Jehovah's Witnesses' "Hailstone Message"

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

 It is a prophecy...... so in my mind's eye - I know it will happen.  I believe jehovah's Word.

I believe Jehovah's word too. In the case of the "hailstones message" we don't know if this will be a verbal message, and if yes, we don't know if it will be declared by us...so that's why we will have to wait and see...

[JJJ-AUSTRALIA]

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

I was thinking of the day Brother Russell began near 1878. 

1914 harmonizes with the persecution that began shortly after that. Why did persecution break out?

Re.12:12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

When Jesus was Anointed as the 1st King of God's Kingdom, we went through the Heavens, ousting Satan and other opposers of Jehovah.

Many Books are written about how people changed after 1914. People used to leave the door open when they went for groceries or such, they would turn the porch chair around, that people could see from the sidewalk they were gone. Think of that, they were actually concerned someone would make a wasted walk up the sidewalk!

What organization was persecuted? The one Satan knew Jesus was leading!

You do know the reason why the persecution of the head of the watchtower started in1914?

[JW Insider]

16 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 harmonizes with the persecution that began shortly after that. Why did persecution break out?

No persecution broke out against anyone associated with the Watchtower in 1914, or 1915, or 1916. Does this mean that it took Jesus a very long time to battle with Satan before he could finally throw him out of heaven? I don't think that was the issue at all!

Brother Russell died just two months shy of 1917, and so there was only a very short time before the next election. As the Watch Tower's and Brother Russell's attorney since 1907, Brother Rutherford had made himself the most prominent, and he was the most active in trying to make sure that the Watchtower didn't end up in the hands of the persons that Russell had picked. This was probably a good thing, because those persons whom Russell had picked were not immediately active in trying to pick up the reins of the Watchtower, because it made more sense that "the Lord" was about to act on their behalf, and that they should just go on doing things the way Russell had wanted by following his "last will and testament" and expecting things to just work out for the best. Especially because it appeared that the expected "END" was now more than 24 months overdue. They expected that Russell, whom they saw as a "SAINT" was still actively running the Society from heaven. 

But Rutherford was quite different, and he had just completed a work in 1915 that showed that, as Russell's attorney, he knew all the potential scandals that Russell had been associated with. He would not have had the attitude that things will just work out because "SAINT" Russell was still running things from the other side of the veil. He was many times more practical, and used the opportunity to gain control of the Watchtower. It looked like the Watchtower would have completely flailed into oblivion without Rutherford at the head. He brought things to a head by the middle of 1917 with the release of "The Finished Mystery" in July, at the same time that Russell dismissed a majority of the 7 directors.

It was this point that brought some measure of persecution to the doors of the Watchtower. The majority of the directors felt that Rutherford was persecuting the Watch Tower Society, by becoming autocratic and not following Russell's "last will," and by going against the articles of incorporation of the Watch Tower Society. But again, this majority "turned the other cheek" instead of standing up for themselves, probably with the same idea that the Lord would provide, and that Russell, although he had died, had been immediately resurrected and would actively run things from the other side of the veil.

Of course, Rutherford, and the two directors that stayed with him, felt that it was the four ousted directors who were persecuting them, and when Rutherford replaced those four with persons loyal to him, this became the only way to look at it. Their persecution failed to touch Rutherford though, and Rutherford had won. So except for some legal maneuvering, there was really no persecution on anyone even in 1916 and most of 1917.

But the book that Fisher and Woodworth had written, the Finished Mystery, had gone much further than Russell ever did in speaking out against war and speaking out against the religions that supported war. This got them in trouble in Canada first where religious leaders felt especially "persecuted" by the book, so they got behind some legal maneuvering to get the book banned. With war hysteria high, it was the perfect time to get some action that might not have otherwise been taken against the Bible Students there.

By 1918 the United States Justice Dept with it's Bureau of Investigation was already arresting people and preachers and activists who were speaking out against the draft, and therefore the people behind the Finished Mystery were already in the sights of the government. The book was banned and several brothers all around the United States were arrested and some served jail terms. When the Society itself was investigated, the Society was found to have also been peripherally involved in helping persons try to avoid the draft, but in a way that was careful enough to probably not have resulted in a win against the Society after appeal. But they were arrested for trial and lost the first trial which dealt mostly with the Finished Mystery, but they were not allowed bail during the appeal process so that the directors had to spend several months in Federal Prison while waiting for the appeal.

