An interesting take on politics, conspiracies, and prophecies

[JOHN BUTLER]

40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anna and Outta Here have already said it and pointed to material that says it, and I'm sure you have heard the argument before while associating with Witnesses. But here it is again: there is a logical problem with your argument. God's name in Hebrew is YHWH, true, but this doesn't automatically mean that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation. Why not Yehowah? In fact, there are languages today where the most common pronunciation of the Divine Name is exactly that: Yehowah.

Admittedly this was influenced from English, and a major contributor to the popularization of that form of the name was a Catholic monk. But as Anna said, there are other names where we use a modern English or other modern-language equivalent. The name for Jeremiah was YRMYH. Do you argue,  why not Yarmayah? It's possible (though highly unlikely) that this was how it was pronounced. But some modern languages will pronounce it Yeremiah, even in the WTS publications in those languages. The divine name is a special case and perhaps this means we should give it special scholarly treatment in selecting the most likely pronunciation. However, even here, if it turned out to be Yahweh, that form in English would be Jahveh. We don't say Yeshuah, we say Jesus (because that form of the name Joshua had already been "hellenized" to Yesous.) Sometimes the change is even more significant, like Yakob to James or even Santiago.

To me, these arguments sound a bit like straining the gnat, but not very consistently.

My point was that Anna said it in such a 'matter of fact' way. God's name is Jehovah, no argument type of way. 

JW's are taught such and go out into the ministry and teach it as such. PARROTS, without questions. 

The only ones that would have any real idea of how God's name is to be pronounced are the truly Anointed ones. And that cannot be the GB of JW Org. Why ? Because of the way they have proved themselves to be the Wicked slave. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That has happened, but it's not what I said. There was a time when the focus was always on Russell and how great he was as one of the major historical contributors to the "faithful and discreet slave." We had a doctrine that claimed that there were always members of this faithful and discreet slave alive at any given time on the earth since the Christian congregation was formed just after Pentecost of 33 CE. 

In fact, there was a research assignment for history buffs that was supposed to become a part of the "Proclaimers" book, that was supposed to go into a lot more detail about some of the groups that our publications had identified in the past, who were typically persecuted for not believing in the Trinity (Arians, for example), and those who stood up against the powerful religious leaders of their time and tried to publish truths for wider distribution to everyone. The GB members behind this effort were so disappointed in the results that they dropped the idea from the "Proclaimers" book, and began to drop the teaching altogether, so that we rarely spoke any more about about Arius, Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses, etc. 

The focus of that book became a chance to show how Russell stood out among those he had learned from: Grew, Stetson, Brown, Miller, Paton, Seiss, Storrs, Barbour, etc. But even this effort began to show that Russell was rather eclectic, and was just as apt to pick up a wrong idea as a good idea and run with it. But the biggest "new" issue that was being learned about Russell was that so many of the early Bible Students who followed Russell were actually in an end-times chronoloy cult. This was not Russell's fault, but he had the kind of convincing personality that drew people to him. Rutherford was a Russellite cult member too for many years. But it was in 1919 that Rutherford realized this. If Rutherford had not used shrewd (and technically illegal) means to grasp the Watchtower organization from the majority of the Russellite leadership that Russell had chosen, then the Watchtower would probably still be just another Russellite "cult."

The real cut-off from Russell began in 1919, and it took another decade for Rutherford to completely figure out how to do that. And this is one of the reasons that the Watchtower today, since 2012, teaches that the true "faithful and discreet slave" no longer includes Russell, even though for many years up until 1919, Russell was had been considered to be the ONLY member of the "faithful and discreet slave."

I'm not saying that the current Governing Body necessarily did the right thing in identifying only themselves as the current FDS, but at least, since 2012, they have taken measures to remove much of the emphasis on Russell himself, by removing him from any identification with the  "faithful and discreet slave."

Yet when i and others say that the Governing Body cannot be of the Faithful and Discreet slave because of their many faults, we are seen as wrong. But the GB can 'remove' Russell,  because they suddenly say he wasn't one of them. Quite funny I think. 

Once again you are worshipping men. Your GB have become like gods to you. 

[Anna]

@JOHN BUTLER  I like this quote from JW Insider;  " I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place".

[Anna]

On 12/5/2018 at 6:01 PM, Space Merchant said:

That being said, it would depend on what you want to know..........the dark web....

