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James Thomas Rook Jr.

What is a Christian Man's MORAL responsibility to protect his own life, or that of his immediate or spiritual family?

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James Thomas Rook Jr. -
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SCENARIO:  You are at a packed Kingdom Hall on Memorial night, and ten minutes into the remembrance talk, six masked people with weapons enter the Kingdom Hall and begin shooting everyone they can, without any conversation.  

You are shot in the left side of your face and most of those teeth are gone.

Before you know what is going on twelve Brothers and Sisters have been shot, screaming and panic ensues, and there is blood and bodies and brains all over, and the shooting continues.

Would it be fitting for a Brother  to use his handgun to return fire on the murderers to try and save his own life, or the lives of his Brothers and Sisters?

Or, in PubSpeak ... "Would it be fitting for a Christian to keep a firearm, such as a handgun or a rifle, for protection against other humans?" ( July 2017 Watchtower )

This raises MANY Theocratic, moral, ethical, legal, and Societial policy questions ... all of which have REAL answers. 

What is the RIGHT thing for a responsible Christian to do?

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I would not hesitate to be the judge, jury and executioner right then and there in that situation. I would even try to keep my teeth ;-)

And the law would be on my side.

Do Kingdom Halls prohibit you from carrying weapons?

I'm not even sure what Catholic churches say about carrying weapons inside them.

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Yeah, my working assumption is that in order to be a Theocratic man, FIRST you have to be a man.   There are too many males ... not enough men.

Besides, it is MORALLY WRONG to even ASK a Babylonian police officer to put his life on the line to defend yours ...if YOU WILL NOT DEFEND YOUR OWN LIFE.

In this scenario, it would not even matter, as by the time the police arrived, the Kingdom Hall would be filled with bodies, and a lake of blood.

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Well, it's very sad but such a scenario wouldn't justify a Christian coming with firearms to the Kingdom Hall, Jehovah's place of worship or even keeping one for that matter. I think you are examining the Bible's teachings from a physical point of view that is why two verses are pertinent for you to consider.

1. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 that says:

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14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

2. Psalm 34:7 that says:

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 7 The angel of Jehovah camps all around those fearing Him, And he rescues them.

Thanks 

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Nnaemeka:

I think all the Apostles might disagree with you, Nnaemeka, because as Luke 22:36 points out, the APOSTLES BROUGHT THEIR OWN PERSONAL SWORDS TO THE PASSOVER, AND MEMORIAL.

Or do you think that Jesus, after being with the Apostles for somewhere around THREE YEARS, never noticed the swords, and long expensive fishing knives they carried, as did almost all Galilean males?

When is the last time YOU rented a dining room, and over in the corner, were two expensive swords, each made from hand-mined metal and shaped and beaten into an individually hand made AND EXPENSIVE swords by a blacksmith ?

Peter and at LEAST one other Apostle had their personal swords with them .... AT THE MEMORIAL.

Hint: Life is simpler when you use plain old common sense, AND you do not have to use irrelevant to the topic references to support a bogus agenda.

.

 

 

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... and then there is the morally bankrupt position of not allowing a Brother to protect his own life ...or YOURS ... but calling on paid Babylonian Policemen to risk their lives for yours, in mortal combat ... something you are not willing to do for yourself.

To my mind, that is how professional COWARDS think.

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Nnaemeka:

I think all the Apostles might disagree with you, Nnaemeka, because as Luke 22:36 points out, the APOSTLES BROUGHT THEIR OWN PERSONAL SWORDS TO THE PASSOVER, AND MEMORIAL.

Or do you think that Jesus, after being with the Apostles for somewhere around THREE YEARS, never noticed the swords, and long expensive fishing knives they carried, as did almost all Galilean males?

When is the last time YOU rented a dining room, and over in the corner, were two expensive swords, each made from hand-mined metal and shaped and beaten into an individually hand made AND EXPENSIVE swords by a blacksmith ?

Peter and at LEAST one other Apostle had their personal swords with them .... AT THE MEMORIAL.

Hint: Life is simpler when you use plain old common sense, AND you do not have to use irrelevant to the topic references to support a bogus agenda.

.

 

 

You should realize that Jesus was aware that there were so many things his apostles had to learn and overcome such as fear of man and the customs they grew up with. Jesus did not set out correcting every fault they had instantly but when the occasion arises. Realize that in the Luke 22 you quoted when the apostles showed him two sword he answered them: "It is enough." He went on to emphasize that their confidence should not lie in weapons when he laid down a principle before them right at the moment when Peter cut off Malchus' ears. This was stated in Matthew 26:52 thus:

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52 Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. 

Jesus admonished Peter for using one of those swords. Just picture this scenario with the one you pointed out in your original post. They are both similar. But Jesus reproved Peter for falling on a weapon to protect himself and his master. Jesus laid a principle that all his followers will do well to follow. Jesus then in the next verse showed why it is wrong to do as you imagined in your original post scenario - that is, bring weapons to the Kingdom Hall. He emphasized to his disciples that he had legions at his beck and call - invisible spirit weapons - but in this time of death, he did not and would not use it when he said in Matthew 26:53 thus:

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53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels? 

That idea above, allowing Jehovah's will to be done irrespective if your life is in danger, does not show Jesus to be a coward as you contend. Or do you think he also is one? I doubt it. Jesus was bold and courageous to exercise self control at the darkest moment in his life and he never flinched from his resolve. We do well to follow his steps closely as Peter urges in 1 Peter 2:21.

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I was taught the same way that @Nnaemeka explained so well above.

I also see the practicality of @James Thomas Rook Jr. position on weapons in general.

--------------

Questions still stuck in my head are:

Jesus could summon the 12 legions... but I cannot. = I get to carry a "sword"?

Was Jesus reproving Peter for acting on the offensive? would a defensive use of his sword only been ok?

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The reason I ask these questions is that in a world where every 3rd person and his grandma is carrying.... when that one lunatic shows up at the KH one day I would like someone there to be able to fire back.

It would be hypocritical of me to say that it is wrong to carry such a firearm and then be glad JTR had one on his person.

---------

After the bombing of the Kingdom Hall in Australia we see that there were no legions of angels dispatched to protect that congregation. 

Leaving me to ponder these questions still.

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FYI - I do not carry or own a gun. I barely know how to fire one correctly. I do have a "dagger" camping (Rambo style) knife kept in a closet somewhere that I bought at a camping store. (I can't say that I know how to even fight with a knife either)

 

It may be that we live in a fiercer world where us older (I use that term reluctantly since I am only 45) JW men may need to "toughen up" and learn to protect ourselves.

 

I think sometimes about Abraham (God's friend) and his ARMY.... or David and his ARMY.... or Solomon with his NAVY...

 

Good discussion everyone.

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I have carried weapons all my adult life, and my biggest crime was driving around a barricaded road when I knew the road construction to be completed, and good ( I designed roads for a living for many years...), and I got a ticket that cost $240.

Although my arsenal may scare the timid, I do NOT "live by the sword", and never have.  I even take spiders outside, assuming they are lost, so they do not starve to death.

Peter was being admonished not to GET INTO A BATTLE,  offensively,  and after he demonstrated that he was NOT going to let Jesus be murdered by an illegal night time mob (by cutting off the ear of the slave of the High Priest...) ... WITH THE SWORD HE WAS COMMANDED TO BRING WITH HIM ...  Jesus said the DEMONSTRATION was enough ... an ear cut off bleeds like a faucet turned on.

It has always been common knowledge that I "carry", and so far, to the best of my knowledge, in a half century, it has never stumbled ANYONE, even Elders who asked me about it, and in three different congregations throughout the U.S.A., I was called into "Room 101" before the triumvirate and questioned.

The last time it went something like this ...

"Um... Brother Rook, it has come to our attention that you carry a gun....um... is this true?"

"Yes, it is."

"Um, er... Brother Rook, uh.. are you carrying one now?"

"Yes, I am."

This is where they don't know what to say next ... there  are looks all around, and then after a pause,  they stand up, I stand up, they extend their hands, thank me for my time, and we all go out into the main Hall and go about our business.

When I go into a new Congregation, those elders that don't know I carry a firearm, I hand a prepared letter informing them that I do ... and it has NEVER, anywhere in the USA, created the SLIGHTEST ripple or complaint from ANYONE, in over 50 years. 

I have had elderly Sisters ask me about  security for them, and I always advise them NOT to be armed, as you have to have a certain mindset to use weapons responsibly.  