This was pretty much the entire persecution! It was a very low level of persecution when we consider what kind of religious persecution had been going on in various countries between Catholics and Protestants, "Christians" and Jews, "Christians" and Native Americans, "Christians" and colonial non-Christians, a few other relgiously motivated persecutions around the world.

It also seemed like an extremely low level of persecution when we consider what Satan has been able to accomplish since then among other peoples, where religious differences have provoked war and persecution that ended up killing literally millions.

What it did do that seemed significant was nearly put the Bible Students and the Watchtower Society out of business. But the Watchtower continued to be published during this period. Also after the President of the WTS got out of prison in May 1919, the trial was discontinued because the US prosecution was pretty sure it could not win such a trial outside of wartime. Rutherford immediately started up the campaign for the predictions due in 1925. This campaign was called "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." That campaign kept the Watch Tower Society alive and motivated, although its failure, along with the removal of the unique doctrines of Russell resulted in the decimation of the numbers of Bible Students from 1926 through the end of that decade.

[the Sower of Seed]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

No persecution broke out against anyone associated with the Watchtower in 1914, or 1915, or 1916

I did not mean to state that persecution began against the leadership with the war.

However "no persecution", This seems to be a little to broad of a statement. Did not many brothers join in the war? We need not debate why. The delay before turning to the leadership could be that Satan and his cronies were satisfied with the terror the war was bringing to people everywhere.

Who were persecuted? the Catholic? the Baptist? ? No, Jehovah's Witnesses were denied the same civil rights afforded other citizens.

If I push a point, it is that persecution against the Jehovah's Witnesses raged in Canada and the US for many years after WW1, not all at once, but in one locality after another, into the 60's where some were bused to neighboring state lines because of neutrality.

Atrocities happened in the Bible Belt that were not ever written about!

[JJJ-AUSTRALIA]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

No persecution broke out against anyone associated with the Watchtower in 1914, or 1915, or 1916. Does this mean that it took Jesus a very long time to battle with Satan before he could finally throw him out of heaven? I don't think that was the issue at all!

Brother Russell died just two months shy of 1917, and so there was only a very short time before the next election. As the Watch Tower's and Brother Russell's attorney since 1907, Brother Rutherford had made himself the most prominent, and he was the most active in trying to make sure that the Watchtower didn't end up in the hands of the persons that Russell had picked. This was probably a good thing, because those persons whom Russell had picked were not immediately active in trying to pick up the reins of the Watchtower, because it made more sense that "the Lord" was about to act on their behalf, and that they should just go on doing things the way Russell had wanted by following his "last will and testament" and expecting things to just work out for the best. Especially because it appeared that the expected "END" was now more than 24 months overdue. They expected that Russell, whom they saw as a "SAINT" was still actively running the Society from heaven. 

But Rutherford was quite different, and he had just completed a work in 1915 that showed that, as Russell's attorney, he knew all the potential scandals that Russell had been associated with. He would not have had the attitude that things will just work out because "SAINT" Russell was still running things from the other side of the veil. He was many times more practical, and used the opportunity to gain control of the Watchtower. It looked like the Watchtower would have completely flailed into oblivion without Rutherford at the head. He brought things to a head by the middle of 1917 with the release of "The Finished Mystery" in July, at the same time that Russell dismissed a majority of the 7 directors.

It was this point that brought some measure of persecution to the doors of the Watchtower. The majority of the directors felt that Rutherford was persecuting the Watch Tower Society, by becoming autocratic and not following Russell's "last will," and by going against the articles of incorporation of the Watch Tower Society. But again, this majority "turned the other cheek" instead of standing up for themselves, probably with the same idea that the Lord would provide, and that Russell, although he had died, had been immediately resurrected and would actively run things from the other side of the veil.

Of course, Rutherford, and the two directors that stayed with him, felt that it was the four ousted directors who were persecuting them, and when Rutherford replaced those four with persons loyal to him, this became the only way to look at it. Their persecution failed to touch Rutherford though, and Rutherford had won. So except for some legal maneuvering, there was really no persecution on anyone even in 1916 and most of 1917.