I have a dark web right outside my bedroom window, with a big spider in the middle of it . Sorry, I know you are being serious. It's good we have google, although of course we need to find the right pages, because there is a lot of biased stuff out there. As I said, generally I do not buy into conspiracy theories, but I also know that the average person doesn't know the half of what's really going on.

[JOHN BUTLER]

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER  I like this quote from JW Insider;  " I think the only way we can see past the human error and focus on the leadership of Jesus under the headship of Jehovah, is to avoid putting the human leadership on so high a pedestal in the first place".

There are none so blind as those that do not want to see. 

IT IS THE GB THEMSELVES THAT PUT THEMSELVES ON THAT PEDESTAL. 

The GB call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave. It is the GB that tell the others of the Anointed to keep quiet and not be noticed. 

It is the GB that say the rest of the Anointed are NOT of the Faithful Slave class. 

It is the GB that make all the rules and the Elders act like Policemen obeying those rules without question. 

It is the GB's system of GOVERNING that stops congregants making changes where changes are needed. 

YOU PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT WORSHIP YOUR GB.  Stop trying to pretend that you don't. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

I'm in serious mood as it's 10.30 pm and I'm tired. So i have no idea what this riddle is about and probs will not find out. 

Goodnight to all. 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I hope your trip to Warwick was a good one. Did anyone come up to you?

The trip to Warwick is nice. I'm going to the 10:00 Sunday meeting in the auditorium there tomorrow morning. Then Monday, we go to Wallkill.

I met two brothers I knew from the 80's only because I called them first. Also, it's so impersonal without tour guides, and the whole place is sterile as can be. In a tour group you are talking to other people in your group and asking them where they are from, and what congregation, and invariably finding out that you know someone they know. In Brooklyn, I used to get called upon at least once a week to give tours, and it was always joyous, upbuilding and friendly. Also, a person coming through for a visit to Brooklyn could ask for me to give their tour and it would be a welcome interruption to the day's routines. Yesterday, I saw at least 200 people from bus tours and carpools come through and I happened upon only one instance of someone recognizing someone else from afar. Everyone was quiet, even young ones, as if it was a library. I saw only about 10 teenagers, and maybe 20 younger children. The rest were adults, more wheelchairs than I expected. Everyone is on their own, usually with a headset on, and 4 out of the 5 exhibits are very cramped so that I think brothers and sisters in wheelchairs felt like they were always in the way.

Bethelites stay out of sight, and the guides are often volunteers from nearby congregations who commute in one day a week. There are about 850 full-time workers here and I probably saw 10 of them even though I also walked the grounds several times between buildings -- not a part of the tour. Never saw a glimpse of a person in any of the building offices or windows because of the way they reflect. Except for the 200  on tour, you could have convinced me that all those many large buildings were vacant.

Two exceptions were two sisters assigned to clean the tables in the "multi-purpose room" with Swiffer-style brooms. I had brought a muffin with me and offered it to someone at the table and the sister pretended she wanted my food and said "Did you say you had a muffin?" I yelled back "You didn't hear muffin!" She lol'd and called the other sister over and began talking to us. They were originally from Hawaii and LA and had married Bethelites about 7 and 9 years ago working at Patterson and Brooklyn, respectively, before moving to Warwick.

[Witness]

55 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

 

If all you do is play Monopoly ... you begin to think the cash is real, and the board game is real.

 

 

 

JTR, how real to you is "the only game in town"?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Those two men R & R are sometimes put 'on high' and then sometimes 'disowned'. I find that funny. It seems they were once seen as part of the Faithful Slave and are now seen to be NOT of the Faithful Slave. 

Of those two, only Russell was removed from the "list." Rutherford remains, but some of Rutherford's faults have been candidly admitted. I wouldn't say anyone has "disowned" Rutherford, although I worked with two brothers in the 1970's who still admitted that they held a strong grudge against the judge. If you know some of the stories about him it's a lot easier to read between the lines in the publications and from experiences various brothers had with him that have been mentioned in interviews. But you don't have to be liked to be faithful and discreet. There are a few things I don't like about Rutherford and a few that I do like. I don't think of him as a key part of the FDS nor any kind of "foundation stone." Among many righteous and courageous things he stood for, he was instrumental in keeping control of the assets of the Watchtower Society, and that name, having been associated with Russell and the work of the Kingdom as they understood it, kept a core portion of Bible Students together at a critical time. Otherwise, it's possible that Rutherford might have become a footnote.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I found that it made sense and people were kind and helpful. However over the years the things I was first taught have been 'wiped out', and therefore things make less sense.

