ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[JW Insider]

A previous similar topic ran on for too many pages without getting back to the original point. But several points were brought up there for further consideration. Perhaps we can pick up some of them here, too.

The original point was supposed to be about a certain interpretation of Revelation 11 from some comments about the Bible reading last week. Caution: my own commentary will likely seem critical of the interpretation given by the Watchtower publications, for reasons that I will try to make clear.

So here's the basic topic this time, based on the Revelation 10-12 and the Midweek meeting material:

*** Text for Tuesday, December 10, 2019 ***
December 9-15
REVELATION 10-12
• Song 26 and Prayer
• Opening Comments (3 min. or less)
TREASURES FROM GOD’S WORD
• “‘Two Witnesses’ Are Killed and Brought Back to Life”: (10 min.)
Re 11:3—“Two witnesses” prophesy for 1,260 days (w14 11/15 30)
Re 11:7—They are killed by “the wild beast”
Re 11:11—The “two witnesses” are brought back to life after “the three and a half days”

Song 26 was chosen, a song with the following theme: all things that the "other sheep" do for the "comfort and aid" of the anointed are what Christ accepts as being done directly for himself. The song then includes all comfort, aid, labor, and loyalty shown by the other sheep to the anointed. And then it mentions that the fine works shown to the anointed is actually the preaching work which is done alongside Christ's brothers, the anointed.

I think we'll end up coming back to that song, but for now we'll start with the linked commentary by clicking the links in the Watchtower Library. (from the mwb and the information that was linked to the 2014 Watchtower):

*** mwb19 December p. 3 “Two Witnesses” Are Killed and Brought Back to Life ***
• “Two witnesses”: The small group of anointed brothers who were taking the lead when God’s Kingdom was established in 1914
• Killed: After preaching for three and a half years “in sackcloth,” they were “killed” when they were imprisoned and forced into inactivity
• Returned to life: At the end of the symbolic three and a half days, they returned to life when they were released from prison and resumed taking the lead in the preaching work
[Timeline on page 3]

 

*** w14 11/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
Who are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation chapter 11?
▪ Revelation 11:3 speaks of two witnesses who would prophesy for 1,260 days. The account then says that the wild beast would “conquer them and kill them.” But after “three and a half days,” these two witnesses would be brought back to life, much to the amazement of all onlookers.—Rev. 11:7, 11.
Who are these two witnesses? The details of the account help us to identify them. First, we are told that they “are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands.” (Rev. 11:4) This reminds us of the lampstand and two olive trees described in the prophecy of Zechariah. Those olive trees were said to picture “the two anointed ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech. 4:1-3, 14) Second, the two witnesses are described as performing signs similar to those performed by Moses and Elijah.—Compare Revelation 11:5, 6 with Numbers 16:1-7, 28-35 and 1 Kings 17:1; 18:41-45.
What is the common denominator that links these references? In each case, the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.
At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.
However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days.—Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12.
Interestingly, Revelation 11:1, 2 links these events to a time when the spiritual temple would be measured, or evaluated. Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4) How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919. This period of time includes both the 1,260 days (42 months) and the symbolic three and a half days referred to in Revelation chapter 11.
How happy we are that Jehovah arranged for this spiritual refining work to cleanse a special people for fine works! (Titus 2:14) Additionally, we appreciate the example set by the faithful anointed ones who took the lead during that time of testing and thereby served as the symbolic two witnesses.

[JW Insider]

Caution: my own commentary will likely seem critical of the interpretation given by the Watchtower publications, for reasons that I will try to make clear. Not because the WT interpretations are necessarily wrong, but because they are so often presented as fact in so many publications, when overall, it is just an interpretation. The following was said in the "Revelation - Grand Climax" book, which explains why no interpretation, except that given in the Bible itself, should be treated as a fact.

*** re chap. 2 p. 9 The Grand Theme of the Bible ***
Interpreting the Scriptures The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God’s due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when, and to whom? Only God’s spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Revelation 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God’s zealous slaves on earth so that they would be strengthened to make known his judgments. (Matthew 13:10, 11) It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times.

A couple of the ideas found in this same book have already undergone some changes. TTH commented on the underlined part of the above quotation saying:

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since the writers plainly state up front that they could be wrong, I take everything in that spirit. I strive to get my head around whatever they are saying & and discern how they came to think as they do because I do not want to be like Diotrophes, who “receives nothing from us with respect.” But it is all tentative—it represents to me the best thinking out there. It doesn’t mean that nobody else can think.

