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TrueTomHarley said:

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    37 minutes ago, AlanF said:

    I've sometimes tested JWs who came to my door: "What if your organization began teaching that the moon is made of cheddar cheese? Would you reject such obvious nonsense?" Most have answered that they would go along with their organization.

Come, come. Tell the truth. Shame the devil.

What are you hiding? What are you misrepresenting? What are you sifting through with your mighty “logic,” and in so doing, dropping everything of value, making yourself look ridiculous, and qualifying anything else you say?

They are NOT going to say: “If the GB says the moon is cheddar cheese, than IT IS!”

Most likely they demur because the question is so stupid, and then you crow your typical “victory.”

 

You're abysmally dishonest, TTH. I did not say they demur -- I said they directly answered the question.

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    37 minutes ago, AlanF said:

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        which is full of loving people who sincerely want to do the right thing,

    On an individual basis JWs tend to be exactly that. But the leaders are vicious, and no different from those of the Christendom they love to bash
    Read more   

I thought you said that you knew how to think.

 

Obviously you don't, as will be immediately shown.

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It will not fly with those who truly understand logic. Vicious leaders will produce vicious people.

Not necessarily. Watchtower leaders are well known for saying different things out of both sides of their mouths, and acting quite differently from their moral pronouncements.

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If, instead, the rank and file JW “tend to be exactly that”—“loving people who sincerely want to do the right thing,” The leadership cannot be TOO vicious.

The two-facedness of JW leaders is much like that of the Pharisees: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

Simple, eh?

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No. Anyone of sense will tell you what ones of sense here do tell you. The leaders also are loving and try to do the right thing. They are imperfect, they can err, they are not scared of applying the discipline that any decent parent must. They are NOT “viscious”—otherwise those who look to them for headship would also be.

They're vicious in that they tolerate no dissent, not even from sincere dissenters. They declare such ones "wicked apostates" worthy of eternal death at God's hands.

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Now THAT is logic.

Nope. Argue with Jesus, not me.

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15 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

I am not in the U.S. and so cannot confirm or deny your comments. I can say that reporting is mandatory in my country.

I agree with that. After all the GB themselves have appointed men who were not whom they appeared to be (as have other levels of authority within the organization.) As for the rest, I assume you are referring to Deut. 18:20 which JW haters are so fond of parroting. You are going beyond the scope of your reference in your suggestion especially as to how JWs use the term as applying to themselves. The GB put out a video explanation of that for clarification as it seems some JWs needed to be clear on that issue as well. 

I was willing and planning to write a point-by-point response to the things you have written - including those I may agree with. But frankly, now I think it's just a waste of time. You clearly have an agenda that won't be swayed by what I consider "facts" and your hateful diatribe (from someone who apparently doesn't even believe in God in the first place) is to me, counterproductive. I am happy having a purpose in life, a wonderful hope for the future and a warm loving relationship with my creator and many friends. I wish the same for you, but of course, you may already be happy and content with what you have. We will have to agree to disagree - on some points at least. 

Umm...it's called being honest in case you don't recognize it. You noted correctly that I was willing to acknowledge negative things that may happen, but when I wrote what I considered to be reasonable explanations/positive points, you dismissively wrote it off as "excuses." Truly, there is no pleasing people who appear to have a hateful agenda and only see the bad. You are of course welcome to your opinion. It's just that on some points I don't share your opinion. Is that OK? 

I have been willing to honestly acknowledge both positive and negative things about us, but I've only heard negative, hateful diatribe from the naysayers here with not one positive thing to say in all these missives. There are millions of JWs who are good people by any standard, but if anyone bought into your nonsense they would all be viewed as bad or negatively. I may not agree with Muslims, Catholics, Pentecostals... but I can always find points of agreement when engaging them in conversation and things I like about them - even when it isn't a religious discussion.

So as far as I am concerned, you are not only unfair in your blanket characterizations, I simply don't find your association either enlightening, helpful or even fair-minded.

@b4ucuhear  OK, I'll agree to step back slightly as I may appear aggressive, whereas I just try to be assertive. 

I remember a scripture which say to 'keep oneself without spot from the world'. And reading through many comments on this forum I can see that the GB and the Org's line of management, do not keep themselves without spot from the world. 

You seem in line with Mr Harley when you say people have 'a hateful agenda', and this does truly show how the Organisation really does brainwash the congregants. It appears so often on here that anyone that finds faults with the GB and the JW Org seem to have a 'hateful agenda'.  When in fact all of us are just humans, trying to live our daily lives. 

