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Adam and Eve, what they didn't know...


BroRando
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On 10/3/2021 at 1:05 PM, Arauna said:

Eden was not protected from sin. They both had free choice. 

 

14 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

from those comments,the understanding would be that,

eden was then  not under any form of protection so sin could have occured at anytime ,unless the first pair had passed the simple test

 

9 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

Human sin and imperfection were, of course, preceded by sin and imperfection in the spirit realm,

According to these explanations, no one and nothing, as person and as place, neither in heaven nor on earth, is "protected" from sin.

Certainly, it would be good, for someone to tell us, what that would mean at all: To be protected from sin?

To be protected as perfect individual/place ? .., and to be protected as imperfect individual/place ?  

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So not agreeing with the governing body is a sin worthy of death?

Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it.  Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.  But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free)

Jesus, is the tree of life.  If Satan had his "eyes" on it, it was to bring about his enemy's destruction. (Gen 3:15) The anointed, are also referred to as "trees".  (Matt 7:17,20; John 6:57,58,63;17:2;6:44,45; Rev 2:7; Ps 1:3; Rev 22:2,14)   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The choice was given to Adam and Eve which "tree" to eat from, with the consequences for choosing the lies of Satan, instead of the "tree" of truth in the Word of God.  John

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13 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

den was then  not under any form of protection so sin could have occurred at anytime

We are not protected from sin and neither was Jesus - We obey Jehovah by choice... we are not robots or automatons.  Adam made a choice not to obey Jehovah.  Jesus made a choice in every situation he was in - to obey Jehovah. Through one act of disobedience adam broight sin and though the act of ultimate obedience Jesus gave life. (Romans)

Yes the cherub was anointed for the job to protect Adam.  Anointed means he had Jehovah's approval when he was appointed . He could have given moral and physical protection BUT the choice was still Adam's. The tree of good and bad indicates that Adam had to choose to obey Jehovah's right and wrong (morals)himself.  When Satan grew haughty and wanted the worship for himself he turned against God and abused his position of trust. 

Just like cherubs were often present to protect the nation of Israel - for example when they were rebuilding the temple - I am sure that angels will be there to protect us also in the new system.

In the new system under the "tent" of protection of Jehovah we will also have protection.   Jehovah uses his angels for this important job. They will also be messengers and assist his people as they are doing now with the preaching work.

They are at present 'holding back the winds' of total anarchy and destruction until the anointed are sealed and the great crowd has come out of all mankind. 

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10 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

in the spirit realm,

This is why it is a universal issue - because a spirit son was thinking bad thoughts before he acted upon them and then enticed eve to sin - just like he enticed Jesus - who did not bite.

Jesus came down from the spirit realm and became lower than angels and in this form answered Satan by his actions.  Satan and his demons were condemned by jesus' faithful obedience to his death. He also saved imperfect men from the same fate.

Satan acted like Judas - he had unfaithful thoughts and acted upon them. James 1 : 13 - 15 applied.

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47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

earth, is "protected" from sin.

If Adam and angels were protected from sin we would not have free choice...... free choice means you are not programmed or entirely protected from your own will.  Protection and guidance is two different words.  I am sure the angel who was in the garden of eden was supposed to give guidance and  physical protection from harm but betrayed his commission and the trust in him in the most gross way

 

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13 hours ago, BroRando said:

not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,

This means he had not eaten from it before - and Jehovah now took his opportunity away to eat it. 

After the thousand years the bible indicates that those who pass the final test as perfect people (like Adam and Eve ) will get to eat the tree of life.  What is so hard to understand that.  Unless you read fallacies on other religious websites. I notice you quoted a Muslim website.

Since I know this religions well and its absolute inconsistencies I think you should stay away from those!

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15 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

there must have been alot of trust around then

Adam was perfect - meaning he was perfect to the extent that he could have passed the test.   Jesus was a mere man ( like Adam) and passed the test.  Jehovah had enough trust in him to make the right choice. 

After we have passed the test as perfect people we will have proven that we want to remain faithful to jehvoah and can be locked into a relationship with him by eating the tree of life. 