That's the spirit in which I would like to share a possibly "simpler" reading of this portion of Revelation. Some might not think the current explanation is complex, but I think when we look into it carefully, we can see that our current explanation produces some complexities that aren't seen until we reflect and meditate on the scriptures involved. And, of course, some might think that a supposedly "simpler" reading is wrong. That's quite alright, because I'm not 100 percent happy with it either.

So here's hoping that others can defend what's right with the current definition, and what's wrong with the alternatives, or vice versa.

[JW Insider]

You can't see the exact dates from either of the two charts, but if you can read a timeline closely, you can see that the intent is to show a date from what looks like about December 1, 1914, up until a date that's about 45 percent into 1918. That would map to around mid-June 1918.

These positions in the chart are on purpose. The intended dates start in December 1914 and end in June 1918. To keep it simple, 1918 is never shown in the chart, nor in the text of the explanation in the 2014 Watchtower. This is because the previous year, 2013, the Watchtower dropped the second of two major prophetic fulfillments that were supposed to have happened in 1918, and so 1918 has barely been mentioned since 2013.

But the 1988 Revelation book gave the intended dates:

*** re chap. 25 p. 164 par. 12 Reviving the Two Witnesses ***
Additionally, at the beginning of the Lord’s day, there was a marked period of three and a half years when the hard experiences of God’s people matched the events prophesied here—starting in December 1914 and continuing to June 1918. (Revelation 1:10)

Most of us surely know what happened in June 1918. But since we are supposedly counting out a LITERAL 1260 days, we might wish to see if we can get this a little closer. So here are the 1918 dates as reported in the 1975 Yearbook (among other places):

*** yb75 p. 105 Part 1—United States of America ***
They were released on bail and appeared in court on May 15, 1918. The trial was set for June 3, 1918 . . . Finally, after the lengthy trial [15 days], the awaited day of decision arrived. June 20, 1918, at about 5:00 p.m., the case went to the jury. . . .Sentencing took place on June 21. The courtroom was full. . . .The trial had lasted for fifteen days. . . . While their case was on appeal,. . . they first were held in Brooklyn’s Raymond Street jail . . . .  That unpleasant week-long stay was followed by another week spent in the Long Island City prison. Finally, on the fourth of July, United States Independence Day, the unjustly condemned men were sent on their way by train to the Atlanta, Georgia, penitentiary. . .  

*** yb75 p. 117 Part 2—United States of America ***
On March 21, 1919, United States Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis ordered bail for the eight imprisoned brothers and directed that they should be given the right to an appeal on April 14 of that year. They were released promptly and on Tuesday, March 25, they left Atlanta penitentiary by train. Back in Brooklyn on March 26, 1919, federal authorities released the brothers on bail of $10,000 each, pending further trial. . . On the evening of April 1, 1919, another banquet was held for the released brothers by the Watch Tower office force at Hotel Chatham in Pittsburgh. . . . The case of the eight Bible Students was due to be heard on appeal on April 14, 1919. They then had a hearing before the Federal Second Circuit Court of Appeals at New York city. On May 14, 1919, their erroneous convictions were reversed.

Evidently the June 1918 date refers to the trial that took up most of that month up until June 20/21, or perhaps the entire month since they remained in jail without bail and therefore in custody of prison guards from July 4, 1918 through March 26, 1919.

*** dp chap. 9 p. 143 par. 31 Who Will Rule the World? ***
Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918.

So what's the problem?

• Going back 1260 days from June 21, 1918 brings you to January 8, 1915.
• So you can't reach from June 21, 1918 back to 1914 with just 1,260 days.

Try Excel functions or even online date calculators like this https://planetcalc.com/274/

You can't even get even one day of 1914 into the prophecy if you start at the climax of the trial.

• December 31, 1914 to June 21, 1918 is 1268 days.

But it is clearly very important to start this prophecy in 1914 into this prophecy. And by showing a date of about December 1, 1914 on each of the charts to bury the beginning of the days even a little deeper into 1914 it implies an end date of about May 15, 1918 to be an actual literal 1,260 days. (Which happens to land on the day they were first released on bail and went to court but free until the trial that lasted from June 3 to June 21, 1918)

It's true that from somewhere near the very end of December 1914, to somewhere near the early part of June 1918 is a literal 1,260 days. No specific event is given for December 1914. December just happens to be how far back the dates allow you to land if don't go past the middle of June 1918, somewhere in the middle of the trial.