If you are scared of the responsibility, best to be a victim, than make someone else a victim by your own hand.

When we returned to the KH after Field Service, I did go to the trunk of my car and gave her a child's baseball bat I kept there, and explained how NOT to use it for self-defense ( a whole other story) ...

I agree with the Society's position that Elders, Ministerial Servants, and those in authority should NOT be armed ... I have yet to meet an Elder, etc., that could handle the responsibility necessary, or have the mindset.

I disagree with the rest that creates a mindset of cowardice.

I am un-apologetically NOT a sheep ... I am a Sheepdog, and all that implies.

It's even my job to protect Snowflakes, who think 7 minutes to an armed policeman  is faster than  a 1700fps defense, 30 feet away.

.

 

 

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Everyone has to live with his or her conscience but it is a protection to adhere to the advice of the faithful and discreet slave. Although someone could point to the violence in the world as a rational for why he should carry, the scriptures have consistently advised us to rely on Jehovah both spiritually and physically. When Peter attacked Malchus he must have been thinking: "Attack is the best form of defense. Look at the large crowd with swords and clubs from the high priest. If I attack first, it would be a signal for Jesus to use his power to help us." Jesus would have none of that. He relied on Jehovah. And we should do.

I heard of the story of a Kingdom Hall bombed in Australia. It was very sad. It's part of the signs of the last days but that would not be a rationale for us to take to arms. One of the fruitage of the spirit is self-control. That is what we need in occasions like this when we find ourselves under threat. Against the natural inclination to take arms and fight back, we prefer to leave it in the hands of the authorities. That is Godly wisdom. Remember King Hezekiah. Despite the fact that he was staring at death in the face when Sennacherib besieged Jerusalem, he relied on Jehovah. We want to do the same.

Come to think of it. Would you say that because many politicians are corrupt that you'd go into politics because as a Christian you'd bring about the needed changes? That would be a natural inclination of every human. But the bible shows consistently that Christians should not engage in politics. As a Christian you'd want to follow bible principles. That is the same with the firearms issue. We want to follow bible principles rather than our natural inclination.

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Nnaemeka:

The phrase comes to mind, paraphrased ... " ... If a man does not take care of his own, he is worse than a man without the faith."  To me that means spiritual education, food, shelter, secular education, and when necessary DEFENSE.

An incompetent defense is no defense at all, and a MAN is supposed to know the difference.

I almost cried when I read your post, as when I was young I too was an idealist, and I miss the old me .... but I am 70 plus years old and have been all over the world, and seen hundreds of times , and sometimes been a part of the travesty, to my everlasting shame, how people with the very best of intentions  give BAD advice, and wrap it in a sarcophagus of scriptural references that ALMOST apply,  and with honest hearts, and the very best of intentions, ruin people's lives .

Been there ... done that. 

In all my years of watching and carefully noting the affairs of men, in and out of the Brotherhood, I have NEVER, EVER seen Jehovah intervene to protect anyone from evil, and have seen Brothers and Sisters infinitely better Theocrats than I am cut down.

In World War II, and even in Malawi, there is ZERO examples of God rescuing ANY individual person ... except in liberal fantasy not connected with what is REAL.  ZERO real evidence.

Zero ... none ...  nada ... goose eggs.

Apparently this ceased during the times of the Early Christians.

I am NOT going to even try to dissuade you from your faith, because right or wrong, Jehovah gives us full credit for what we do to the best of our ability with the conscience we have at any particular point in time.

Half of your first sentence I will take to heart ... as we all have to live with our conscience.    I am NOT a sheep person. I am a Sheepdog to my bones, and if I am wrong, Jehovah will judge me appropriately ... but I would rather die forever than allow innocent people to be harmed, especially my immediate family, the whole association of the Brotherhood, or even the clueless Snowflake beset upon by evil ... when I consider it my responsibility to protect these people, and myself ... if I can.

I did not exist for 14.5 or so BILLION YEARS, and it bothered me not in the slightest ... If I am not resurrected because of who I am, the Brotherhood will be better off without me.

FAMILY COMES FIRST!

For me, if I shirk this responsibility, I am not a man .... merely a BORG with male plumbing.

.

 

 

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22 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

because as Luke 22:36 points out, the APOSTLES BROUGHT THEIR OWN PERSONAL SWORDS TO THE PASSOVER, AND MEMORIAL.

This scripture is stating that JESUS said to go sell their coat and buy a sword! 

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Think about this:

When you are reclining ( sitting) at a dining room table bench, you take off your weapons but keep them close by.

When "Jesus said to THEM..." he was talking to ALL the Apostles, as their weapons were not evidently ON THEIR PERSON. Sitting down with a sword is ...um.. problematic, as you can visualize, and it was considered an insult to others to be armed at the dining table as well.

... but here is the clincher ....

NO ONE left the room to sell anything, and Peter produced two swords in seconds.

It took a blacksmith, once he had the metal, about a week of hard labor to make a sword .... NOBODY just "had them laying around", any more than I would deliberately leave an expensive camera OR A .45 CALIBER HANDGUN in a rented dining room.

Upon reflection, Jesus said the two swords were "enough", as they were NOT going to war, merely confronting a cowardly illegal mob who would chill when faced with seeing their own blood, which they did.

Oh... the clincher ... almost forgot...

WHERE DID THE TWO SWORDS COME FROM?

... the Apostles brought them with them to the Passover and the Memorial.

.

 

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TTH:

This is your THIRD split personality, assuming TTH is the real one.

The reason you do not joke about THESE things is the same reason at the Airport you do not yell across the concourse to your friend "HI JACK!".

At best you may find yourself in the rubber room with the size 400 sleeves that tie in the back.

Worst case scenario ... you may want to look up some local Bail Bondsmen .... just in case.

Spider Farm.jpg

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With all the ramping up of violence, there will be time for men to make those decisions. I too am not a sheep, not to allow callous violence if I can avert it. I will with deadly force protect my family. Without hesitation, that is a given. My wife already knows this. No questions asked. 

Now if the situation is like the drama during the convention, where our faith is being tested, there will be some restraint. But just out and out violence for evil sake, no way will I just lay down and take it.

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8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is your THIRD split personality, assuming TTH is the real one.

The reason you do not joke about THESE things

Sorry. It was cognitive dissonance or something making Ed trouble. It's just hard for him to get his head around the image of packing a gun at the Kingdom Hall. It may be that he's had too much of this Bible stuff about Jesus telling Peter to put his sword down. Ed is a bit of a nutcase and I'll try to keep him in check.

You are a regular here, this is your thread, and I usually avoid intruding upon that. Sorry again.

 

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@John Houston... I understand your line of thinking.

Then next logical line of thought (or questioning) would be....

Knowing that violence and conflict will eventually reach your doorstep....

Should you PREPARE for such a violent day and actually have a chance at winning the fight? or like a novice warrior fumble as I would with some gun which I barely know how to use?

The same question could be use in regards to martial arts. knives, swords etc...

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I'm guessing the Apostle Peter knew how to use a sword better than I do currently. 

--------------------------------

Even Judge Rutherford had armed bodyguards. We haven't gone back to those days in my lifetime however.

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On 5/29/2017 at 7:09 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I agree with the Society's position that Elders, Ministerial Servants, and those in authority should NOT be armed ... I have yet to meet an Elder, etc., that could handle the responsibility necessary, or have the mindset.

So. Call the elders girliemen, will you?

Those split personalities you fussed about? You ain't seen nothing yet.

On 5/29/2017 at 0:14 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Besides, it is MORALLY WRONG to even ASK a Babylonian police officer to put his life on the line to defend yours ...if YOU WILL NOT DEFEND YOUR OWN LIFE

Do the 'Babylonian police officers' themselves agree with this?

Is it also true with plumbers? Is it true with fire fighters? Is it true with heart surgeons? It is morally wrong to ask a professional to do his job?

 

 

On 5/29/2017 at 0:14 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In this scenario, it would not even matter, as by the time the police arrived, the Kingdom Hall would be filled with bodies, and a lake of blood

I'm sorry, I know I should butt out because nothing is impossible. But there is too much of a 'Boy's Life' component to all this and it draws me in against my will. "Eagle Scout Saves the Sissies! Shows meaning of the motto 'Be Prepared!'"

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1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

Knowing that violence and conflict will eventually reach your doorstep....

Should you PREPARE for such a violent day and actually have a chance at winning the fight? or like a novice warrior fumble as I would with some gun which I barely know how to use?