But the book that Fisher and Woodworth had written, the Finished Mystery, had gone much further than Russell ever did in speaking out against war and speaking out against the religions that supported war. This got them in trouble in Canada first where religious leaders felt especially "persecuted" by the book, so they got behind some legal maneuvering to get the book banned. With war hysteria high, it was the perfect time to get some action that might not have otherwise been taken against the Bible Students there.

By 1918 the United States Justice Dept with it's Bureau of Investigation was already arresting people and preachers and activists who were speaking out against the draft, and therefore the people behind the Finished Mystery were already in the sights of the government. The book was banned and several brothers all around the United States were arrested and some served jail terms. When the Society itself was investigated, the Society was found to have also been peripherally involved in helping persons try to avoid the draft, but in a way that was careful enough to probably not have resulted in a win against the Society after appeal. But they were arrested for trial and lost the first trial which dealt mostly with the Finished Mystery, but they were not allowed bail during the appeal process so that the directors had to spend several months in Federal Prison while waiting for the appeal.

This was pretty much the entire persecution! It was a very low level of persecution when we consider what kind of religious persecution had been going on in various countries between Catholics and Protestants, "Christians" and Jews, "Christians" and Native Americans, "Christians" and colonial non-Christians, a few other relgiously motivated persecutions around the world.

It also seemed like an extremely low level of persecution when we consider what Satan has been able to accomplish since then among other peoples, where religious differences have provoked war and persecution that ended up killing literally millions.

What it did do that seemed significant was nearly put the Bible Students and the Watchtower Society out of business. But the Watchtower continued to be published during this period. Also after the President of the WTS got out of prison in May 1919, the trial was discontinued because the US prosecution was pretty sure it could not win such a trial outside of wartime. Rutherford immediately started up the campaign for the predictions due in 1925. This campaign was called "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." That campaign kept the Watch Tower Society alive and motivated, although its failure, along with the removal of the unique doctrines of Russell resulted in the decimation of the numbers of Bible Students from 1926 through the end of that decade.

This all interisiting but how come there is not mention about the Germans and Rutherford?

Specially Rutherford brought a lot of the persecution to the society because of his stand with Germans! 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

This all interisiting but how come there is not mention about the Germans and Rutherford?

Specially Rutherford brought a lot of the persecution to the society because of his stand with Germans! 

Uh .... how about because the conversation was about the World War I era ?

Uh ....how about because this is not a 292 page book?

Uh ... how about because your question is so general that it approximates "Why is Planet Earth made of dirt?" ?

 

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

However "no persecution", This seems to be a little to broad of a statement. Did not many brothers join in the war?

Yes, true. I was referring to the fact that there was no wave of persecution, as one might expect if Satan had just been hurled down, having great anger, knowing he had a short period of time. In the days of the apostles and especially by the time of Nero, there were reports of literally thousands of Christians persecuted, even with torture and death. In the next two centuries there were reports of hundreds of thousands of Christians put to death. So I'm comparing what Satan was capable of doing when Christianity was just a "babe" compared to the relatively peaceful opposition to the Watchtower that was reported from 1914 to about 1934. It was as if Satan was not even angry during that time period, or that he did not know he had a short period of time.

Recall that the Society still had only a few thousand members worldwide, and except for some colporteurs and speakers, most Bible Students were relatively inactive when it came to preaching. Most of the Bible Students who were regular readers of the Watchtower understood that Russell suggested never speaking out against the draft/conscription in any country, but that Bible Students could allow themselves to be drafted, and if they couldn't get non-combat alternatives, that they should just shoot over the heads of the enemy (per Watch Tower recommendations given by Russell himself).

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Who were persecuted? the Catholic? the Baptist? ? No, Jehovah's Witnesses were denied the same civil rights afforded other citizens.

This is false. There were many more Catholics and Baptists arrested than the Bible Students. I know of at least one case of a Baptist preacher who was investigated and arrested for exact same stated reasons that the Bible Students were.

The United States did not get into the war until April 1917. The Espionage (Sedition Act) was not passed until June 1917. It was used against HUNDREDS of persons in the United States, and many of those convicted remained in jail for up to 5 years. The dozen or so Bible Students (including the 7 directors) were a very small part of the total. Almost all of the HUNDREDS of OTHER activists, socialists, suspected immigrants, and religious publishers were released within 3 or 4 years on appeal, or on commuted sentences. When the war hysteria was over, almost everyone else got released with treatment very similar to the Watch Tower directors.