So why not go from the trial or the even the July 4, 1918 date when they were off to Federal Prison as the end date, and then be forced to start the period in early 1915? Why is it so important to at last catch the tail end of 1914 into this prophecy, when no specific event or turning point happened in December 1914? In fact the only turning point ever given so far regarding December is that this is when the new year text motto was announced!

It's pretty easy to spot when the change to this period began. For years the time was started on October 4/5, 1914 for obvious reasons, and it therefore had to end on between March 17 and March 26, 1918. That's how it appeared in 1975:

*** yb75 pp. 103-104 Part 1—United States of America ***
After early October 1914, Christ’s anointed followers proclaimed that the Gentile Times had ended and that the nations were approaching their destruction at Armageddon. (Luke 21:24; Rev. 16:14-16) These figurative “two witnesses” declared this mournful message for the nations for 1,260 days, or three and a half years (October 4/5, 1914, to March 26/27, 1918). Then the Devil’s beastly political system warred against God’s “two witnesses,” eventually ‘killing’ them as far as their tormenting work of prophesying “in sackcloth” was concerned, to the great relief of their religious, political, military and judicial foes. (Rev. 11:3-7; 13:1) That was the prophecy, and it was fulfilled. But how?

This period from October 4/5, 1914 to March 26/27, 1918 is also not 1260, but it's 1,269 days, only 9 days off, and with a fairly acceptable reason for making it 9 days off with some adjustments based on the Jewish lunar calendar. Yet, even very minor adjustments have been treated very differently when discussing the 2,520 days of Daniel 4.

The change happened in 1977 with a book written by F W Franz, One World Government (the "go" book). This book focused on the time period from Daniel which has almost always been linked to the same events. 

*** go chap. 8 p. 131 par. 23 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***
This they accomplished by the end of the foretold three and a half years on June 21, 1918. Thus this period began on December 28, 1914,

That's 1,271 days! Franz realized that this was an extremely late date in 1914, so he was the one who also spoke of the announcement of the new year text as somehow significant.  It was "Are ye able to drink of my cup?" --Mt 20:22. He had tied it to the pressure the Bible Students would be under in European countries to compromise and go to war in 1915.

That original time period seemed OK, so why was it so important to adjust it forward by about 2 to 3 months?

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.

I have always wondered if there is any actual evidence for this statement. Are there any recorded quotes made by such opponents? I am not doubting that there is, I was just wondering if you had any. I do know that religious oponents were behind the series of brutal attacks on Witnesses during the 30's and 40's. But I can't seem to find anything about who was behind the arrest and conviction of Rutherford and the others...

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

But I can't seem to find anything about who was behind the arrest and conviction of Rutherford and the others...

It was always blamed mostly on the Catholics, but mostly through innuendo. Judge Howe, the primary judge, would not give them bail in 1918. But a Judge Mantey made a bigger deal out of it. If they had gotten bail, they may have been able to stay out of jail until the appeals process was finished, which could easily have lasted the number of months they were in prison. In other words, there probably would never have been any prison, if they got bail. And when the case went to appeal Judge Mantey still dissented on the bail issue, even after a year, but it didn't override the other two judges (including Howe) who allowed the appeal on $10,000 bail apiece. Judge Mantey was a Catholic, with high respect by the church, and even had an unrelated commendation from the Vatican. And he also got in legal trouble for taking bribes later in his career.

Also, the book "Finished Mystery" was first banned in Canada before the USA followed suit. In Canada, where many Catholics live, preachers had spoken out against the book on religious grounds, too, not just political grounds.

But during these times, several anti-war preachers and religious leaders and political activists went to prison under exactly the same charges. Some of these others spent much longer in jail than the brothers in the Society.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

Are there any recorded quotes made by such opponents? I am not doubting that there is, I was just wondering if you had any.

Nothing specific. The Brooklyn Eagle never liked the Bible Students and often exposed legal issues that Russell had gone through. It's hard to read some of their reporting of the trial without detecting just a bit of "gloating."

Adding: I read about 1,000 pages of FBI files from the time they were still putting together the evidence for a case. This was mostly starting around late-February 1918, and I see nothing even in the earliest correspondence that was religious in nature. It was very political in nature. The FBI (and Justice Dept lawyers) and War Department were writing back and forth in some of the earliest correspondence, and they obviously didn't like anyone who might discourage the draft or who might promote ideas for how to avoid the draft.