It seems to me that all real Men will recognize the responsibility they have to their Families .... physical and spiritual, to take care of them.

That includes, food, clothing, shelter, education and many other things... including defending them from harm, and even death.

The only question remains is this ....

CAN YOU ACTUALLY PROVIDE FOR YOUR FAMILIES' DEFENSE, WITHOUT THE NECESSARY TOOLS TO PROVIDE FOR A COMPETENT DEFENSE?

For those in Rio Linda ... the answer is NO.

Standing in harms way with good intentions, and becoming the first victim ... is no defense at all.

THERE ARE SO many MALES ...SO VERY FEW men.

MEN have MANY self evident moral obligations ... otherwise we are just drones with male plumbing.

... an incompetent defense ...is NO DEFENSE AT ALL!

IN ORDER TO BE A THEOCRATIC MAN ... FIRST YOU HAVE TO BE A MAN!

 

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16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You are a regular here, this is your thread, and I usually avoid intruding upon that. Sorry again.

TTH:

I do not mind at all if you "hijack" (snicker...) my thread .... discussion between men should go wherever it leads ... I am not like Pharaoh in the movie "The Ten Commandments" that cares if his images are carved deep into stone.

Please feel free to "BLAST AWAY" at will ... and of course (here comes the GOOD part...) I get to BLAST AWAY back atcha. 

Somewhere in the carnage TRUTH will pop out of the mess.

All figuratively speaking, of course, in the context of civil debate....

My ONLY concern is that you would be misunderstood and that knock on your door would have cars with flashing blue lights in the street.

NEVER joke about weapons and killing in today's Snowflake environment ... they are expelling kids from school because they drew a PICTURE of a gun. ... while in Chicago there have been over 2,000 SHOOTINGS, AND 346 MURDERS this year so far, and the Mayor seems not to have noticed.

Approximately 30% of all humans have no sense of humor whatsoever ... and cannot even RECOGNIZE humor ... and I would suspect that in the Truth that is at least double.

Oh,  by the way ... in Chicago weapons are generally forbidden to "Good Guys', so only the criminals have them.

DUH!

 

.

 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

NEVER joke about weapons and killing in today's Snowflake environment ... they are expelling kids from school because they drew a PICTURE of a gun. ... while in Chicago there have been over 2,000 MURDERS this year so far, and the Mayor seems not to have noticed.

Approximately 30% of all humans have no sense of humor whatsoever ... and cannot even RECOGNIZE humor ... and I would suspect that in the Truth that is at least double.

Perhaps that is good counsel and I should be chastened by it. I will be.

I would hope that the image of someone lying such a thing routinely, casually and openly by their seat in this most non-violent of all places would be instantly recognized as a joke. But you're right. Humor does not universally translate. And there are many humorless people around. And humor is a spice at best; it is by no means a requirement for life. And it is a hair-trigger topic today.

Point taken.

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After we bought the house we now live in, I was poking around and found an old rifle tucked away in the attic. It had a Nazi insignia on it. A previous owner had apparently brought it back from Europe as a war trophy.

I don't know anything about guns and don't want to know. So I called 911. I made very clear that it was an old weapon. The cop who came didn't hear this part. All he was told was "there's a guy with a gun!!!" It's a good thing I did not behave erratically or emerge from the door gun in hand.

He looked at it, said it was deader than a door-nail and suggested it might be worth something. So I checked around but it was not. It was a Berlin model and they were a dime a dozen. Had it been Stuttgart or somewhere, we would have been talking some dough.

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That's how it generally works. Rural people hunt - some of them. City people don't. A C.O. we had for a time hunted, and he would bring carcasses back to his apartment behind the Kingdom Hall. He was low-key about it in case any city-slickers might be stumbled. It was in his DNA. He hailed from the plains of the Midwest.

So, having a gun handy already, some say (not the C.O.) "If need be, I'll plug a villain if the family is threatened. " I've never heard of anyone packing a weapon at the Kingdom Hall.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So, having a gun handy already, some say (not the C.O.) "If need be, I'll plug a villain if the family is threatened. " I've never heard of anyone packing a weapon at the Kingdom Hall.

OF COURSE NOT!

THE PEOPLE THAT DO UNDERSTAND .....  UNDERSTAND  THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND ... 

... and to NOT be a cause for "stumbling", do not advertise, and of course carry concealed so as not to be detected, anywhere.

Inside and outside of the Truth, we have become a nation of Snowflakes, and there is no need to give them unnecessary anxiety and upset them.

That is the whole point of carrying concealed ... so people will NOT be aware of who is "packing" ...  and not cause irrational panic among those  of the sheepish persuasion.

In over 50 years ... NO ONE at the KH has EVER seen my weapon(s), except at my house, and when my kids were at home, the house was always full of their JW friends, and we would all target shoot off of my back deck, and I taught them gun safety ... very important!

They would even take 'selfies" with their cell phones with my weapons. Some look very "James Bond-ish".

 EVERYONE was aware that I packed, we just never talked about it outside my home.

Word got around through back channels, and it was never a problem.

I have been out in Service in very bad neighborhoods, and had Sisters in the group comment almost out of range of my hearing " Nothing is going to happen to us today, .. Bro. Rook is here".  I would keep them in my sight at ALL times, like a hovering helicopter, and be obvious about it.

It's my job. 

An incompetent defense of one's extended family is NO DEFENSE AT ALL.

In OVER a half-century it has never been or created a problem, or even a concern by the Brotherhood in general ... and the Elders were always aware that I  carried weapon(s), either through back channel information, or a letter I gave them when I came to a new Congregation, as I have related here earlier,  several times. 

I know of two other Brothers that "pack", and no one would ever know about it.

It was a different culture back in the time of the Apostles, where almost universally,  men were armed ALL the time, either with knives, or swords, or a long heavy wood staff ... even the Apostles.  

The weapons they had at the Passover and Memorial ( LUKE 22:36) were their own PERSONAL WEAPONS they had with them .... AT THOSE CONGREGATIONAL MEETINGS.

Jesus perhaps did not notice them because they had taken them off to recline at the table to eat, a custom that is considered good manners even today in the West, under the "Cowboy Code".

Here in North Carolina the joke is .... when only Sisters come to the Kingdom Hall on a Sunday ...you know it must be the first week of Deer Season.

Bummer of a Birthmark.jpg

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

THE PEOPLE THAT DO UNDERSTAND .....  UNDERSTAND  THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT UNDERSTAND ... 

... and to NOT be a cause for "stumbling", do not advertise, and of course carry concealed so as not to be detected, anywhere.

Inside and outside of the Truth, we have become a nation of Snowflakes, and there is no need to give them unnecessary anxiety and upset them.

Not stumbling others is among the most basic principles of the New Testament. Don't tell me you have a problem with that.

You change your conduct on relatively petty matters so as not to stumble new ones or weak ones, or, as a strictly practical matter, not to get some people going. In the case of the C.O, it does not even involve a change of course; it simply is that he doesn't do something openly. If you don't create needless friction over what is small,  then you can hope to work smoothly together on what is big. You have a problem with that?

Look, if you want to carry a gun, carry a gun. I don't think many would have a problem with it, especially if they don't know about it. Just don't carry on as though your very manhood is proved thereby, and that anyone not packing a gun is a girlieman. I submit it is the elders you spoke of disparagingly who are the real men, and you are merely someone who carries a gun, which could conceivably do more harm than good someday. I mean, I can see the headline: "Man Messes With JW's in the Minstry - 'Do Ya Feel Lucky Today, Punk?'"

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.

TTH:

AS USUAL ... you have misconstrued everything I was stating, and projected your own fantasies and insecurities upon  others.

With Humans, there is infinite variety ... which covers your entire multi-point commentary.

BUT .... since YOU  have brought it up .....

 

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

AS USUAL ... you have misconstrued everything I was stating, and projected your own fantasies and insecurities upon  others.

For purposes of quality control, at times I respond to your remarks in a manner different than you would like, but I do not misconstrue what you have said, let alone misconstrue everything you have said.

Possibly in a Donald Duck - like tirade, you actually do not know what you say, inasmuch as you are blindsided when your words are taken at face value. Possibly you think persons will wilt in the face of them, as they might wilt if you pulled your rod on them.

Moreover, you did not answer my question - 'do the 'Babylonian police officers' agree with your assessment that one has no MORAL RIGHT to call upon them for help if one is not willing to defend oneself with firearms.'?

'You feeling lucky today, Punk? Do ya think they'll agree with ya on that one?'