IMO, anyone that leaves the JW Org should just be treated as Jesus treated the tax collectors. Jesus would converse with them, eat meals with them, and wasn't Matthew a tax collector. But because the GB changed the way that the announcement was made from the platform, no one knows if a person has left or were d/fed. If a person leaves the Org, they are no longer 'calling themselves a brother/ sister' so that scripture would not apply, about not even eating with such ones. So why so much shunning?

Quote "There are millions of JWs who are good people by any standard,  " 

There is only one standard that is worthy of consideration, God's standard.......... And if JW congregants follow the GB / Elders / JW org without question, then they are not adhering to God's standard but man's. 

You are once again in line with @TrueTomHarley and @Arauna here with your idea of 'any standards', because it means you are comparing JW's with the standards of this wicked world. 

The cars I drive are cheap and nasty, but if, when the weather is wet and cold, I compare my cars to a bicycle, then my cars are wonderful, near perfect in fact. :)  Do you get t he picture now ? 

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

because it means you are comparing JW's with the standards of this wicked world. 

The wicked world will not answer to God? So it is ok if they do bad things? Same with christendom..... they teach many untruths BUT you expect us to be perfect IN EVERY way.  Christ died for us too you know! We are very imperfect but at least we try to live lives that honour God..... and try to stick to His principles.  There are always a few Judas' wherever you go.... even Jesus did not stop Judas.  So there are a few JWs who bring dishonor on gods name and when they are dealt with - we get critisized for that too.  We cannot please everyone - only God. In comparison to others - we are trying.... but nothing is good enough for you.  So let God be the judge. We are only too aware that God will judge us first.... e ven the 144000 will be judged before they are sealed. 

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9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You seem in line with Mr Harley when you say people have 'a hateful agenda', and this does truly show how the Organisation really does brainwash the congregants. It appears so often on here that anyone that finds faults with the GB and the JW Org seem to have a 'hateful agenda'.  When in fact all of us are just humans, trying to live our daily lives. 

Simply stating an opinion that some people have a hateful agenda doesn't mean they are "brainwashed." It's simply an observation/opinion borne out by what we see and experience. I could just as well say that you are "brainwashed" because you disagree with me. You can either agree or disagree according to your observations - you are entitled to your opinion. Brainwashed has become a derogatory term used too loosely these days and especially apparently, by you when someone disagrees with you. 

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

There is only one standard that is worthy of consideration, God's standard.......... And if JW congregants follow the GB / Elders / JW org without question, then they are not adhering to God's standard but man's. 

Once again, you are welcome to your opinion. And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards, by the same token, you too are an imperfect, uninspired individual - as is every other human alive. But I'd put far more weight toward what I have learned through JW's than I would with you. So feel free to believe what you want. 

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are once again in line with @TrueTomHarley and @Arauna here with your idea of 'any standards', because it means you are comparing JW's with the standards of this wicked world. 

Thank-you for the compliment of being "in line" with TTH and Arauna and thank-you for noticing. Once again, you are going beyond the scope of your reference after that. While it may be true that we compare JW's standards with those of this wicked world (a fair thing to do by the way, as long as you don't leave it at that), we also try to align our standards with what we read in God's Word. That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... But you already know that. It seems that for you, it's like coughing up a fur ball for you to acknowledge anything good about JW's.

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The cars I drive are cheap and nasty, but if, when the weather is wet and cold, I compare my cars to a bicycle, then my cars are wonderful, near perfect in fact. :)  Do you get t he picture now ? 

Yes, I get the picture...that you don't know what you are talking about and that the cute comparison in the context of our discussion only shows you drive cheap and nasty cars. Nothing more. There is nothing cheap and nasty about JWs as a whole (even though there are some bad apples). And JWs for the most part have already made the appropriate comparisons by either being raised in one of thousands of different religions or exposed to the different ideas of those same ideas in the field ministry. 

One thing should be obvious to you by now. Most JWs have heard your negative rants and character assassinations before. In fact, they may have even entertained those same views prior to becoming JW's. So they aren't going to change because some anonymous loudmouth spews vitriolic diatribe over the internet. (I'm not specifically accusing you of that)

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

all of us are just humans, trying to live our daily lives. 

Yes, that's all. "Just humans, trying to live our daily lives." So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? Aren't there bigger fish to fry out there? What about all those religions that go to war killing millions of their fellow worshipers; celebrating pagan holidays; teaching people they will burn for all eternity in hell for some imagined infractions; terrorism and suicide bombers and a myriad other greater infractions? I could go on and on but apparently you seem conspicuously silent on the big issues and big fish.

I wasn't planning on wasting more of my time with people who have an agenda. 

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On 12/4/2019 at 8:55 PM, b4ucuhear said:

Simply stating an opinion that some people have a hateful agenda doesn't mean they are "brainwashed." It's simply an observation/opinion borne out by what we see and experience. I could just as well say that you are "brainwashed" because you disagree with me. You can either agree or disagree according to your observations - you are entitled to your opinion. Brainwashed has become a derogatory term used too loosely these days and especially apparently, by you when someone disagrees with you. 

