Posts moved from a recent topic about a J.F.Rutherford book

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

3 hours ago, Witness said:

There are already movements by elders, to remove the GB.

Sounds doubtful. Almost as if it needs to be true just to make that particular interpretation work. Worse than eisegesis.

Perhaps @Witness needs to go careful ? She may find herself at the end of Billy the Kids rope as i did. 

We have to be careful what we say about the GB don't we ? 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Pure worship book: "Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved  at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally."  It doesn't say "And you must listen to instructions to go and hide in an attic/basement/forest and get vaccinated" Or whatever the case may be....

Very domineering indeed. Because the so called, 'preaching work' is actually just handing out the Governing Body's written words, not God's. The baptism is getting baptised into the JW org. AND, the only one's of Christ's brothers we get to know about is the Governing Body who call themsleves the F&DS. 

So it all very slyly comes together as, be a slave of the GB and it's org. 

[Anna]

@Patiently waiting for Truth 

We have already discussed on here quite a number of times that not everyone will get the chance to react favorably to the preaching work. This is talking about those who know what they should be doing and don't do it. 

There is nothing wrong or sinister about supporting "Christ's brothers". Supporting one another is a good thing in the Christian congregation, wouldn't you agree? 

[Pudgy]

It makes me very nervous when my Guardian gets up out of his chair and says “I’m going to have to put Pudgy down“.

[Witness]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What do you mean?

Aside from a comment made under a video saying individuals in Bethel are “planning” to take down the GB, what I’m referring to specifically, was stated directly from an elder. That’s all I am able to tell you. 

 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sounds doubtful. Almost as if it needs to be true just to make that particular interpretation work. Worse than eisegesis.

Scripture interprets scripture. Watchtower does not use scripture in identifying the two Beasts of Revelation (one being a false prophet/harlot, Rev 13:11,12)  They use their own ideas and always have, the very definition of eisegesis.  For example, regarding the "king of the north", whatever suits their situation at the time, it somehow takes on a new identity.

The Harlot exercises authority over, or “rides” the Beast/organization. (Rev 13:12; 17:3) Why would this Harlot represent the religions of the world including Christendom, when they were never under covenant with God? If the world’s religions (the Wt. focuses on Christendom) are the Harlot of Revelation, what were they before becoming one? Do you really believe that everyone in another religion can be labeled as "harlots" - people who love God and Jesus Christ?   Israel was labeled a harlot when it withdrew from God’s commands, breaking its covenant, sinning and committing idolatry. (Jer 2:11,20; 13:27; Hos 4:15; Ps 106:39)

By using scripture to interpret Revelation, Jesus’ message is to his people under covenant, the anointed, who are committing idolatry as members of the organization, that they must dedicate their lives to. (Rev 3:18-22; 13:16,17;18:4-8)  

Have you ever noticed that the “kings of the earth” are found in opposition of each other in Revelation?  (Rev 19:19;16:14;13:5-7) Have you recognized that all of these “kings” belong to Jesus Christ? (Rev 1:5)  In the Kingdom, will the “kings of the earth” serving in the Temple of God, be political rulers, or instead would they be the faithful “kings” who spoke the truth in Christ, fighting against the wayward “kings”, who broke their covenant to serve an idol – the Beast of Rev. 13:1?  (Rev 21:24; 5:9,10)

The composite Harlot is a Beast from the earth, “kings” and leadership of “Israel”. (Rom 2:28,29; Gal 3:29 Rev 13:11,12)  They are included as the “heads” of the organization, the Beast from the Sea which they direct, which by they way, "makes war with the saints". (Rev 13:1,2, 5-7)

The Harlot will be removed by the organization of elders, and other anointed (ten kings) joining them. (Rev 17:15-17) From there, they will try to reorganize the Wt, but this "man of lawlessness" will last only for one symbolic "hour".  (Rev 17:12; 13:18; 2 Thess 2:3,4,8,9)

The Harlot "woman" reigns over the "kings of the earth" - Christ's kings.  Rev 17:18; 1:5 

 

[Pudgy]

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[Witness]

56 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:

G-d will decide if and when the Watchtower stops functioning for the public.

Your are right, and it happens in steps.  First the GB goes, and then the "mountainlike organization".  (Rev 17:17; 8:8; Zech 4:6-7; Rev 14:6-12)

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

@Patiently waiting for Truth 

We have already discussed on here quite a number of times that not everyone will get the chance to react favorably to the preaching work. This is talking about those who know what they should be doing and don't do it. 

There is nothing wrong or sinister about supporting "Christ's brothers". Supporting one another is a good thing in the Christian congregation, wouldn't you agree? 

Your comment has no relevance to mine. 