I might have known I would not be able to misquote that line on your watch. That you would know it by heart AND deride a Christian for not knowing it speaks volumes. It practically says it all.

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TTH:

It is not a police officers job to decide what YOUR moral right is ... it is each individual person's right AND OBLIGATION to decide what HIS OWN moral code is ...

Duty is something you have to decide for yourself what it is... OR, you can let others decide what it is FOR you, but each has consequences and accountability ... sometimes only to your own conscience and moral code, sometimes to God, and sometimes to others.

I personally think it is despicable for a person who WILL NOT defend himself and his family  to ask a Babylonian stranger to do something he himself WOULD not do for himself,  assuming he is able bodied, or to let his friends die during the average seven minutes it takes for the police to respond.

To me, it's NOT REASONABLE.

And,  it is morally bankrupt.

Some people ... pacifists specifically .., have no moral qualms about having someone else put their life on the line, and possibly lose it, protecting them, when they would NOT defend their own lives.

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Possibly in a Donald Duck - like tirade, you actually do not know what you say, inasmuch as you are blindsided when your words are taken at face value. Possibly you think persons will wilt in the face of them, as they might wilt if you pulled your rod on them.

You use "possibly" twice in that paragraph... again projecting your personal fantasies on others ... specifically me. I rest my case with the evidence you yourself supplied. Thanks!   Your concept of "face value" is seen through a glass darkly.

And don't gimmee that guff that as a Christian, you did not know the line as well as my admittedly Barbarian self .... that is a cop-out.

You knew the reference well enough ... IT'S YOUR REFERENCE! .... and you THOUGHT you knew the line ... that's why you (incorrectly) quoted it.

 

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Okay, so at any time my wife might be grabbed from behind by a thug with a knife to her throat and I will regret forever that I did not draw my Glock and clock him between the eyes, SPATTERING HIS VILE BRAINS ON THE WALLS BEHIND!!!, whizzing the bullet past and grazing her ear to nail the SOB and then blowing the smoke from the barrel? Maybe.

I will consider that course once I read the revised updated Bible version: 'At that, Peter, drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's slave. Jesus said to him "Do you call yourself a MAN, with that POPGUN weapon of yours?! This is your LORD AND SAVIOR we're talking about! Why did you not bring a REAL weapon with you and take off his filthy head?"

In the meantime, I will consider that if she or I do not die at the hands of - how did you put it? - five or six armed men spraying the Kingdom Hall with bullets so that blood is flowing down the aisles, or somesuch, she or I will die 10 or 20 years down the road from a villain I cannot plug between the eyes, like cancer. Where is the six-shooter to take that one out? Rather than overindulging in fleshy thinking about this life, I'll do my best to focus on securing and attracting others to the real life of 1 Timothy 6:19.

If you would turn down the bombast and present your views simply as your views, rather than thundering them so loudly that Moses would be hard pressed to hear God giving him the ten commandments, my split personalities you speak of would likely leave you in peace. Oh, and if you would quit doing the 3 John 10 thing with the Governing Body. That would help, too.

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8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You knew the reference well enough ... IT'S YOUR REFERENCE! .... and you THOUGHT you knew the line ... that's why you (incorrectly) quoted it.

Of course I knew the reference. How else could I have used it? But I didn't know it verbatim and I didn't consider it an essential component of Christian life that I should research it. It is Dirty Harry, after all, not the Apostle John.

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INTERLUDE

( ... The part I like about these interactions is after I have proved my points with actual facts and evidence ... when I get to stand in the background and play the violin to imploding irrational opinions, frothing multiple personalities, lurid fantasy projections,  and cop-out obtuse rationalizations ...)

Humor, is where you find it !

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After the convention, Babylonian police officers waited to herd the docile emerging sheep across the busy highway, as if to slaughter. It was DISGUSTING  to see how meekly they complied!!!

Except for Brother Howard 'Dirty Howard' Callahan. "It's MORALLY WRONG to ask a BABYLONIAN POLICEMAN to do what you are not MAN ENOUGH to do yourself!!!" and with that, he strode into the street a few dozen yards up. A gaggle of admiring brothers followed him. He turned to them.

"You need to listen CLOSELY and EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY to what I have to say, and you need to do it NOW! This is not a game we're playing! Now, whoever is MAN ENOUGH, follow me!"

Traffic parted like the Red Sea as Dirty Howard led his followers into the highway. But about the fourth lane, one of them looked at the windstorm and became afraid. Before he could say "Save Me!" a runaway Peterbuilt truck body-slammed him. Instantly he burst open noisily and his spewing BLOOD AND INTESTINES even stained pink the overhead Goodyear blimp! In a flash, Dirty Howard drew his six-shooter and blew out all eighteen wheels of the truck! "I am TRAINED and HIGHLY SKILLED at handling WEAPONS the girliemen are not fit even to untie!!!" he said to some who thought the deed impossible.

Up the road, Officer O'Maly looked up from the BLEATING SHEEP that so cowardly followed his cues. "It's that idiot Callahan, again! We lose a few publishers to him each year."

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TTH:

That is very cute TTH ...  aaaaand it recommends your skill and imagination as a writer of novels.

You should excerpt that, and build a novel around it.

It has real potential to sell a LOT ... as extrapolational  comedy.

It would have to be a novel such as "Alice in Wonderland", or "Gulliver's Travels" as it has NOTHING to do with reality.

... absolutely NOTHING AT ALL.

But it is good writing, as a macabre visual comedy!

Oh, and by the way .. um ... people do cross streets by themselves, you know.

...... at least,  you are 100% consistent!

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

uh ... depends on the hug.

"... Is that your gun, or are you just happy to see me?"

 

I know.....my question just begged for that famous line. But I was actually being serious xD. You see we don't do that gun thing in Europe. For starters, it would be very difficult to conceal one, especially in the summer, as most bothers take their jacket off at the meeting (no air conditioning). However, I do realise, from watching dozens of westerns, that a true American cowboy doesn't go anywhere without his cowboy hat and gun. Hence I guess not all brothers in America are cowboys :)

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I try to not upset people unnecessarily, and there are even holsters that are concealable .. many different types and styles.  Google IWB Holsters (Inside the waisteband) .

I do not expect to encounter a "fast draw" situation, as I pay attention to my surroundings, and an extra three seconds seems not that important to me.

Like a fire extinguisher ( I have six), or a first aid kit (I have several of different sizes).

I hope at the end of my life the whole exercise will have been a complete waste of time and money ... merely a hobby, in retrospect.

 

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You know, there are actually things to like about JTR. He is not ambitious. He is not proud, at least no more so than anyone. He is a straight shooter. He uses (perhaps) his real name and photo, which is bold. (though I do wonder if he can possibly be so blunt in the KH as he is online - how much of a double life is he leading, if any?) He probably is much like Mickey Spillane in many ways. If you could just get him to lay off on the 3 John 10 thingie, you could almost plant a kiss on his leathery mug.

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53 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do not expect to encounter a "fast draw" situation, as I pay attention to my surroundings, and an extra three seconds seems not that important to me.

Almost .... I might need that three seconds after all.

30 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

you could almost plant a kiss on his leathery mug.

 

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On May 28, 2017, I posted the following:, which was followed by two pages of comments:

On 5/27/2017 at 9:54 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

SCENARIO:  You are at a packed Kingdom Hall on Memorial night, and ten minutes into the remembrance talk, six masked people with weapons enter the Kingdom Hall and begin shooting everyone they can, without any conversation.  

You are shot in the left side of your face and most of those teeth are gone.

Before you know what is going on twelve Brothers and Sisters have been shot, screaming and panic ensues, and there is blood and bodies and brains all over, and the shooting continues.

Would it be fitting for a Brother  to use his handgun to return fire on the murderers to try and save his own life, or the lives of his Brothers and Sisters?

Or, in PubSpeak ... "Would it be fitting for a Christian to keep a firearm, such as a handgun or a rifle, for protection against other humans?" ( July 2017 Watchtower )

This raises MANY Theocratic, moral, ethical, legal, and Societial policy questions ... all of which have REAL answers. 

What is the RIGHT thing for a responsible Christian to do?

Today this is the news.   

 

NO ONE IN THAT CHURCH HAD THE MEANS AND WILL TO RETURN FIRE ... It was not a house of God... it was a SLAUGHTER HOUSE.

... pssst .. and to forestall the next moronic observation .. I have an iron-clad alibi.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Today this is the news.