It was a very simple test that Adam failed to fulfill.  Soon we will face much harder tests as imperfect individuals but jehovah will support those who want to and choose to stay faithful.  We will not be tested beyond what we can bear.

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16 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is why it is a universal issue - because a spirit son was thinking bad thoughts before he acted upon them and then enticed eve to sin - just like he enticed Jesus - who did not bite.

I have often mentioned this to people that do not understand the situation. This period of time that we are living in concerns all in Heaven as well as all on Earth. As you say, it is a universal issue. And the outcome will be once for all time. It will be completely settled and only then will there be 'true peace and security'. 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

If Adam and angels were protected from sin we would not have free choice...... free choice means you are not programmed or entirely protected from your own will.  Protection and guidance is two different words.  I am sure the angel who was in the garden of eden was supposed to give guidance and  physical protection from harm but betrayed his commission and the trust in him in the most gross way

 

In this comment you have introduced a new term; physical protection from harm. This reminds me very much of one statement before court when Richard Ashe says that JW elders provide spiritual protection to members of the congregation, not physical protection (there has been talk of protecting children from CSA)

 

If a delegated guardian angel has abused his position, the question is: Why has no one prevented him from doing so? Why no one came and told Eve and Adam; The snake is lying. And everyone heard it and watched it in the heaven. Where were all the First Princes, cherubims, seraphs and other angels? Did they sleep?

Why didn't anyone react? Neither in a spiritual nor in a literal sense of protection for Adam and Eve? Or, no one in the Heaven want to violate satan' free will? But there was no problem to punish Adam and Eve for their free will? According to JW elder Richard Ashe deposition, if he had been there, he would have sent the elders to provide every "spiritual help" to deliver them from the wrong decision.

Free choice? The explanations offered go in the direction that it could be concluded that it is very likely that free will means the wrong choice. In primitive terms, free will would be equated with the conclusion that a punishment would be obtained for a choice made beyond that choice prescribed by someone else. If there is no choice other than the one determined by law, then we have no reason to talk about free will in matters of such things.
And even when people choose a color of shoes that others do not like, many will succumb to the will of others and choose a color that is more liked by the majority in the group or one who has an influence on the opinion of the group. Why do male JWs have a big problem with, say, a beard? Because their free will is not free, but is under attack by the will of the WTJWorg Administration. What kind of free will/choice do we want to talk about? About what kind of protection is about that people in general and unprotected JW members can count on?

Protection, not general guidance. Because, people need to be "protected" from their wrong free will too. :)  

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ed guardian a

The clip that you placed is about the position after mankind sinned! Yes in modern life we expect authorities to protect us with police etc. 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Why no one came and told Eve and Adam; The snake is lying

The bible says Eve was deceived - Adam was not!  That is why the bible says : though one MAN sin came into the world!  Adam received his instructions directly from God. He could see that god was a god of generosity, there is love in creation , he himself wanted for nothing ..... But he deliberately chose his own way - like Satan. 

Satan and Adam both rebelled against god - like children sometimes do and ruin their lives in front of their parents eyes by abusing drugs etc.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

could be concluded that it is very likely that free will means the wrong choice.

did you not read that Jesus was the equivalent of Adam but chose to obey instead of following his own way/choice. Through one act of disobedience Adam lost everlasting life for humankind and through one act of loyal self-sacrificing love and obedience , Jesus saved humankind

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

did you not read that Jesus was the equivalent of Adam

A perfect mind and a perfect body may have been the features that connect them. However, the experience of the two cannot be compared in any way. Jesus had an experience dating back long before Adam’s existence. Jesus had an experience of what was happening and how the event took place in the Garden of Eden and in heaven with the devil. Thus, it was incomparably easier for Jesus to resist Satan.

How long can an imperfect man starve if a perfect Jesus could starve for 40 days without his mind being clouded? Could Jesus make the same decisions after 60 days of fasting?

In the Desert, it was a kind of outwitting and tricks about words and bluffing about who is who and who can do what. But I think that part of his temptation was easier, to do right. I am of the opinion that the events after the Last Supper could have been a real test for Jesus, which was far more difficult and serious than those in the Desert. 

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