Several brothers joined the war, but this did not result in any wave of persecution. There were a few imprisoned brothers in the US, Canada, the UK and a couple of other European countries at the time, but reports of beatings and violence were very relatively rare. Also a few reports of brothers who could not avoid conscription tried to get alternative work, such as hospital work, and were still told to choose either combat or the brig. So this resulted in a couple more short imprisonments at army camps, especially training camps.

(For the United States, the war lasted only about 18 months, from April 1917 to November 1918.)

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

If I push a point, it is that persecution against the Jehovah's Witnesses raged in Canada and the US for many years after WW1, not all at once, but in one locality after another, into the 60's where some were bused to neighboring state lines because of neutrality.

The first rage of persecution against us started in the 1930's, in Germany. In the 1940's that war hysteria hit the United States. There were very close to ZERO reported deaths of Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States, and hundreds in Germany, with thousands incarcerated in the 1940's, many in the worst possible situations, even in concentration camps. Since then, there have been several hot spots off and on where persecution of Witnesses has resulted in violence and death. (Overall, the numbers of deaths have been very small when compared with persecution of other religious groups in this century.)

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The delay before turning to the leadership could be that Satan and his cronies were satisfied with the terror the war was bringing to people everywhere.

Interesting possibility. But you would think there would be much more evidence than just interesting possibilities for why Satan delayed turning to the leadership of the Watch Tower, if Revelation 12 really refers to the time immediately after 1914.

[the Sower of Seed]

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Interesting possibility. But you would think there would be much more evidence than just interesting possibilities for why Satan delayed turning to the leadership of the Watch Tower, if Revelation 12 really refers to the time immediately after 1914.

I'm sorry Satan has not lived up to your expectations. I appreciate your complaining of his weakness.

Yes, the Bible Students were a small group, he could of done much more to smash this group before they grew and built JW.ORG. Such weakness!

He was able to bring pressure to some of them,even in his weakness. I can imagine the terror of you men who carried a Bible, day after day to his neighbors, speaking of a peaceful paradise, now being pressured by family and peers to join the war.

We can also minimize the persecution from church members as witnesses went to their doors doing the expressed will of God as commanded at Mtt.28:19,20

We can minimize the war itself and the "end of the gentile times".

Satan has been weakened from his original powerful condition, where he could be empowered by the light.Now he can only influence the powerful, the intelligent and the unwary with inspiration. He was powerful when Nero ruled, can he still kill?

Now, as I view the world of religion, WHO DO I VIEW AS DOING THE EXPRESSED WILL OF GOD AT MTT.24:14 and MARK 13:10

WHICH RELIGION SHOULD I JOIN? WHO ARE THE TRUE WORSHIPERS OF ALL THE RELIGIONS AND WHY?

THERE IS ONLY ONE, JESUS TAUGHT THEM THEN AND NOW, TO GO 2 BY 2,  DOOR AFTER DOOR UNTIL HE SMASHES SATAN.

WHO ARE THEY?

WHO WILL DELIVER A HAILSTONE MESSAGE?

WHO HAS THE COURAGE TO DELIVER SUCH A MESSAGE? 

ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE DELIVERED GODS MESSAGE UNTIL THAT DAY!

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

I'm sorry Satan has not lived up to your expectations. I appreciate your complaining of his weakness.

You'll notice that I spoke, not of his weakness, but of the strength of Satan to cause persecutions that resulted in millions of deaths through the centuries. Satan and the spirit of the world that he embodies, has been at the heart of centuries of wars and persecutions. You will never see me complaining of his weakness.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

He was able to bring pressure to some of them,even in his weakness. I can imagine the terror of you men who carried a Bible, day after day to his neighbors, speaking of a peaceful paradise, now being pressured by family and peers to join the war.

I won't get into any of the nit-picky anachronisms here, but yes, there was the pressure for young men to join the war. There is the same pressure today in many lands, but pressure to join in doing something wrong is not normally considered persecution. Some might feel pressure to avoid a lot of things the world would want us to join. But this is not the kind of "persecution" I was speaking about.

Rutherford himself gave into the "pressure" to speak of the League of Nations as if it were some kind of awesome political expression on earth of what God's kingdom offers from the heavens. Does this mean that Rutherford could claim he was persecuted to do this, and that's what pressured him to say pretty much the same thing that the World Council of Churches was saying?