There must be a few other ways to gain protection from gunmen, other than just saying we will allow people to come into a church with guns. This is terrible news, but it was by allowing someone to come into the church with a gun that the tragedy began. People trained to use guns correctly can also end up misusing guns. Perhaps it's just as good to look into what is different in countries that have never had a mass shooting tragedy outside a military circumstance. If we can't follow those examples, then every public place may need to hire an armed guard or two, and put in gun/metal detectors at each entrance.

Just started looking at the past news from this area, and looking at the satellite images and photos of this town. Looks like it's possible that upwards of 10% of this town were killed or injured.

 

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OK JWI:

Lets say it is YOUR job to be  official "hall monitor/security" at a Kingdom Hall ... you are sitting in a folding chair at the entrance to the main auditorium, and someone walks through the door with guns blazing, and he somehow misses killing you with the first 15 shots ... You calmly walk up to him and say  " I am sorry sir, but we do not allow people to come into our church with guns", before he shoots you in the throat, and completely severs your spinal column with a bullet.

You have about 25 seconds to live, and the shooter walks over your paralyzed body and your pool of blood and continues firing. After you realize you will never move again, and your eyesight fades to black .. before you die your hearing still works for the next 15 seconds ... and you hear the screaming and terror of the Brothers and Sisters as they are systematically murdered, maimed and ruined for life.

Fade to black ..... you are DEAD.

If you had armed paid security guards AND metal detectors at the Kingdom Hall it would make no difference at all as the shooter came in and "sucker punched" the security guards by shooting them to death in the first 3 seconds.

Lets assume hypothetically, that a Brother was armed at the Hall, as Jesus' Apostles were at the "Memorial" and Passover, with the weapons of their day, and he sprang up and returned fire and made the shooter hesitate his murder spree, but... the Brother accidentally killed two Witnesses while the shooter was killing dozens.  They just  got caught in the crossfire.  The Brother Killed two by accident ... and prevented 26 from being murdered, and 35 from being badly wounded.

Your scenarios do not work.

They are based on wishful thinking, and assumptions NOT a part of contemporary reality.  

This Saturday Susan and I were  in a CPR/First Aid/Blood-borne Pathogens class where the EMT instructor said that when you dial 911... the average response time IS FOURTEEN MINUTES.

The theoretical Armed Brother could respond in about six SECONDS, and his bullets responding at approximately 1200 feet per SECOND.

The reality is that signs that say 'THIS IS A NO GUN ZONE" ...... If they were not so incredibly dangerous in notifying "Bad Guys" they can expect NO real resistance ... do as you will ... would be Hilarious!

NOTHING can stop Bad Guys with guns ... except Good Guys with guns.  If someone is not afraid of dying, there is no defense without eternal vigilance, and superior firepower, and pure dumb luck.

And having a Babylonian Police Officer put HIS life on the line for you when at the same time you refuse to defend yourself is complete and total moral bankruptcy.

.... just another brick in the wall ... of Justice being nothing but words, and common sense being systematically eliminated from the human gene pool by Snowflake political correctness.

JW Weapons Ban    CRAP 400   .jpg

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22 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You have about 25 seconds to live, and the shooter walks over your paralyzed body and your pool of blood and continues firing. After you realize you will never move again, and your eyesight fades to black .. before you die your hearing still works for the next 15 seconds ... and you hear the screaming and terror of the Brothers and Sisters as they are systematically murdered, maimed and ruined for life.

Fade to black ..... you are DEAD.

This did happen at a Baptist church, remember. They must have disfellowshipped someone.

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12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This did happen at a Baptist church, remember. They must have disfellowshipped someone.

TTH:

You are making assumptions NOT in evidence ...

And, as usual, COMPLETELY ignoring the underlying principles of why this is even being discussed.

At least you are , as always ... 100% consistent.

Seagull-Free-Zones  600   .jpg

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On 5/29/2017 at 7:09 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have carried weapons all my adult life, and my biggest crime was driving around a barricaded road when I knew the road construction to be completed, and good ( I designed roads for a living for many years...), and I got a ticket that cost $240.

Although my arsenal may scare the timid, I do NOT "live by the sword", and never have.  I even take spiders outside, assuming they are lost, so they do not starve to death.

Peter was being admonished not to GET INTO A BATTLE,  offensively,  and after he demonstrated that he was NOT going to let Jesus be murdered by an illegal night time mob (by cutting off the ear of the slave of the High Priest...) ... WITH THE SWORD HE WAS COMMANDED TO BRING WITH HIM ...  Jesus said the DEMONSTRATION was enough ... an ear cut off bleeds like a faucet turned on.

It has always been common knowledge that I "carry", and so far, to the best of my knowledge, in a half century, it has never stumbled ANYONE, even Elders who asked me about it, and in three different congregations throughout the U.S.A., I was called into "Room 101" before the triumvirate and questioned.

The last time it went something like this ...

"Um... Brother Rook, it has come to our attention that you carry a gun....um... is this true?"

"Yes, it is."

"Um, er... Brother Rook, uh.. are you carrying one now?"

"Yes, I am."

This is where they don't know what to say next ... there  are looks all around, and then after a pause,  they stand up, I stand up, they extend their hands, thank me for my time, and we all go out into the main Hall and go about our business.

When I go into a new Congregation, those elders that don't know I carry a firearm, I hand a prepared letter informing them that I do ... and it has NEVER, anywhere in the USA, created the SLIGHTEST ripple or complaint from ANYONE, in over 50 years. 

I have had elderly Sisters ask me about  security for them, and I always advise them NOT to be armed, as you have to have a certain mindset to use weapons responsibly.  

If you are scared of the responsibility, best to be a victim, than make someone else a victim by your own hand.

When we returned to the KH after Field Service, I did go to the trunk of my car and gave her a child's baseball bat I kept there, and explained how NOT to use it for self-defense ( a whole other story) ...

I agree with the Society's position that Elders, Ministerial Servants, and those in authority should NOT be armed ... I have yet to meet an Elder, etc., that could handle the responsibility necessary, or have the mindset.

I disagree with the rest that creates a mindset of cowardice.

I am un-apologetically NOT a sheep ... I am a Sheepdog, and all that implies.

It's even my job to protect Snowflakes, who think 7 minutes to an armed policeman  is faster than  a 1700fps defense, 30 feet away.

.

 

 

Out of curiosity...do you have privileges in the hall? Legally I don't think the elders can tell you not to carry, but I imagine this would interfere with your ability to take on a role in the hall.

I have no issue with a JW carrying a gun on their own time, but I don't know if I care for it in the KH. The KH is our safe, sacred space provided by Jehovah. If someone goes in and commits violence, they are attacking Jehovah on his holy ground. I put my full trust in God that justice will be served if someone "touches his eyeball". We should return good with evil--not evil for evil. We are in many ways "sitting ducks" (did you see the videos of KH invasions by police in Russia? Please look at how calm and respectful the JWs were) but we put our trust in Jehovah to make things right. That's a witness of faith for the world to see. Furthermore, are all JWs mentally qualified to carry a gun in the hall? What if a JW--angry about a counsel or judicial decision--decided to take vengeance into his own hands? 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.....

wolf-free-zone.jpg

What this case illustrates has nothing to do with guns or no guns.

What it illustrates is that the world continues to go to hell in a hand-basket and that the stupidist thing anyone can do is to criticize non-stop the Witness organization that educates people as to the significance of it. 

Incredibly, I know of some who are that stupid.

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@TrueTomHarley yes our desire to be "slow to anger" and not loving violence sets us apart. It doesn't make sense from a worldly perspective!! Although I don't judge a Christian that carries a gun, I think of how Jehovah God asked the Israelites to go into battle with no weapons. What a message sent to the nations that God has a people that rely on HIM and not physical weaponry. I think of the future when nations will turn violent against us. Will we think this is our fight? No. Jehovah says vengeance is his. Jehovah will protect his people pure from the bloody violence of this world.

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2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think I may have something mean to you long ago when you first came online here. I take it all back. 

The loyal brothers in the bunker video didn't exactly blow away the invaders with their tommy-guns, did they?

 

That's in the unrated edition... xD

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What this case illustrates has nothing to do with guns or no guns.

What it illustrates is that the world continues to go to hell in a hand-basket and that the stupidist thing anyone can do is to criticize non-stop the Witness organization that educates people as to the significance of it. 

Incredibly, I know of some who are that stupid.

