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Memorial 2020 during covid-19 lockdown


Anna

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10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.

When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61  But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you?* 62  What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?z63  It is the spirit that is life-giving;a the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 6:60 -63

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I think you have stated the question very well and have already implied the answers. Yes, some see it as a ritual. But it really is a ritual, just as baptism is a ritual that is not optional. Som

Most of these churches that defy government quarantine restrictions do so because they see the government being opportunistic—‘never let a crisis go to waste.’ They are intensely political on the righ

I have noticed many friends seem to be stressing about the acquisition of the memorial symbols during the coronavirus lockdown. There have been quite a few discussions on social media and in person.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

I am not sure what rules you are referring to with regard to the memorial. The only rules I know of, and they are pretty straightforward, is the wine should be unfortified and the bread unleavened and the anointed are the only ones who partake and the great crowd are observers.

I put "rules" in quotes because I believe actual rules are too much like laws, and then it smacks of legalism, and we therefore miss the spirit of Jesus' instructions. Especially if they are always followed the exact same way so often that we aren't really paying much attention.

But you hit upon a few of the "rules" to question already:

Why does our wine need to be the same as a "Passover" wine? At one time, an elder would purchase the wine and no else one really thought much about whether it was "Kosher for Seder" or exactly what levels of sugar it had. Now that millions of Witnesses will think about going out to buy it on their own, they might wonder why we don't try for wine made from Israeli grapes/vineyards. What constitutes too much preservative to make it impure if it must represent the unblemished Lamb? And if it's too difficult to get your own wine, some will wonder (as you did) if you should get symbols at all! Or perhaps, since no one is partaking, would it be OK to take the closest matching wine from your own wine rack? After all, it's only called "the product of the vine" in the Scriptures, and we don't know much more about any Galilean variations for Passover.

Also, what if someone has decided just before the Memorial that they now are of the anointed class and the symbol wasn't offered? And, even if no one is partaking, how important is to follow the words: "Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves" (Luke 22:17)

The same kinds of questions could be asked about the bread. 

(Also, the question might arise about whether a family needs to clear the food from the dinner table first, since the disciples seemed not have done so in Matt 26:

(Matthew 26:20-26) . . .When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” ... “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24 ... 26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.”

(Usually it was a bowl of oil that a piece of bread was dipped into.)

Other questions, like I mentioned, might be why it has to be on Nisan 14, if Jews could celebrate a month later? Or why do we even celebrate it once a year like Passover was celebrated, when Paul said "whenever" and Jesus sais "as often"? Or, is it proper to have this celebration at a house when Paul said that people should eat at their home instead of where they partake of the Memorial?

(1 Corinthians 11:20-22) . . .When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? . . .

And for some, they might be paying more than the usual attention to this particular Memorial and perhaps even deeper questions might arise about the doctrine itself. Perhaps questions some should NOT be asking. Whether partaking in a Biblical sense actually means sharing which some might say we should all be doing. Or even whether the particular part of the Kingdom hope we wish for ourselves personally should have anything to do with whether we are supposed to partake. 

(1 Corinthians 10:16, 17) . . .The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ? The loaf that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of the Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf.

 

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11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You don’t think there are some unbalanced ones who wil

In Sweden it happened that someone partook.  She had so many personal problems and later on she just passed off the scene...... disappeared.  Because I was a foreigner I did not catch up with the news about her.

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I'm sure most Witnesses here had the meeting yesterday, probably through Zoom, and the Special Talk (pre-Memorial). The talk was also already available on JW.ORG, and the Memorial talk(s) too.

The announcement that all the summer conventions would be made available through JW.ORG didn't surprise me, because planning for these is a lot of work in Feb/Mar even where all conventions are at local assembly halls, and planning for other venues takes much longer, sometimes contracted nearly a year in advance. Because of the unknowns it is not possible, therefore, to just push these out a couple of months.

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23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Now that millions of Witnesses will think about going out to buy it on their own, they might wonder why we don't try for wine made from Israeli grapes/vineyards. What constitutes too much preservative to make it impure if it must represent the unblemished Lamb?

I think if Witnesses get hung up about such detail it verges on being pharisaical....

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, what if someone has decided just before the Memorial that they now are of the anointed class and the symbol wasn't offered? And, even if no one is partaking, how important is to follow the words: "Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves" (Luke 22:17)

I don't think that should be much of a problem. In a small intimate family setting, he could just reach over and take the emblems. No one would need to pass it to them surely? This is why I think passing the emblems is moot, and especially if no one partakes.

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, the question might arise about whether a family needs to clear the food from the dinner table first, since the disciples seemed not have done so in Matt 26:

That's an interesting one. I will propose that one to my hubby 😄

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Or why do we even celebrate it once a year like Passover was celebrated, when Paul said "whenever" and Jesus sais "as often"

That's how the Catholics see it, as I'm sure you know. Hence the sacraments any time.

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Whether partaking in a Biblical sense actually means sharing which some might say we should all be doing. Or even whether the particular part of the Kingdom hope we wish for ourselves personally should have anything to do with whether we are supposed to partake. 

Sorry, could you explain what you mean, not sure I understand..

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

That's how the Catholics see it, as I'm sure you know. Hence the sacraments any time.

The annual method makes the most sense, of course. And the evidence from the 2nd century shows this is how it was understood. I saw some Covid news about priests offering the sacraments (actually bread/wafer only; no wine) to people driving up in their cars. A drive through mass, as it were. I guess even in church they don't often offer the parishioners any wine, but the priest drinks it for them. Do you know if this is common?

7 hours ago, Anna said:

Sorry, could you explain what you mean, not sure I understand..

I wasn't trying to be too clear. It was just a reference to one of the usual type questions we hear around this time of year. I could have also included: "What happened to 1935?" "What if the other sheep are (anointed) Gentiles?" "What about Nisan 15 instead of Nisan 14 for Passover?" "What about the apparent contradiction between John and the Synoptics on the date of Jesus' death?"

We can bring this back up again for discussion tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I saw some Covid news about priests offering the sacraments (actually bread/wafer only; no wine) to people driving up in their cars. A drive through mass, as it were. 

 

I saw an item about some squirting wine at car occupants using turkey basters to keep social distance. Or is that only in my mind’s eye that I saw it?

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