1. The preaching work should be directly from God's Scriptures, not preaching the 'good news' of the GB / JW org.

2. Baptism should be "In the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit" NOT batism into the JW Org.

3. supporting Christ's Brothers would mean knowing who they are BUT they are told to keep quiet and not make themselves known. Only the GB members are known (possibly) anointed ones. So that Pure worship quote is slying saying 'support the GB' but pretending to say support the Anointed. 

To wrap that all up neatly, that Pure w book is saying 'Teach what the GB tells you to teach, Get baptised into the organsation, and be a slave to the GB. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Your are right, and it happens in steps.  First the GB goes, and then the "mountainlike organization".  (Rev 17:17; 8:8; Zech 4:6-7; Rev 14:6-12)

 

I would love to agree with you but.............. 

I still keep coming back to these two things. 

1. Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew (spiritual Jew obviously)  We will go with you as we know God is with you.

2. Berean Study Bible
‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on My menservants and maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Acts 2 : 17 & 18 

Hence i believe some type or Organised Activity (not necessarily an Organisation) has to take place before Armageddon.

I am not like the protestors that want to destoy everything but replace with nothing. I know there is a need to be organised. BUT of course there needs to be 'signs' that the organising comes from God through Christ. 

 

[Witness]

9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Hence i believe some type or Organised Activity (not necessarily an Organisation) has to take place before Armageddon.

I hope you can believe when I say that Acts 2:17,18 is already happening.  The promises you have given us, are reliable and true.  It will be “organized” according to God’s will. But I feel that for anyone passing through here, I need to explain the severity of the times we are in; which is contrary in content to what the Wt. believes. 

The Wt. must be taken down, because as you know, the anointed priesthood – those “living stones” of the Temple of God - have been trampled down and replaced. (Dan 8:13; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17)   This is what the “man of lawlessness” predicted to appear in the last days, fully accomplishes.  (2 Thess 2:3,4 ) Elders “sit” in the Temple of God. They have symbolically “entered” God’s sanctuary as an “abomination standing in the holy place”. Matt 24:15,16.  They are “standing where they ought not”.  (Mark 13:14)  They are a massive army of spiritual “Gentiles”. When we perceive this, we are to flee the organization before its destruction. (Rev 18:4-8)  Revelation 11:1,2 says that the temple has been given over to these Gentiles, the “holy city” has been trampled.  This was written after the destruction of Jerusalem - it applies to our day – those who comprise “New Jerusalem”  (Gal 4:26)

2 Thess. 2 calls the abomination standing in the holy place of Matt 24:15,16,  the “man of lawlessness”.  (2 Thess 2:3)  Revelation 13:18 tells us its number – 666 – the number of a man.  It is describing the Beast from the Sea (Isa 57:20), the Beast that blasphemes the sanctuary of God, and makes war with the saints. (Rev 13: 5-7; 20:7-9)  By putting the pieces together, we see that the Wt. was formulated by Satan to make war with the remaining ones of the “woman’s seed”.  How?  Through a flood of lies.  (Rev 12:15,17)  The anointed are gathered together by Satan and the Beasts of Rev 13, for the war of the Great Day of God the Almighty. (Rev 16:13-16) No outside political entity can “gather” the saints/”kings of the earth” together for Armageddon, as Rev 16:14 tells us. They have already been gathered into the organization.   We have to remember that Satan takes us down through deceit, which is what the two Beast together, have accomplished.  (Dan 8:24; Rev 13:14; 19:20; 20:10)

The GB acts as ruling priests, yet all other anointed must not act in that capacity; the leadership has given that job to “Gentile” elders, who “represent the royal priesthood”. (Matt 24:48-51)  They have made Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul – all the apostles, out to be liars.   (Matt 28:16-20)

Paul said, “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? ⁵ I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?”  1 Cor 6:4,5

The Wt. tells the anointed that they will not be active priests until the Kingdom, so they use this excuse to replace them. "Gentile" elders become the active priests.  This is so twisted.   But these scriptures show us that in this life, they are to be the active priests and judges in the congregations, not “Gentile” elders who “represent” them.  (Mal 2:7)

Always, when God’s priesthood was replaced, or Gentiles entered the Temple, it was considered an abomination. (Ezek 44:6-9)  People who did so, died for their brazen actions. Korah’s rebellion and the loss of life that ensued, is a primary example.  (Exod 40:15; Num 3:10; 2 Chron 13:9; Num chapter 16)

 The anointed are the dwelling of God’s Holy Spirit.  That is not a small thing, yet the Wt makes sarcastic light of it by saying,

“Modestly, anointed ones acknowledge that they do not necessarily have more holy spirit than those with an earthly hope. They do not claim to have special knowledge or revelations; neither do they try to prove that they are in some way superior.”  Es 2017, pg 58

1 Cor chapter 12, Rom 12:3-8 and Eph 4:11-16, say otherwise. How bold of them, to pull the humility card, yet honor “Gentiles” standing in the holy place.  God’s chosen people receive their praise from Him, and their guidance and instruction from their Master, Jesus Christ – not from mere, uninspired men.  (Rom 2:28,29)  Can you see how they have not only used deceptive, suggestive wording, but slandered  the Temple of God and God Himself, who is Spirit? (John 4:24)  They have committed a sin against the Holy Spirit, over and over again through their blasphemy against each “living stone”, the spiritual dwelling of God.