The point I was trying to make is that, from 1914 to 1917, we are still talking about Russell's version of what preaching meant, not Rutherford's later versions. Rutherford, even up until 1919, had added only a couple of new elements to the Bible Students by that point in time: a much (better) stronger view against participation in war, stronger involvement in wordly politics, and a book called the "Finished Mystery" which was literally full of ludicrous "apostate" explanations of prophecy and false predictions which we would be embarrassed to read today. Probably the best pages in the whole book were the pages that Rutherford offered to rip out of every copy in 1918 so that the book could still be sold.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

We can also minimize the persecution from church members as witnesses went to their doors doing the expressed will of God as commanded at Mtt.28:19,20

It was already minimal from 1914 to 1934, but even if we maximized it, it still pales in comparison to the Biblical imagery of Revelation 12. Give it a quick look again as a reminder:

(Revelation 12:3-17) Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child. . . .  And the woman fled into the wilderness, . . . And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. ⁹ So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. . . .  the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! ¹¹ And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. . . . Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”  Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. . . . ¹⁵ And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. ¹⁶ But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. ¹⁷ So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.

Now, I'm sure that a lot of religious groups have seen this as being fulfilled upon themselves through the centuries. No harm done. That's just the way we egocentric humans have always been. And many of them had situations where they actually faced literal death. But in our case we say it was some legal maneuverings that resulted in the 9-month removal of 7 or 8 replaceable men of a specific organization that had already spent all its money on the Photo-Drama with the expectation that, after October 1914, no money would be needed for further preaching by any of them in 1915. The false expectations for 1914 had already resulted in the loss of many adherents. The autocratic nature of Rutherford, and the worldly, political infighting within the Society (over how it should be controlled in the wake of Russell's death) resulted in the loss of many more. The book, "Finished Mystery" caused a further controversy that resulted in the loss of even more Bible Students. The core adherents to the Watch Tower Society were fewer and fewer, even before the war had much impact. Rutherford began touting false expectations for 1918 and then 1925, and by the end of that decade, he had dropped pyramidology, the explanation for the End of the Gentile Times, and most of the the Russell/Barbour chronology.

Rutherford's actions from 1914 to 1931 resulted in the loss of MOST of the Bible Students. (For mostly good reasons, however.) Satan's actions during the same period were nothing like what Revelation 12 would have led Bible Students to expect. And yet we know that Satan is not weak. Look at WWII, and the holocaust, for example. Where was this "war with the remaining ones of her offspring"? Where was this rage against the woman between 1914 and 1934? You have already guessed that maybe Satan diverted his attention to the overall long-term terrible effects of the war for a few years. That's possible. But reading Revelation 12 doesn't fit the idea of making excuses for Satan.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

We can minimize the war itself and the "end of the gentile times".

Nothing to minimize about the war itself. It really was terrible and really was a change to an era. Of course, we already have minimized the "end of the gentile times." Rutherford completely changed its meaning by about 1931. It no longer meant the complete dissolving of all non-Jewish institutions over a course of a few months starting in October 1914, while natural, physical Jews in Jerusalem (Palestine) simultaneously proved themselves (starting in 1914) to be the only government that had Jehovah's backing and blessing.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Satan has been weakened from his original powerful condition, where he could be empowered by the light.Now he can only influence the powerful, the intelligent and the unwary with inspiration. He was powerful when Nero ruled, can he still kill?

Again, we are forced to guess why he acted less like the Biblical Satan at the very time he was supposedly more angry, and had dragged a third of the stars of heaven down with him. Perhaps you are saying that Satan is less powerful after 1915 than he was in 1913? Or did this change in his power happen sometime closer to the time of Nero? (37 CE to 68 CE.)

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Now, as I view the world of religion, WHO DO I VIEW AS DOING THE EXPRESSED WILL OF GOD AT MTT.24:14 and MARK 13:10

I would say that Jehovah's Witnesses are doing this. Sounds like you might agree.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

THERE IS ONLY ONE, JESUS TAUGHT THEM THEN AND NOW, TO GO 2 BY 2,  DOOR AFTER DOOR UNTIL HE SMASHES SATAN.

Just to be a little more careful here, when Jesus taught them to go 2 by 2, he clearly told them NOT to go "door after door."

(Luke 10:1-7) . . .After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go.. . .  Do not keep transferring from house to house.

The method was announcing themselves in public and then only going to persons' houses where they were invited.