A couple things make no sense, because human traditions create strongly entrenched things. Things just get more awkward when someone has to grasp at straws to make sense of things after they have been proven to be obsolete. Outside of about 5 topic areas, however, I happen to think that most things make even more sense now, especially looking at all the changes since about the year 2000. Also, I think we've dropped a lot of things that just can't be made to work anymore, but the WTS hasn't completely abandoned the ideas completely and has sometimes chosen untenable solutions to issues created by the older teachings. It's like sewing new patches of unshrunk cloth on old garments. After everything is "cut and dried," it just doesn't wash!

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And the fact that the Anointed have been pushed to one side and the GB have chosen to exalt themselves, by calling themselves the Faithful and discreet slave, whereas all of the Anointed were once the Faithful and discreet slave,  this shows a dictatorship within the JW org.

All anointed Christians are no longer identified as THE faithful and discreet slave. But this wouldn't stop anointed Christians from being faithful and discreet slaves. This is something that all Christians are supposed to be, no matter what they claim to know about their ultimate place where they will serve in God's Kingdom throughout their eternal lives. True Christians who are faithful and discreet slaves will have this attitude:

• (1 Peter 4:10) . . .To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
• (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . .

I agree that it is an unfortunate circumstance that has probably led the Governing Body to believe that they need to bestow this title upon themselves to be respected for "authority" they believe is necessary to effectively lead thousands of local congregations and millions of brothers and sisters. I think it is a human failing to be expected in every religious organization on earth. For me the point of an organization is the idea that it provides a ready-made social group with which we can begin putting our Christianity into practice. It's a support group for the stronger to help the weaker, the richer to help the poorer -- and for all to provide an example to one another, both physical and spiritual encouragement and nourishment to one another. 

Such a group will be expected to put forth a set of teachings, which might be half right and half wrong, but it's a start for us to discuss. As the teachings are tested and questioned, the surer things and the more important things will rise to the top. It's true, as you say, that weak elders will not question and will become "policemen." But it is still our duty to test and question. If we are kicked out for it, so be it. If the "policemen" think it's right to break up families and natural affection over such questions then this is a tragedy and needs to be changed if we want to be Christian. Christianity is a constant fight for righteousness. It's easier in a social group of like minded persons, even though a social group, being human, will naturally have abusers who want to rise to the top just to be "policemen."

*** w77 10/1 p. 599 The Christian Congregation and Its Operation ***

• They are not governors or “masters” of the lives or faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but are viewed as brothers and equals having a duty of stewardship. —1 Cor. 4:1, 2; 2 Cor. 1:24; 1 Pet. 4:10.

Back in 1977, discussing the Governing Body, this verse from 2 Cor was included along with the two other scriptures I already quoted above. The one I hadn't quoted yet was the middle one:

• (2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote : 'encourages high morality'. UM questionable don't you think, in view of the massive amount of HIDDEN  Child Abuse Earthwide within the JW Org.

This is one big problem. I'm not minimizing it. We no longer encourage the hiding of child abuse. It still happens, of course. I think it's from shame. We just don't want to admit something so horrible is as much among us as among others. Those who think it's best to hide it are not thinking the way Jehovah wants us to think; they are not thinking about what true justice really is. It's rampant criminal stupidity, and we are not immune.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote "We should all push for more improvements even if this means exposing the seriousness of injustice to children, and exposing these issues to the light."   I did i left the JW org, and that is what eveyone should have done.

True. Some have left, thinking this might allow them to push for change more effectively. Some, in the past, have pushed on the issue and then even been pushed out when they did not want to leave. But you left and I wonder if you really think that it made more people aware of the problem, than if you had just brought it up matter-of-factly in normal conversation to as many people as possible first, before leaving. Also, don't you think that this really requires a top-down approach. And by the way, I know of an elder in California who has stepped down and discontinued his former level of association with the congregation and who spends much time actively campaigning for worldwide change and national political change on this issue. If he is to be believed, he has not been approached by any persons or committee about disfellowshipping or disassociation. I honestly don't think the WTS would ever want to make a move against such a person again. It would be devastating to the current and potential court cases. Also, note that in recent court cases there are apparently less of them trying to mitigate against the seriousness of the specific crime itself. They are primarily trying to mitigate against financial loss to the corporate entities whose representatives argue that the responsibility for child sexual abuse does not lie in following the promoted rules, guides, and processes of the WTS, which they also believe, in good faith, have been Bible-based.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote :" that it means God has removed his blessing from all of us, especially the leadership. I don't expect so much out of the leadership .. Matthew 5 v 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