TTH:

I REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE that you are taunting me with the absurdity that you do not get the Meme about what sheep in a field with a "NO WOLVES" allowed sign has to do with gun control efforts by liberal Snowflakes .... but...sigh ... I will assume you do not get it.

Your comment reminds me of the girl who tells her father " Dad... I'm Pregnant!", and he looks dazed and asks "How did THAT happen?" (Answer: The usual way...).

You are a smart guy, TTH ... and I find it very VERY hard to believe you cannot make such a simple connection between what is similar between these two Memes. If this is actually TRUE, your natural intelligence has been subverted by external forces, and you are forbidden by agenda to make the connection.

To help you make the connection I am posting 3 memes 

1.) Thugs outside a Kingdom Hall "stymied" by a "NO GUN ZONE"" sign

2.) A bird sitting on a "NO BIRDS" allowed sign

3.) The grazing sheep in a field with a sign warning wolves they are not allowed in this area, as it is a "WOLF FREE ZONE"

I believe this also indirectly answers other's additional questions.

Making Kingdom Halls "Gun Free Zones" ONLY makes professional victims out of everybody inside, as anyone who is going to MURDER ... will be unconcerned with what he is "allowed to do", or NOT "allowed to do".

I am stunned that I ACTUALLY have to explain this to otherwise functional and presumably rational human beings!

Sheesh!

JW Weapons Ban    CRAP  200     .jpg

Seagull-Free-Zones    300    .jpg

That Dumb   300   .jpg.jpg

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13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It wouldn't have been if Quick-Draw McGraw was there. What a grand witness that would have been.

The last part of the video showed everyone in the New System paradise .... the last part was edited out where all in the basement were shot to death ... moments after the bunker scene ended.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You cannot expect evil, determined people intent on

MURDERING YOU .... to follow ANY signs or ANY rules !

NONE WHATSOEVER!

That is the one thing Snowflakes never understand about EVIL.

Quite true. The commitment to evil is quite often unperceived by those who do not share it.

Anyone who expects peaceful behaviour to dissuade evil intent has obviously not considered Ezekiel 38:10-12:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.”  It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth."
 

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Making Kingdom Halls "Gun Free Zones" ONLY makes professional victims out of everybody inside, as anyone who is going to MURDER ... will be unconcerned with what he is "allowed to do", or NOT "allowed to do".

Could you explain this again, please?

The problem may have something to do with  Corinthians 2:14...

"But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually"

Whoever suggested that Kingdom Halls carried the designation of "Gun Free Zones" anyway? Didn't that just come from your own head?

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Guest J.R. Ewing

You go “ROOK”. DonÂ’t take anything from liberal bible thumpers, and their attempts to take your “weapon” away. Spoken like a “true” member of the National Rifle Association.

You, continue to fight for the right to bear arms, and uphold the constitution of these United States of America that, was endowed as a right for its citizens. You keep singing that “pledge” of allegiance, loud and proud, like a Yankee doodle dandy!!!

Webp.net-resizeimage.jpg

Spoken like a true "Trump" supporter!!!!B|

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It is interesting that the insane responses  above COMPLETELY ignore that at the Passover and the Memorial of Christ's Death .... that at least two Apostles had they very own state of the art (for the time...) portable weapons with them at their meeting place.. (Luke 22:36).

About the same era. Marcus Aurelius made a statement something like "It is not the purpose of life to be in the majority ... but to avoid being in the ranks of the insane".

You can always tell who is insane.... they attack the messenger of ideas they don't like ... but never the ideas.

This is normal, but it is still insane.

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Some stool pigeon ratted on Shadrach, Meshech, Abednego and Rookie. "King Neb, didn't you say that when the whole shebang of instruments clanged, everyone must drool over that idol you set up? What a wise law that is! But Shadrach, Meshech, Abednego and Rookie haven't done it!"

"WHAT?!!" King Neb exploded. "Throw them into the fiery furnace. Stoke it up extra-hot first!!!" 

But as the guards approached, Rookie pulled out his six-shooter. "You forgot to declare this a gun-free zone," he smiled sardonically, and blasted the guards into smithereens - filling them all with gaping holes you could put your fist through.

As he twirled his gun and slammed it down into its holster, all the Jews hailed him as their savior. 'Who needs God, anyway?' they said. 

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Very clever. TTH .... Very clever.

Also another one of your creative absurd personal  "projections", and as usual ... completely and totally irrelevant to any logic, reason, or reality.

That is why many aspiring novelists have a garage full of their "Vanity Publishing" books.

Just think of my commentary as new material for your next book.

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Oh... and thanks for the PERFECT "setup".

Absolutely PERFECT!

You even mentioned my going back in time, and my six-shooter !

Your conclusion paragraph needs a rework, however.

.

 

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Guest J.R. Ewing

Yes, Continue, to fight for your rights, that man has given you. Manipulate scripture to mean something that Jesus didn’t subscribe to. Those of us that donÂ’t distort scripture like the NRA, understand only too well where the insanity lies!!!

Those who live by the sword, (Matthew 26:52- Galatians 3:10-11) will die by the sword. In essence, after admonishing an apostle for taking the ear off a guard, that Jesus, ended having to heal? then the moral of the story is if you don’t have faith in God, by means of Jesus NOT needing the apostles to “defend” him, then, live by man’s law, and don’t consider yourself Christian.

picks-b0587835c17a34a6(1).jpg

I know, you will have, a very happy, Thanksgiving.!!!^_^

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J.R. Ewing:

4 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

You go “ROOK”. Don’t take anything from liberal bible thumpers, and their attempts to take your “weapon” away. Spoken like a “true” member of the National Rifle Association.

You, continue to fight for the right to bear arms, and uphold the constitution of these United States of America that, was endowed as a right for its citizens. You keep singing that “pledge” of allegiance, loud and proud, like a Yankee doodle dandy!!!

1.)  I am not a member of the National Rifle Association ... which in all the massacres and shootings that have taken place have NEVER had ANY member be the perpetrator.... it's always people with YOUR attitude doing the murders.

2.) As I have posted before, with photocopies of their Passport Applications, the Past Presidents of the WTB&TS have ALL sworn allegiance to the US Constitution, and sworn to, BEFORE GOD, protect the US Constitution, against all enemies foreign and domestic, as ADULTS serving the Corporation.  ( ...and as an aside... as an adult I HAVE NOT.)

3.) We are endowed with rights by Jehovah God. (Even cats have retractable claws). Governments may or may not insure those rights, but they do not endow natural rights ... the MOST BASIC of which is survival against evil.

4. ) No one "sings" the US pledge of allegiance  - your lack of education betrays your perspective on everything you stated which is all wrong, distorted and because it was used to try and disparage me ... EVIL.

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

I know, you will have, a very happy, Thanksgiving.!!!^_^

But, thank you for the "Thanksgiving" wishes .... What follows is the actual Thanksgiving day Proclamation issued by Abraham Lincoln.

Please review it and specifically tell me what you find so offensive about it.  I see NOTHING wrong with it. Nothing at all!

" Washington, D.C.
October 3, 1863

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the United States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

William H. Seward,
Secretary of State"

Please review it and specifically tell me what you find so

offensive about it.  I see NOTHING wrong with it. Nothing at all!

.

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Guest J.R. Ewing

Interesting, how quickly you have forgotten the writing in Luke.

Those that “advertise” to join the national rifle association on their “Facebook” page is, in FACT, an indirect member of the NRA, by proxy. Thinking it, ergo, you become in your heart what you advertise. I believe the word youÂ’re looking for here is “endorsement”. Say it with me!! ENDORSEMENT, thatÂ’s a good fellow!!

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No different, when committing adultery because of our thoughts. Matthew 5:28

As for the “pledge of allegiance” well, I think we both know, who needs to know, the definition of “in unison”. But, don’t get upset, Rooky old boy, that’s life, that’s what people say!!!  ¬¬

Are You in Sync?

What do marching bands, religious chanting, reciting the pledge of allegiance, singing in unison, and rock concert mosh pits have in common? A recent study from Stanford suggests such synchronizing activities facilitate bonding and mutual support among the participants.

    Hello guest!

 

 

Yet, in the beginning of your post, you claim not to support your government, and you show us another illustration of, another, example, of governmental support by Abraham Lincolns Thanksgiving Proclamation. Way to go ROOK!!! ¬¬

 

Keep them coming!!!! :D

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J.R. Ewing:

Your absurd extrapolations are sad to behold.

Normally, all prostitutes wear shoes ... but not all those that wear shoes are prostitutes.