Once again, you are welcome to your opinion. And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards, by the same token, you too are an imperfect, uninspired individual - as is every other human alive. But I'd put far more weight toward what I have learned through JW's than I would with you. So feel free to believe what you want. 

Thank-you for the compliment of being "in line" with TTH and Arauna and thank-you for noticing. Once again, you are going beyond the scope of your reference after that. While it may be true that we compare JW's standards with those of this wicked world (a fair thing to do by the way, as long as you don't leave it at that), we also try to align our standards with what we read in God's Word. That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... But you already know that. It seems that for you, it's like coughing up a fur ball for you to acknowledge anything good about JW's.

Yes, I get the picture...that you don't know what you are talking about and that the cute comparison in the context of our discussion only shows you drive cheap and nasty cars. Nothing more. There is nothing cheap and nasty about JWs as a whole (even though there are some bad apples). And JWs for the most part have already made the appropriate comparisons by either being raised in one of thousands of different religions or exposed to the different ideas of those same ideas in the field ministry. 

One thing should be obvious to you by now. Most JWs have heard your negative rants and character assassinations before. In fact, they may have even entertained those same views prior to becoming JW's. So they aren't going to change because some anonymous loudmouth spews vitriolic diatribe over the internet. (I'm not specifically accusing you of that)

Yes, that's all. "Just humans, trying to live our daily lives." So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? Aren't there bigger fish to fry out there? What about all those religions that go to war killing millions of their fellow worshipers; celebrating pagan holidays; teaching people they will burn for all eternity in hell for some imagined infractions; terrorism and suicide bombers and a myriad other greater infractions? I could go on and on but apparently you seem conspicuously silent on the big issues and big fish.

I wasn't planning on wasting more of my time with people who have an agenda. 

Quote " So why are you spending your daily life on websites such as this singling out Jehovah's Witnesses? "

BECAUSE THIS IS A JW WEBSITE and therefore I talk about JWs.

As for spending my daily life on here, wrong. It's Saturday and i haven't been on here since, Wednesday I think it was. My life is far too busy to spend too much time on here, Hence when i log on I find between ten and twenty comments that I've missed. 

And when three or more JWs on here say that, so and so has a 'hateful agenda', then it certainly looks like they are being parrots, so I call it brainwashed.  

Quote " And while I agree that mindless unquestioning obedience to whatever is said by imperfect, uninspired men won't always reach God's standards "   Wow, we can actually agree on this. 

Quote "That is why JW's are known for being honest, truthful, law-abiding, loving, loyal, peaceful... "

NO, that is what is shown on the outside of the dish. But Jesus said first wash the inside of the dish so that it will be completely clean.... Right now the 'world' is seeing inside the dish of JW Org. 

The GB's lawyers are being seen to tell LIES in courts. The truth is out about Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide, and about victims being disfellowshipped to get them out of the congregations and to stop other congregants talking to them. What is being seen is the lack of love, mercy, justice, truth, honesty and law abiding  behaviour.

I do wonder, when JWs are standing by the 'carts' with the literature, do they think it is because people are not interested in God that people walk straight past ? 

Well maybe people know of all the wickedness inside the JW Org, so people do not want to get involved. That maybe why they walk straight past. Because the JW Org brings shame on Almighty God. 

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On 12/4/2019 at 3:55 PM, b4ucuhear said:

I wasn't planning on wasting more of my time with people who have an agenda. 

Oh brother! I should have taken my own advice instead of wasting my time on a pointless back-and-forth with people who think "getting the last word in" somehow indicates they have the upper hand in a post.

I respect you right to disagree with whatever I or anyone else says, but this droning on and on is pointless. I just saw topic that went on for over 50 pages, with no end in sight. I'm not at all interested in investing that much of my time arguing points for which both sides seem intractable. So why bother? I am honest enough to admit that I have seen things that shouldn't be happening within the organization, but I am also honest enough to admit that much of what you infer is utter nonsense. 

2 Tim. 2:... "But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy for they will lead to more and more ungodliness...these men (or women) have deviated from the truth,...and they are subverting the faith of some. despite that, the solid foundation of God remains standing, having this seal, 'Jehovah knows those who belong to him,'...Now in a large house there are utensils not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honourable use but others for a use lacking donor. So if anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be an instrument for an honourable use, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work...Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight..."

I won't be surprised if you or any of your ilk continues ranting on-and-on here, so "if I'm not there, start without me."

That's all I have to say to conclude by involvement in this thread. It is counterproductive and I've got better things to do. 

 

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