[b4ucuhear]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Killed: After preaching for three and a half years “in sackcloth,” they were “killed” when they were imprisoned and forced into inactivity
• Returned to life: At the end of the symbolic three and a half days, they returned to life when they were released from prison and resumed taking the lead in the preaching work

Associated comments state: "Notice that in examining the experiences of God's people at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent a literal three and a half years, the three and a half days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. LIKELY, the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only a short period compared with the actual three and a half years of activity that precede it."

So it may well be that a contrast is being made regarding the time periods mentioned. But, on the other hand, I also see that one time period (three and a half days) is not consistently rendered as a literal time period whereas the three and a half years is understood to be literal - both time periods within the span of a few verses in the same chapter of Revelation 11. While I understand their reasoning for that - there was nothing to suggest anything of significance happened on the three and a half days, it does seem arbitrary - to make things fit. But for now, until they come up with more details, I'll roll with it. 

[TrueTomHarley]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

I have always wondered if there is any actual evidence for this statement. Are there any recorded quotes made by such opponents?

Do someone a favor on eBay. (not me)—buy the book Preachers Present Arms:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Preachers-Present-Arms-Watchtower-Research-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Bible-Students-/392264778720

“Years later, in the book Preachers Present Arms, Dr. Ray Abrams observed: “It is significant that so many clergymen took an aggressive part in trying to get rid of the Russellites [as the Bible Students were derogatorily labeled]. Long-lived religious quarrels and hatreds, which did not receive any consideration in the courts in time of peace, now found their way into the courtroom under the spell of war-time hysteria.” He also stated: “An analysis of the whole case leads to the conclusion that the churches and the clergy were originally behind the movement to stamp out the Russellites.”—Pp. 183-5.

        “And the Revelation book states :   In his book Preachers Present Arms, published in 1933, Ray H. Abrams refers to the clergy’s bitter opposition to the Bible Students’ book The Finished Mystery. He reviews the clergy’s endeavors to rid themselves of the Bible Students and their “pestilential persuasion.” This led to the court case that resulted in sentencing of J. F. Rutherford and seven companions to long years of imprisonment. Dr. Abrams adds: “An analysis of the whole case leads to the conclusion that the churches and the clergy were originally behind the movement to stamp out the Russellites. In Canada, in February, 1918, the ministers began a systematic campaign against them and their publications, particularly The Finished Mystery. According to the Winnipeg Tribune, . . . the suppression of their book was believed to have been directly brought about by the ‘representations of the clergy.’”

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

t was always blamed mostly on the Catholics, but mostly through innuendo. Judge Howe, the primary judge, ..Judge Mantey was a Catholic, with high respect by the church, and even had an unrelated commendation from the Vatican. And he also got in legal trouble for taking bribes later in his career.

One thing I find frustrating is that, while church leaders were instigators of trouble against us back then, this is not true today, and yet we carry on as though it were. Enemies are mostly irreligious now, yet we carry on as if it can only be religion behind our opposition. It is a living in the past and can be seen even in the sample silhouette presentation in which the householder says that he prefers his Bible—the King James Version. Nobody uses the KJV today but the reddist of the rednecks. 

[Anna]

36 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

church leaders were instigators of trouble against us back then, this is not true today,

I do believe though that the church is behind the persecution in Russia, indirectly.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do someone a favor on eBay. (not me)—buy the book Preachers Present Arms:

I'm doing that right now. I've always meant to, but hoped the previews would be enough to get a full sense of the author's purposes and possibly any biases. (The 2009 version has quite a bit of preview available on Google Books.)

I believe the case in Canada against the Bible Students and "The Finished Mystery" started out as religious backlash against Rutherford's vilification of the churches, especially the "attacks" on Roman Catholicism. And some of the quotes that tie religion to the case against Rutherford actually appear to be about the situation in Canada, not the United States.

I notice quite a bit of exaggeration in the claim that "everyone rejoiced" when they were locked up (and that there was silence when they were released). I'm told that one of the ways in which the couple thousand Bible Students obtained those 700,000 signatures in 1918 to allow bail when on appeal, was due to Catholic organizations that sided with the Watchtower. This was only a months after the imprisonment. I don't think you will see any information about that reported in our publications, nor in Preachers Present Arms, but I'll look for it.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 minute ago, Anna said:

I do believe though that the church is behind the persecution in Russia, indirectly.