AND .... your sad deflection to absurdity allowed you to NOT find anything wrong with Thanksgiving, even when given the complete text of the Proclamation that defined it. 

WITH THAT ASSURANCE .... I am completely assured that there is no problem with me observing the Holiday, as it was chartered.

Care to comment on my point no. 2, above?

For your convenience I am re-stating it.   ( Hrrrumph!)

" 2.) As I have posted before, with photocopies of their Passport Applications, the Past Presidents of the WTB&TS have ALL sworn allegiance to the US Constitution, and sworn to, BEFORE GOD, protect the US Constitution, against all enemies foreign and domestic, as ADULTS serving the Corporation.  ( ...and as an aside... as an adult I HAVE NOT.)"

Be a sport .... address that VERY REAL ISSUE.

THIS ... is where "the rubber meets the road.".

 

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Guest J.R. Ewing

Rook! Rook! Rook!

The absurdity is to think, endorsing the NRA, is NOT the same as your false claims, by thinking the GB was pledging its allegiance to the same of what you are, endorsing? Come on! Rook, you can do better than that, no need to shout!!!

Let’s debate the real issue about thanksgiving that you support under LincolnÂ’s proclamation, and the, consideration of the word “murder”, under you're posted question,

What is a Christian Man's MORAL responsibility

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“WITH THAT ASSURANCE .... I am completely assured that there is no problem with me observing the Holiday, as it was chartered.”

 it's always people with YOUR attitude doing the murders.

So, hearty eating Rook! You deserve to be Happy!!! By the blood and sacrifice of others!!!!B|

I'll stop now, you do better when you debate TTH!! xD

It is a "sad" affair when it comes to contradictions!! 9_9

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November 13, 2017

I think this essay from Jon R. Lott of Fox News carries the point that MANY men feel that it is their moral responsibility to defend the innocent, and if called upon by circumstance to do it, have the means to provide a COMPETENT defense.

Good guys with guns saving lives

By

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    Hello guest!

 

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is a columnist for 
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. He is an economist and was formerly chief economist at the United States Sentencing Commission.

“ Stephen Willeford’s heroic actions last Sunday

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at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas.  The killer, Devin Kelley, was shooting the wounded when Willeford showed up with a rifle.  Willeford’s quick actions forced Kelley to stop his attack, presumably saving the lives of the twenty wounded and possibly many more.

The press derided President Trump for saying that Willeford saved many lives with his gun, and that stricter gun control regulations would have only made things worse.

It is only too bad that someone with a concealed handgun permit wasn’t already at the church.  We may never have heard of the shooting — national news stories are virtually never done on permit holders stopping mass public shootings.

An article

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this past week mentions four such cases.  It talks about a 1997 shooting at a high school in Pearl, Mississippi; a 2007 church attack in Colorado Springs; and a Chicago Uber driver who in 2015 shot and wounded a man who opened fire on a crowd.  The most recent case was a 2017 church shooting in Antioch, Tennessee.  But those cases just skim the surface. 

A

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claims that only once between 2000 and 2013 did a concealed handgun permit holder stop a public shooting (they claimed to look at all cases where guns were fired in public that weren’t part of a gang fight or some other crime).  This single case occurred in Winnemucca, Nevada in May 2008, when a customer with a permit fatally shot an attacker who had just killed two people.  They didn’t even include the 2007 church shooting in Colorado Springs, where a killer had already taken two lives at the church before being stopped by a permit holder.      

A 2014 FBI report claims that only once between 2000 and 2013 did a concealed handgun permit holder stop a public shooting. This false claim just shows how politicized the FBI became under the Obama administration.

This false claim just shows how politicized the FBI became under the Obama administration.  Many times, police, sheriffs, and prosecutors have gone on the record and credited permit holders with saving many lives.  These attacks didn’t get national news attention, but they would have been on front pages everywhere if a permit holder hadn’t intervened.

 

There are

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of people using guns in self-defense at their homes or workplaces.  But I want to focus on a much narrower set of cases where permit holders stopped public shootings.  Here are
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.

 

-- Arlington, Texas, May 3, 2017: A police spokesman stated that the concealed handgun permit holder “prevented further loss of life.”   A Dallas Morning News headline read: “‘Hero’ stopped mass murder by crazed bar patron who was armed to the teeth, police say.”

 

-- Lyman, South Carolina, June 30, 2016: Just a couple of weeks after the Orlando massacre, 32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson opened fire on another nightclub.  Fortunately, permitted concealed handguns were allowed in South Carolina bars.  Thompson was able to shoot three people before the permit holder fired back and wounded Thompson in the leg.  Fox 5 in Atlanta reports: “At least one South Carolina sheriff are crediting a man with a concealed carry permit with preventing further violence at a nightclub this past Sunday.”

 

-- Winton, Ohio, July 26, 2015: A man started shooting at four people who were walking outside on a summer’s evening.  Fortunately, a concealed handgun permit holder fired at the attacker, giving the four people a chance to escape into their home.

 

-- Conyers, Georgia, May 31, 2015: A man killed two people at a liquor store and continued shooting at others until a permit holder ran inside and exchanged fire.  The killer then fled the store.  “I believe that if Mr. Scott did not return fire at the suspect then more of those customers would have [been] hit by a gun,” said Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett. “So in my opinion he saved other lives in that store.”

 

-- New Holland, South Carolina, May 5, 2015: New Holland Fire Department volunteers were hosting a children’s day event with ice cream and fire truck rides, when a man started shooting.  Fortunately, two firemen were permit holders and were able to stop the attack.

 

 

n      Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 22, 2015: A 40-year-old man started shooting at people in a barber shop.  A permit holder who heard the gunfire ran inside and shot the attacker.  “The person who responded was a legal gun permit carrier.  He responded and I guess he saved a lot of people in there,” said Philadelphia Police Captain Frank Llewellyn.

 

-- Darby, Pennsylvania, July 24, 2014:  Convicted felon Richard Plotts killed a caseworker at Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital and started shooting at Dr. Lee Silverman. Fortunately, the doctor had his own gun and returned fire, critically wounding Plotts, who still had 39 bullets on him.  “Without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives,” said Yeadon police chief Donald Molineux.

 

-- Chicago, Illinois, July 7, 2014:  Gang members started firing at four people who had just left a party.  The attack started because one of the four people removed a cup of liquor that had been placed on top of her vehicle.  Luckily, one of the four people — a military member — had a permitted concealed handgun and was able to wound the primary attacker.

 

-- Portland, Oregon, January 11, 2014: Convicted criminal Thomas Eliot Hjelmeland was ejected from a nightclub but returned 30 minutes later wearing a mask and carrying a gun.  He shot the bouncer who had ejected him, and shot at others.  Two others were wounded, and Hjelmeland was shooting all around the club. A concealed handgun permit holder who worked at the nightclub then fatally shot Hjelmeland.

 

And here are just two more cases from 2000 to 2013 — the same period that the FBI claims only had one instance of a permit holder stopping a public shooting.  Again, law enforcement say that permit holders saved lives in both of these cases.

 

-- Plymouth, Pennsylvania, September 9, 2012: William Allabaugh shot at people as he walked down the street in Plymouth, Pennsylvania.  He wounded one and killed another.  Permit holder Mark Ktytor fatally shot Allabaugh.   “Mr. [Ktytor] then acted, taking him [Allabaugh] down. We believe that it could have been much worse that night,” said Luzerne County Assistant District Attorney Jarrett Ferentino.

 

-- Spartanburg, South Carolina, March 2012: Jesse Gates kicked open a door to a church and pointed a shotgun at the pastor and congregation.  Parishioner Aaron Guyton, a concealed weapons permit holder, got the drop on Gates and held him at gunpoint.  Sheriff Chuck Wright called Aaron and others at the church “everyday heroes.”

Permit holders haven't just stopped public shootings.  They have stopped everything from public knife attacks to vehicle attacks.

  

I haven't found a single case where gun control advocates' fears were borne out by the facts.  In not one of these cases did a permit holder accidentally shoot a bystander, or a police officer accidentally harm a permit holder.

There are

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of these cases. Imagine how different the gun control debate would be if  some of these heroic permit holders got national coverage. But even the liquor store shooting in Conyers, Georgia couldn’t get national coverage, despite being caught on video.

