit?  Who are you

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47 minutes ago, Moise Racette said:

Murder is murder to God, justified or not, and a person will be judged for taking the life of another by God, justified or not.

I don't think anybody here is disputing that.

The thing is, the man was obviously not of sound mind to take such drastic action. The question is, what got him into this desperate state? Or was he already unstable and something happened that was the last straw that broke the camels back? What is clear is as Amidsttheroses says; he sent a strong message.

What was he trying to say is what I would like to know.

(I agree, this topic should be moved to the closed club.

Would you mind @JW Insiderwhen you have a moment? Thank you!)

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

The thing is, the man was obviously not of sound mind to take such drastic action. The question is, what got him into this desperate state? Or was he already unstable and something happened that was the last straw that broke the camels back? What is clear is as Amidsttheroses says; he sent a strong message.

What is the psychology of Satan to use imperfection to his advantage? Should any witness be surprised? The fact you have forums, such as this one promoting negative things about the Org and it's members, gives people emotional ammunition to justify their behavior.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/15/caller-threatens-mass-shooting-at-kingdom-hall-of-jehovahs-witnesses/

https://www.unionleader.com/news/crime/police-man-accused-of-shooting-up-jehovahs-witness-kingdom-hall-was-there-to-commit-suicide/article_9599604c-5685-5e22-9a29-cffac8dd2e02.html

https://www.kiro7.com/news/south-sound-news/shots-fired-into-kingdom-hall-of-jehovahs-witnesses/750155526/

I second the motion on moving this topic. I feel, there should at least be one place for scholarly bible discussions.

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12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I prefer leaving it here where people who have already read it and weighed in can continue to do so. Maybe just start another version of the same topic over there?

I think Pudgy already has it in the closed club too, but everyone started commenting on it here. Probably because they didn't notice what club it was. I didn't straight away..

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If you research the Hebrew word for “murder” the analysis is quite extensive.

There is a world of difference between “justifiable homicide” and “murder”. 

Self defense is justifiable homicide.

If you prefer, you can always let the scumbag KILL YOU and/or your family and friends instead. 

It was common practice during Jesus’ time for all men to be armed, all the time …. Especially fishermen.

Or do you think that for 3-1/2 years Jesus did not notice that at least two Apostles and those fishermen Apostles carried knives and swords?

if someone is trying to kill you, and you defend yourself and kill him first, yes there is BLOODGUILT.

His blood is on his OWN HANDS, not yours.…

.….. much better than having YOUR blood all over the parking lot.

I strongly suspect when at least two Apostles were carrying their personal swords, they were not also carrying over sized spoons and forks.

 

 

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@JW Insider I don't mind if you remove or delete my comments in order for this topic to go into "JW Closed Forum" I believe all the participants and posters here, aside from me are already members of that JW closed forum where even a d'fd person that is liked can participate unimpeded.

That's not the value of scripture with its application, but friendship of man, before God, is the norm in that forum.

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Then the poster doesn't understand the biblical implication of what murder means to God. That opinion of murder in the eyes of man is meaningless.

That salty application also indicates, the poster has no faith in God's promise of resurrection. Human value.

ESV | 1 Ch 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have waged great wars. You shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood before me on the earth. 

God's righteous Justice is indisputable, not for any man.

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Moise:

You are confusing two entirely different principles.

In the Bible, and today among every nation on Earth, warfare is NEVER CONSIDERED TO BE MURDER.

OTHERWISE … there could never be peace!

…..be a sport.

Actually look it up.

(…. and as an aside, you always revert to ad hominem attacks when your arguments are failing.)

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It's sad, posters confuse scripture to make their own understanding justified. I guess the same can be said about the incident in question. Somehow, human imperfection will always play a role in Satan's world.

Never understood how, "truth" can be ad hominem. Must be logic when those attacks are made in form of a cartoon.

1 Corinthians 15:33

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FYI - In my congregation we had two suicides, and our sister congregation had a couple who drove off to Florida and gassed themselves. One of the suicides was a fellow young elder and that was really hard and I didn't see it coming. The other one was a young man who took some sleeping pills and drowned himself. The couple I didn't know other than in passing and I got a mental vibe off them like there was something wrong with them before it happened. The young man who took some sleeping pills was a missed opportunity. I felt bad about him because he kept "making up" stuff to confess to and I tried to explain to him that the things he was doing weren't great, but didn't rise to the level of judicial intervention. At the time I was just really exhausted. I was working full time, pioneering, handling the school and I was just used up. I didn't have the band width to deal w/needy. Maybe I should have made room, but he had another brother who was doing OK and his parents and it's not like I was the only elder available. He wasn't even in my book study.