But our current method of going from house to house has worked well, too. I have nothing against it, and have used it to excellent advantage in starting studies and making disciples.

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

WHO WILL DELIVER A HAILSTONE MESSAGE?

WHO HAS THE COURAGE TO DELIVER SUCH A MESSAGE? 

Just one person's opinion here, but If we were to be given a hailstone message to warn others with before the actual end is upon as (as a surprise) then Jesus must have been lying when he said it would come upon ALL of us as a surprise. Jesus said the parousia would be like a flash of lightning that suddenly flashes from one end of the horizon over to the other end. Hardly even a split second should remain to start a hailstone message. Of course, there will always be people who think they know better than Jesus.

[the Sower of Seed]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:22 AM, JW Insider said:

You'll notice that I spoke, not of his weakness, but of the strength of Satan to cause persecutions that resulted in millions of deaths through the centuries. Satan and the spirit of the world that he embodies, has been at the heart of centuries of wars and persecutions. You will never see me complaining of his weakness.

I was being sarcastic! Is there a symbol for that?

Satan and the demons are LESS powerful than they were before the flood. After the flood, they could go back to Heaven and regain strength.

After 1914 they are confined here. What is it that limits their power? Either they are denied some type of light because of a change in the atmosphere from the flood?

2 Peter 2:4 Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness (state of inactivity) to be reserved for judgment.

Or like Superman, there is some kryptonite that suppresses their power (bad light?)

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river.(Satan misleads the masses with a a mighty river of false &  misleading information coupled with traditions built on lies)

Revelation 12 has been fulfilled. 1914 witnessed that fulfillment just as Brother Russell spoke as Christ's Anointed originator of the current congregation under his direction. Great Persecution did break out for the witnesses that will never be reported. (in public, at the doors, at work, in the families, etc....)

We look at the sign of the Last Days to know that Revelation 12 has been fulfilled, as it describes Jesus presence as King of God’s Kingdom in Heaven with the apostles and anointed ones to date. They await the order of judgment from the Almighty Judge at Da.7:26. He will send Earths new king as seen at Da.12:1.

All things are being fulfilled, even in the order spoken by Jesus.

Mtt 24: 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you. (The Misleading began in the 1^st century and is main stream today!  99 percent of Earth’s inhabitants have a belief that separates them from God and His provisions for the future)

vs 7 states  “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.

8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.

10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another.

11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many;

12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.

 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Witnesses Have Done the Work foretold at Mtt.24:14: teaching the correct understanding of God’s Kingdom. That fact and their progress in reaching every land and people are the greatest indicator of which religion has God’s spirit and where we are in the stream of time!

The World changed in 1914 with WW1, after that and down to today, we see an increasing number of diseases bringing infirmities and death, we see the starving children, earthquakes, volcanoes, record flooding in one place after another, fires reducing whole communities to ashes, a number of cat 5 hurricanes along with global warming and the extinction of animals and habitat. Yes, we can look back and see that 1914 was a pivotal year.

The Churches held great power that is tarnished and fading today.They have taught many falsehoods, like the Hell-Fire doctrine & the Trinity that have separated the people from God. Crime, injustice, racism and the vast difference between the rich and poor, diminish the Love for neighbor and fuel the Hate for everyone.

Mtt.24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity

We today see a shifting world power and anger toward individual leaders. Too,we see political networks being formed and the rebirth of the King of the North. 

We see Daniel 2:42 happening and being broadcast worldwide. 

The Divine Court has recessed for 6000 years and will soon resume the Judgment that began at Genesis 3:15. See Daniel 7:26,27

These Evident Bible Truths have been Hailstones since Brother Russell began preaching them.

The Revelation That They Are All True (vs 30) and The Acceptable Time for Joining God’s Servants has Passed will Greatly Increase the Sting of these Hailstones!

 

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

I was being sarcastic! Is there a symbol for that?

You didn't need one. It was clear to me that I was responding to your sarcasm.

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Satan and the demons are LESS powerful than they were before the flood. After the flood, they could go back to Heaven and regain strength.

Interesting idea, but I haven't seen the scriptural evidence for this idea. But I do also see a problem with it.

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

After 1914 they are confined here. What is it that limits their power?

Curious. You might have great ideas, but they strike me as too far off the scriptural foundation I would expect as an explanation. The following might sound like I'm making fun, but I'm quite serious about the problems I have with this theory.