So although JWs here think that I am exalting myself somehow, by explaining the Temple of God and the transgressions against it by the Wt., it is their own blasphemy being committed against the Father and His Temple dwelling built on His Son, and blaspheming the chosen ones who reside right with them.  They refuse to consider the truth in God’s Word. They prefer the words of spiritual harlots. (Rev 18:7) They love their organization built on the elder body. (Rev 13:8)  

1 Cor 3:16,17 – “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone ^[a]defiles (destroys) the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

How can the anointed hearts be destroyed, if not through the whole concept of the “abomination standing in the holy place”?  This is why the organization, and its leadership will be eliminated.  This abomination has become their idol, replacing God’s Temple.  (Rev 2:20; 13:15-17)

“Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. (Satan) ⁷ For the ^[d]mystery (“hidden truth”) of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, ¹⁰ and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

JWs are blind; they refuse to see what the organization has accomplished in destroying God’s Temple. (Rev 3:18; 16:15) The truth about this abomination will open up and they will have to face what they are presently supporting, the true identity of the man of lawlessness.  (Rev 17:8)

Isa 63:18 – “Your holy people possessed Your sanctuary for a little while, Our adversaries have trampled it down.”

Dan 11:31 - "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.”

Joel 1:13,15 - Put on [sackcloth] And mourn, you priests; Wail, you ministers of the altar! Come, spend the night in sackcloth, You ministers of my God, For the grain offering and the drink offering Have been withheld from the house of your God.

Woe for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Rev 11:1-3  - Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. ² But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city (“New Jerusalem”/Temple) underfoot for forty-two months. ³ And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

This is the prophesy being given today, to "Israel" and all with them.  Matt 10:23

Thus, Armageddon is not about the world of politics and religions primarily.  It involves the transgressions committed by God’s chosen people and against them, just as what has happened in the past.  But this transgression will be the last to ever occur.  Dan 7:11-14

9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

BUT of course there needs to be 'signs' that the organising comes from God through Christ. 

The “signs” of the Temple being restored, and the priesthood submitting to refinement and repentance, is already happening, but will become clearer in these last days. 

Mal 3:1-5; Matt 17:11; Isa 14:1; Jer 30:18-22; Zech 8:23; 9:16; Zech 4:6,7; Rom 8:19-22; Isa 2:1-4

 

[Witness]

18 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Just like you claim you came into new light about the Watchtower, someone showed you that new light. Therefore, you were taught by means of another. You cannot escape that fact, no matter how hard you try to justify it.

I would never try to escape that fact.  I am very grateful that God sent His messenger to explain the deceit used against His people.  I am grateful that I had the courage to stand up against lies, even though this meant a disfellowshipping, and joined this messenger in support of the truth in Jesus Christ.  Hab 2:1; Mal 3:1-4; Matt 17:11; Rev 11:1-3

[TrueTomHarley]

Okay, so now we have Pudgy integrated into the closed forum and hopefully it will stick. Now let’s extend that invitation to @WalterPrescott, which is trickier. It’s trickier because he is so combative, to the point where I and others have wondered if he can possibly be a brother. But I’ve now come around to thinking he is, even if a contankerous one, so he should not be abandoned to where the spiritual rebels are. He should ‘come home.’

Of course, there must be some caveats. Some have noted that in private he is gracious, not argumentative as he is in public. He would have to be equally civil were he to join the closed club. He would have to ‘let Anna be Anna, Arauana be Arauana, JWI be JWI, xero be xero, thinking be thinking, and MOST of all, TTH be TTH. The latter does not have to be kissed up to, though that is of course preferred. 

So Walter has this gig going that no one can quite figure out. He may prefer to stay here combatting the riffraff. Or he may figure that the ‘loyal’ Witnesses are also riffraff and wish to rebuke them for any wordage that does not appear word-for-word in Watchtower publications. If so, please do not accept the closed forum’s invitation. But you are our brother and so it is appropriate to make it, so as not to abandon you to where the miscreants hang out, unless you wish to remain there or somehow perceive it as your calling to fight with them.