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    • That was convoluted and strange. I assume it was that way on purpose. I have not tried to refute anything from VAT 4956. My "acceptance" of the evidence from VAT 4956 is not the same thing as "refuting" it. Unless you are doing that thing again where you say you can use words to mean whatever you want. Now you are doing that thing again where you hope to imply that the stance of 100% of the current "authorities" and "experts" the Watchtower has quoted just happen to agree with COJ. So, in order to make it easier to dismiss the conclusions of all those experts, you need to point out that those experts agree with COJ, therefore you can dismiss their conclusions.  This is not just stupid. It's dishonest because you have done it before. It's also hypocritical because you have never once ever been able to point out even one sentence from his GTR book that was wrong. When you finally did attempt to prove he was wrong about something, you picked his reference to Nabopolassar's years mentioned in the "Chronicles," you ended up inadvertently showing that COJ was perfectly accurate. That must have been embarrassing. As you know, COJ has nothing to do with this discussion. From now on, instead of referring to COJ directly, I think we should just refer call him, "the person that George88 has shown to be accurate." In fact, until you can show even one inaccurate sentence, that's how I will refer to "COJ, the person that George88 has shown to be accurate."
    • Try not to manipulate my words with your usual tactics. I said: "I’m sure you know by now that there is absolutely nothing in the diary indicating the year 588." I said this in direct response to your claim that the events on the tablet indicated 588. You said that the events on the tablet indicated 588. You said: "You can reference VAT 4956." . . .  "Why is this so significant? Pay extremely close attention to the language inscribed on this tablet" . . . "Year 37 of Nebukadnezzar, King of Babylon. Month I," . .  "Additional reports in this Diary include . . . Borsippa, . . . .This indicates that the conflict in that region in 588 . . . " No, you didn't actually say that. Besides I have no argument about 587. I only point out that ALL the astronomical evidence from the entire period shows that this was Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year. You have never made an argument (either valid or invalid) that "my argument about 587 can also be interpreted as 588."  Not that it matters in the least, but Borsippa is NOT way further in distance from Jerusalem. It's about 10 miles CLOSER "as the crow flies" and nearly the same distance using the usual travel routes of the time. Perhaps that's why no one mentioned it before. However, even here, I have already posted the entire contents of the tablet, including the reference to Borsippa. Not that it matters.  I certainly hope so!
    • That's completely false. You invariably attempt to weasel your way out of your false statements by claiming that someone has distorted your words. You make false claims about them and claim that they are the ones in the wrong. Then you bluster with some barely-related material hoping it impresses someone (or yourself) into thinking you are some kind of expert or authority. That barely-related material you make use of invariably says nearly the opposite of what you had claimed, which you should have known had you just read the context, or understood what you were reading.  I'll get to the specifics at a later time on this particular point, but it is nearly the same as with almost all these matters. I have learned to expect you to NEVER admit an error, no matter how much evidence is shown. I don't expect you to admit your error on these recent points, but your "style" provides a revealing display of the lengths people will go to, in order to support a pseudo-chronology.   
    • In response to your email, it is important to note that the Watchtower chronology begins at 4026, adhering closely to the numerical indications in scripture. The significant distinction lies in the fact that not everyone begins at 4026; some might commence their chronology at 4004, for instance. Consequently, this creates a noticeable gap between those who employ different starting points for their chronologies. Consider that the new Bible Students have rejected Russell's starting point and instead adjusted it to align with Modern Israel. They have suggested a year around 3954, or something like that, I can't remember, but it seems unfounded. Some of their sects started Criticizing Russell about this matter, and it appears unjustified, as their own knowledge may be limited. Following the Watchtower's guidance is straightforward: align events with their corresponding numerical values. It is important to remember that the Watchtower does not view its chronology as an absolute, unlike secular chronology which seeks to impose its perspective. According to the Watchtower, the pivotal date for the divided kingdom is 997. Look it up in our archives and publications.  The Watchtower's chronology will always diverge from conventional chronology due to its distinctive starting point. The organization holds steadfast to the numbers in the Bible, guided by faith in scripture rather than human interpretations. Despite persistent challenges, the unwavering stance of the Watchtower remains unchanged, as it is grounded in divine guidance, not the opinions of anonymous and faithless individuals.
    • Consider this: if we assume that the tablet dated back to 568 refers to Nebuchadnezzar, and that the king issued an order for Borsippa, a city 12-15 miles from Babylon, then it suggests that King Nebuchadnezzar might have been in his palace giving that order, since logically it would have taken weeks or a month or so for a runner to dispatch such an order from Judah that was for Borsippa in 588/587, as historically suggested, since we can use the same date 588/587 for that event.
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