 

The more you learn about these cases, the more you appreciate that mass public shooters have good reason to

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.  These killers might be crazy, but they aren’t stupid.  They realize that the longer it takes for a good guy to arrive with a gun, the more people they can kill. “

 

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is a columnist for 
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. He is an economist and was formerly chief economist at the United States Sentencing Commission. Lott is also a leading expert on guns and op-eds on that issue are done in conjunction with the
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. He is the author of nine books including "More Guns, Less Crime." His latest book is
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(August 1, 2016).

 

 

JW Weapons Ban    CRAP 400   .jpg

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    Hello guest!

Are there any "JW Gun Free Zones?"

How did the Baptist Church of this report become a Kingdom Hall? 

For that matter, was even the Baptist church a "Gun Free Zone?"

Who would originate juvenile stuff like this?

The article you cite makes perfect sense and speaks for itself. Then you let every bit of air out of it with a silly cartoon that reveals an agenda.

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TTH:

You ask four questions in a row I hope are rhetorical, or your ability to extrapolate future events from present day inputs somewhere along the line has been seriously, and possibly irrevocably retarded by YOUR agenda.

OF COURSE I have and agenda!

EVERYBODY has an agenda!

When philosophy involving life and death responses to life and death situations are seen as juvenile, as you do see them ... there is nothing I can do to help you understand.

People DETERMINED to remain clueless are not salvageable.

Dilbert-2003.08.07      600        .jpg

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I have thought the matter over carefully and have decided you are right.

At the next Bethel bigwig meeting, assuming that I am invited, I am going to insist upon a Weapons Servant for each congregation. 

The Weapons Servant will distribute arms to each publisher entering the meeting. Any sissies declining will be subject to counseling. Two elders will do - it is not, in its early stage - a judicial matter.

Publishers will be issued tommyguns, Ministerial Servants AK-47s, and elders Missile Launchers. Sisters will get Glock handguns. Children will be issue squirt guns. 

There is absolutely no question who should be the Weapons Servant in your congregation, but I am not sure of the others. Please forward a list of names. Forward also both scriptures to inspire ones so armed, and scriptures they do well to forget. 

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Guest J.R. Ewing
2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sisters will get Glock handguns

This might be taken wrong by feminists. Equal rights an all!!! You might want to consider arming the sisters with ar-15's to keep it equal!!! xD

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18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You answered your own question PHB...er... I mean, TTH.

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For your information, James, I have never engaged in despicable trolling.

I do admit, however, to the occasional dignified perusal of internet resources in search of fatheads to set straight.

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Does anyone remember watching the first Diehard movie and liked that part where it suddenly dawns on John McClane that Alan Rickman is nothing but a common thief? Well I hate to say it, but through all that talk, JTR is nothing but a common cowboy. He should have been born in the Wild West in the 1800's where he would have come into his own, and nobody would have held it against him. He looks a bit like John Wayne. Ok, I know he was an actor.

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

He looks a bit like John Wayne.

God said to Rookie: "Go down to Nineveh and kick some butt." 

So Rookie proceeded to board a nuclear-armed ship headed for Tarshish and slipped a few nukes into his holster. In time, God sent a big fish to make trouble. "Die, sucker!" Rookie screamed, as he blew the beast to smithereens.

Rookie approached Nineveh and the gates were closed. So he cut them it two with blasts from his guns. King Ninny wet himself as Rookie put a gun to his temple. "You feel lucky today, punk?' he sneered. "Well, do ya?" King Ninny ran to the intercom. "Attention all Ninevites. Mayday! Mayday! Rookie is in town! Get that sackcloth on!

Rookie slammed his gun back into its holster and popped open a nice cool beer to enjoy under the gourd tree. God said: "That King Ninny got those people to straighten out and fly right. I'm not going to smush anyone."

"Oh, for crying out loud!" Rookie cried in disgust. "Are you wimping out on me?"

 

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

He should have been born in the Wild West in the 1800's where he would have come into his own, and nobody would have held it against him. He looks a bit like John Wayne

Anna:

Thank you for the kind complements, but it was in the Boy Scouts that I learned the motto "Be Prepared", and later to "adapt and improvise".  Interestingly enough, in my lifetime I have had several other people make the same comments, that I was born a hundred years too late, and am a poor fit for this century.

  I never cared much for John Wayne the person ... except for his work ethic ... but I do feel a closeness to the majority of the characters he played, in Westerns.

Common cowboys developed the "Code of The West", and Wyoming actually has an official "Code of the West" which the legislature adopted in 2010, as follows:

The legislation designates ten ethics derived from the book "Cowboy Ethics" by James P. Owen:

 1.  Live each day with courage.
 2.  Take pride in your work.
 3.  Always finish what you start.
 4.  Do what has to be done.
 5.  Be tough, but fair.
 6.  When you make a promise, keep it.
 7.  Ride for the brand
 8.  Talk less, say more.
 9.  Remember that some things are not for sale.
10. Know where to draw the line.

 

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

God said to Rookie: "Go down to Nineveh and kick some butt." 

So Rookie proceeded to board a nuclear-armed ship headed for Tarshish and slipped a few nukes into his holster. In time, God sent a big fish to make trouble. "Die, sucker!" Rookie screamed, as he blew the beast to smithereens.

Rookie approached Nineveh and the gates were closed. So he cut them it two with blasts from his guns. King Ninny wet himself as Rookie put a gun to his temple. "You feel lucky today, punk?' he sneered. "Well, do ya?" King Ninny ran to the intercom. "Attention all Ninevites. Mayday! Mayday! Rookie is in town! Get that sackcloth on!

Rookie slammed his gun back into its holster and popped open a nice cool beer to enjoy under the gourd tree. God said: "That King Ninny got those people to straighten out and fly right. I'm not going to smush anyone."

"Oh, for crying out loud!" Rookie cried in disgust. "Are you wimping out on me?"

 

Wow, your life and ministry workbook looks different to mine last night!

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Excellent! A church with which you 85% agree. When are you transferring?

As soon as they adopt the vital 15% core Truths that to the best of my knowledge, only Jehovah's Witnesses have.

At one time in history only one natural man knew  the core theology as we do, and that was Sir Isaac Newton, but his writings were not made known until after his death, as the Trinitarians would have excoriated him.

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( four months later ....)

Several weekend meetings ago, the CC made the comment at the WT Study ...  "We should be peacemakers ... a turtle is a peaceful animal, but it is not a peacemaker ... we need to be peacemakers!"

How do you "make peace" with a terrorist who barges into your Kingdom Hall and starts shooting people?

Only one way I know about ... and that is to kill him as quickly as possible.

Please feel free to throw your cell phone in a high cometary arc across the aisles, and knock the gun out of his hand.

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"We should be peacemakers ... a turtle is a peaceful animal, but it is not a peacemaker ... we need to be peacemakers!"

The Peacemaker, also called the Frontier, the Model P, and the Equalizer was firstly widely used by the army. During the mid-1860Â’s the army was looking to replace their slow and fragile percussion pistols, so they tested the .44-caliber Colt revolver, which they rejected for being robust and unreliable. However, during the 1870Â’s William Mason and Charles Brinckerhoff designed and created the .45-caliber centerfire Colt Single Action Army. The army immediately recognized the gunÂ’s potential: they used it as their official service weapon until the World War II.Second generation Colt Single Action Army.

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I wish I could give that THREE upvotes !

I have OFTEN thought about buying that model firearm.

Perhaps with a black, plain western style holster with a platinum or silver chess piece symbol on the side of the holster.

The only problem is I would have to move to San Francisco, across from the Stock Exchange, in the Hotel Carlton.

( inside joke .... )

 

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About 13 years ago, I bought a "silencer" for my firearms.

They are quite legal in 34 states, and shows consideration for your neighbors in neighborhoods like mine, where everyone in my corner of the subdivision shoots off of their back decks at backyard targets. and sometimes the noise gets excessive ... especially on a Sunday afternoon in summer with the windows open.

You do have to fill out ATF forms, have it signed by your local Sheriff, be photographed and fingerprinted, pay a $200.00 tax for each "can", and have to wait over three months for approval, but it is great fun ... and intimidates the hell out of weak livered Snowflakes, who melt all over themselves at the thought.

Humor is where you find it.

I was not going to post this little personal vignette, but I ran across this photo and just HAD to ... for the Librarian.

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YES...  funny,  chuckle  belly  laughing...  xD  JTR's  on  &  off  freaky  comments,  let me  stay  little  longer  here  to  my  night - time....   NOT  always,  but  sometimes,  my  mood  is  going  very  high - althrough  my  bed  is  calling  me,  haha 1f602.png1f634.png

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