They have said that they were not behind the ban, and I tend to take them at their word. That is not to say that they did not jump up and down like kids on Christmas morning. They did. But with a certain amount of reserve, because in an irreligious world, the target will eventually be them.

I believe it is an anti-cult movement, primarily irreligious, that spearheads the persecution of us, and then the ROC jumps onboard with a MeToo endorsement. I wrote about it a lot in Dear Mr. Putin, and stories such as these were a prime source:

https://www.scientologyreligion.no/blog/daily-caller-exposes-french-campaign-behind-russias-ban-of-jehovahs-witnesses.html

https://www.standleague.org/news/french-government-confronted-on-its-funding-of-religious-hate.html

I also think that we don’t see it primarily because we put blinders on ourselves by fleeing from whatever is “apostate.” Apostates embrace much of this. They don’t go back to the Church. They go in for “anti-cultism.” The present stand may be scriptural—and as scriptural, it will carry the day—but a downside is that it deprives us of seeing just who the enemy is. 

This departs from JWI’s thread and I don’t want to derail it. He’s “earned” his right to float the ideas that he does, and I sometimes wonder what I would be doing if I had the Bethel background that he does. Everyone brings a different gift. Chronology is not my gig, and I have written that all those dates circa 1900 are like that time you missed the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swung several times more, again missing each time. That’s flippant, of course, but it just represents my tip of the hat to let others haggle it out. I’ve no problem with him doing it. He’s put the work into it and  is not like 95% of those who carry on about 607–who wouldn’t know a Babylonian conquest from a pin cushion were it not for an opportunity they sense to make it hot for JWs and who get their heads around it only enough to satisfy that purpose. 

Maybe he can branch this thread off into a separate topic. He has the power and the spirit to do it, granted him by the Great Antitypical Librarian.

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I notice quite a bit of exaggeration in the claim that "everyone rejoiced" when they were locked up (and that there was silence when they were released).

The excerpt I quoted do not include Abrams most telling words—that (this is not an exact quote, but hopefully close) ‘when news of the verdict was announced, the clergy rejoiced. I have been unable to find any words of sympathy in any newsletters of the churches expressing any sympathy,’ and an observation that the Witnesses had made themselves “prophets of Baal” to them.

And to think that I once just checked the book out of the library, avoiding the $50 cost. It was the 2009 edition, which Abrams expanded to include the Vietnam War, and possibly not all the quotes regarding the Atlanta doings are there. 

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/enemies.html

Rats. This post has quotes from PPA but not the ones regarding the trial. It is back there somewhere in the archives.

[TrueTomHarley]

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

to allow bail when on appeal, was due to Catholic organizations that sided with the Watchtower. 

We kicked religion around mightily in those days because they would try to run us off the road. Place a tract in a Catholic neighborhood and the priest would follow-up on the householder and demand he relinquish it! Frankly, if Babylon the Great has “fallen,” I think we had a lot to do with it.

Yet we continue to do all we can to diss the church. It is not inappropriate, but it works to the exclusion of recognizing that our enemies today come from somewhere else. Why kick the old lady while she is down? We kicked her while she was up, and now she becomes just one of several detractors and I think not the most powerful one.

On the anti-JW websites, there are occasionally small areas like that where Witness hails from that are still religious. But by far the pattern is to go and discover a complete lack respect whatsoever of God on these sites, much less a fear of him. Atheism is all the rage today, or an agnosticism that so closely resembles it that not all can tell the difference—belief in God is okay so long as it doesn’t cause any significant deviation from the thinking and goals of today’s secular world. Anything that does cause deviation is a “cult.”

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Most of this is beyond me but I've noticed that you are working from the year 1914 (the setting up of the Heavenly Kingdom), and I had thought that 1914 itself was in question on here somewhere ?  Is the date 1914 firmly established as TRUTH in your eyes, or is it the case that 'if you say it enough, people will believe it'. 

@TrueTomHarley Does the JW Org really have 'enemies' now ? I mean real opposition ? Obviously on the door to door work you expect to encounter some form of opposition against the beliefs and teachings of the GB and the Org. But are you suggesting there are groups of people deliberately causing problems for the Org right now ?  That would be religious persecution. 

Of course the CSA accusations earthwide give some people real reasons to turn against the JW Org, but that is not opposition to the beliefs or teachings, it is opposition to Child Sexual Abuse. That is NOT religious persecution. It is genuine hate of child abuse.