So woe to the earth and sea because he has great anger but at least he has limited power. I assume you believe that Satan had the power to count, at least. This means that he could have counted from 607 BCE and known that the parousia would begin in 1914? He is not very crafty then, because he would have known he would have all full power in January 1912, started the chaos against Christ's brothers, and been able to recharge in February 1912, come back to start WWI, recharge in March, come back to fight against Christ's brothers again, with all those same powers he had used to get hundreds of thousands killed, just like he did in the second century. So he could have had all the necessary damage done well before Jesus would be enthroned in October 1914. And plenty of time to spare, with which to recharge again. Perhaps he didn't have the power to read Revelation chapter 12, so he didn't know he was to be thrown down after the battle. Perhaps he thought he could win the battle?

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

(Satan misleads the masses with a a mighty river of false &  misleading information coupled with traditions built on lies)

I have a little trouble with the physics of bad light, kryptonite-like physics on a spiritual being, but I'm OK with seeing Satan as someone whose spirit manipulates the world and misleads masses with a mighty rive of false and misleading information, traditions, lies, etc.

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 witnessed that fulfillment just as Brother Russell spoke as Christ's Anointed originator of the current congregation under his direction.

Is there a reference to Russell as this Anointed originator there in Revelation? Or is this a guess without a scripture to back it up?

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Great Persecution did break out for the witnesses that will never be reported. (in public, at the doors, at work, in the families, etc....)

OK, so you are saying that this persecution broke out in 1914? 1917? 1919? It sounds like you are only talking about the same kind of treatment that all persons of all religious sects go through when they join a religious sect that is not accepted in the mainstream. You have said that it would have been worse in the Bible Belt, and this might generally be true. It would have been worse when the war broke out and persons were being conscripted in Europe, and by 1917, it would have been worse when there was peer pressure to go to war. Or in some cases I assume that peer pressure might be to NOT go to war, when the Watch Tower had already said it would be OK, even if the "witnesses" (Bible Students) had to join a combat battalion.

The problem with this is that, by all reports, this persecution on the "witnesses" did not result in violence or death. You appear to think that there would be much that was not reported. But the few thousand "witnesses" that this would have affected would be only a minor, tiny number compared to the tens of thousands of persons of other religions with conscientious objectors who were already prepared to go to prison instead of going to war. Their neighbors, workmates, families, etc., might have thought they were mentally diseased, or were concerned that they were apostate, or might have starting shunning them, but surely you don't think that calling someone mentally diseased, or apostate, or shunning them is persecution, do you?

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

We look at the sign of the Last Days to know that Revelation 12 has been fulfilled, as it describes Jesus presence as King of God’s Kingdom in Heaven with the apostles and anointed ones to date.

Yes, I think this is right. Although I can't see it happening in 1914. I see where you get the sign of the last days, based on Satan's anger knowing he has a short period of time, but don't see where Rev 12 describes the apostles and anointed ones to date already there in heaven with Jesus.

I think that most of the rest of your post is pretty much in line with a fairly standard Witness reading of Revelation and Matthew 24, Daniel, Genesis 3:15, etc. I'm OK with most of it, but I personally don't see any reason to insert 1914 here as a pivotal date. It doesn't seem necessary, or even possible, when we consider the more likely meaning of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 and match them up to everything else Jesus and Paul and 1 & 2 Peter said. But that's a different topic, and I don't see it as a problem if this is how you resolve these verses. It's the way I had always resolved it too, and the way a few million other Witnesses resolve it. (Also, I see the war and pestilence as pivotal in the era starting in 1914, but none of the other items you mentioned pivoted around 1914. But these concerns would have almost nothing to do with whether the Bible allows us to use 1914 as a pivotal year.)

I'm taking an interest in what you are saying here, because I am currently trying to look at Revelation 12 myself to see whether it is more likely to mean what we have said all along, with a few contradictions to resolve, or whether it fits a reading that has almost no scriptural difficulties to resolve. If I can resolve the Watchtower contradictions, I will give it the benefit of the doubt. If not, I would hope for a chance to discuss a resolution that fits all of the scriptures with no contradictions. I've given a lot of thought to Genesis through Jude, but haven't resolved that much of Revelation yet.

So please forgive me if I sound a bit cantankerous here while trying to evaluate what you are saying.