True. I don't expect the leadership of any human organization to be perfect. Ultimately we must be, and it should always guide our motives and goals. But don't expect it anywhere. As TrueTomHarley has often tried to point out, we might expect that Christian methods of dealing with the issue might make our numbers (statistics) actually come out better when compared against institutions of the world. Perhaps they already are. But there are factors that might fight against this, too. Just as Catholics bring supposedly celibate men into the priesthood, Witnesses attract persons who believe that association alone might change their wicked desires. Witnesses might also attract those who believe that fellow Witnesses are extremely trusting and naive, "babes to badness" as it were.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In my opinion big changes are coming. The GB have to be removed, in any way that God chooses. The JW Org may have to be destroyed, if God chooses to do it, or to let it be done. As in the destruction of Jerusalem.

If that happens, do you see yourself believing that this organization must have been "God's chosen" one, just as Jerusalem represented an earthly organization of God's chosen ones? I get the feeling that you don't feel there is any significance to the JW Org in our day, and probably don't feel that big changes would really be a cleaning out by God's direct intervention.

I think that most if not all the current Governing Body are doing a pretty good job as expected in most areas of concern. But they are also steeped in our own long organizational tradition, and captivated by the idea that they have been asked to serve in an awesome, overwhelming position of responsibility. One of those areas of responsibility is finding and choosing others who should be asked to serve in such a position. In such a situation, I don't see them as bad or unworthy, but just trying to do the best they can in the situation they find themselves serving. An ex-member who was a strong critic of the Governing Body called it being "captives of a concept." The same ex-member said that a big part of that "concept" is based on seeing certain changes as inconceivable, especially where it comes to a perceived need to "police" the faith of millions of followers. I think you (and the ex-JW I refer to) are both partly right in this regard. Because their vantage point sees reports of activity always "rolled up" in terms of a works-based faith, it will likely be a while before we see a change from "activity-based faith" to "faith-based activity." As people who came up through the rules of the organization as they have always been, it's probably all they are seeing every day, and it's so much to deal with that they haven't yet looked very far outside the box.

[Evacuated]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:18 PM, Anna said:

Many names are written and pronounced quite differently depending on what language you speak.

Yes indeed. It's a bit like:

• Caleb and Sophia - English
• Philipp und Sofia - Deutsch
• Lucas og Sofie - Dansk
• Kevin och Sofia - Svenska
• Jakob og Sofie - Norsk
• Priidu und Pauliina - Eesti
• Ignas ir Kotryna - Lietuviu
• Leevi ja Sofia - Suomi
• Stefcho and Lily - Bulgarski
• Marci és Zsófi - Magyar
• Kuba s Luckou - čeština

😊

[Arauna]

I left this forum before because the hate is just too much for me here.  It is a breading ground for all the dissenters.   I prefer to discuss world affairs in light of prophecy where I do not have to deal with people who visit a site like this just to vent their emotions which makes them illogical and full of hatefulness.   I have seen arrogance here that it is just too much to waste my time to deal with.  

Fools - yes fools - because the bible calls those foolish ones who spend their time in the pursuit of breaking down.  They cannot think for themselves or ponder on the fact that the history of Israel is given as an example to us.   They were the people of Jehovah (in a covenant relationship with him) but you can study all the IMPURITIES and injustice that infiltrated the nation despite their having a law to teach them what is right and wrong.  Their management of course went without a hitch!  They were just perfect - so perfect that Jehovah never had to bring all the curses upon them described in Deuteronomy!       Despite all this waywardness of the nation and individuals, Jehovah managed to bring his plan to fruition to bring forth the Messiah - exactly on time!     

Today Jehovah also has a nation in a covenant relationship with him.  Are they perfect!  Hell NO!  They are prone to the same sins as everyone else... but they are fulfilling the prophecies of warning the entire earth to remain NEUTRAL to world politics and remain within his principals.  They definitely are PURE regarding the teachings of trinity, hellfire, pagan traditions, and immortality of the soul and many more.  Are there wayward individuals whose hearts are not PURE - definitely.   But Jehovah removes his spirit from them if they persist in their ways - especially if they are just critical and do not appreciate the good things they have learnt!   They are like Esau and they do not have the qualities of the spirit.  As far as I remember hate and criticism of brothers is not a fruit of the spirit. .....    I would just like to have a logical conversation without all these nasty qualities always sticking out as the main theme!