Adam and Eve, what they didn't know...

[Arauna]

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

earth, is "protected" from sin.

If Adam and angels were protected from sin we would not have free choice...... free choice means you are not programmed or entirely protected from your own will.  Protection and guidance is two different words.  I am sure the angel who was in the garden of eden was supposed to give guidance and  physical protection from harm but betrayed his commission and the trust in him in the most gross way

 

[Arauna]

13 hours ago, BroRando said:

not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,

This means he had not eaten from it before - and Jehovah now took his opportunity away to eat it. 

After the thousand years the bible indicates that those who pass the final test as perfect people (like Adam and Eve ) will get to eat the tree of life.  What is so hard to understand that.  Unless you read fallacies on other religious websites. I notice you quoted a Muslim website.

Since I know this religions well and its absolute inconsistencies I think you should stay away from those!

[Arauna]

15 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

there must have been alot of trust around then

Adam was perfect - meaning he was perfect to the extent that he could have passed the test.   Jesus was a mere man ( like Adam) and passed the test.  Jehovah had enough trust in him to make the right choice. 

After we have passed the test as perfect people we will have proven that we want to remain faithful to jehvoah and can be locked into a relationship with him by eating the tree of life. 

It was a very simple test that Adam failed to fulfill.  Soon we will face much harder tests as imperfect individuals but jehovah will support those who want to and choose to stay faithful.  We will not be tested beyond what we can bear.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is why it is a universal issue - because a spirit son was thinking bad thoughts before he acted upon them and then enticed eve to sin - just like he enticed Jesus - who did not bite.

I have often mentioned this to people that do not understand the situation. This period of time that we are living in concerns all in Heaven as well as all on Earth. As you say, it is a universal issue. And the outcome will be once for all time. It will be completely settled and only then will there be 'true peace and security'. 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

If Adam and angels were protected from sin we would not have free choice...... free choice means you are not programmed or entirely protected from your own will.  Protection and guidance is two different words.  I am sure the angel who was in the garden of eden was supposed to give guidance and  physical protection from harm but betrayed his commission and the trust in him in the most gross way

 

In this comment you have introduced a new term; physical protection from harm. This reminds me very much of one statement before court when Richard Ashe says that JW elders provide spiritual protection to members of the congregation, not physical protection (there has been talk of protecting children from CSA)

 

If a delegated guardian angel has abused his position, the question is: Why has no one prevented him from doing so? Why no one came and told Eve and Adam; The snake is lying. And everyone heard it and watched it in the heaven. Where were all the First Princes, cherubims, seraphs and other angels? Did they sleep?

Why didn't anyone react? Neither in a spiritual nor in a literal sense of protection for Adam and Eve? Or, no one in the Heaven want to violate satan' free will? But there was no problem to punish Adam and Eve for their free will? According to JW elder Richard Ashe deposition, if he had been there, he would have sent the elders to provide every "spiritual help" to deliver them from the wrong decision.

Free choice? The explanations offered go in the direction that it could be concluded that it is very likely that free will means the wrong choice. In primitive terms, free will would be equated with the conclusion that a punishment would be obtained for a choice made beyond that choice prescribed by someone else. If there is no choice other than the one determined by law, then we have no reason to talk about free will in matters of such things.
And even when people choose a color of shoes that others do not like, many will succumb to the will of others and choose a color that is more liked by the majority in the group or one who has an influence on the opinion of the group. Why do male JWs have a big problem with, say, a beard? Because their free will is not free, but is under attack by the will of the WTJWorg Administration. What kind of free will/choice do we want to talk about? About what kind of protection is about that people in general and unprotected JW members can count on?

Protection, not general guidance. Because, people need to be "protected" from their wrong free will too.   

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ed guardian a

The clip that you placed is about the position after mankind sinned! Yes in modern life we expect authorities to protect us with police etc. 

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Why no one came and told Eve and Adam; The snake is lying

The bible says Eve was deceived - Adam was not!  That is why the bible says : though one MAN sin came into the world!  Adam received his instructions directly from God. He could see that god was a god of generosity, there is love in creation , he himself wanted for nothing ..... But he deliberately chose his own way - like Satan. 

Satan and Adam both rebelled against god - like children sometimes do and ruin their lives in front of their parents eyes by abusing drugs etc.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

could be concluded that it is very likely that free will means the wrong choice.

did you not read that Jesus was the equivalent of Adam but chose to obey instead of following his own way/choice. Through one act of disobedience Adam lost everlasting life for humankind and through one act of loyal self-sacrificing love and obedience , Jesus saved humankind

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

did you not read that Jesus was the equivalent of Adam

A perfect mind and a perfect body may have been the features that connect them. However, the experience of the two cannot be compared in any way. Jesus had an experience dating back long before Adam’s existence. Jesus had an experience of what was happening and how the event took place in the Garden of Eden and in heaven with the devil. Thus, it was incomparably easier for Jesus to resist Satan.

How long can an imperfect man starve if a perfect Jesus could starve for 40 days without his mind being clouded? Could Jesus make the same decisions after 60 days of fasting?

In the Desert, it was a kind of outwitting and tricks about words and bluffing about who is who and who can do what. But I think that part of his temptation was easier, to do right. I am of the opinion that the events after the Last Supper could have been a real test for Jesus, which was far more difficult and serious than those in the Desert. 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

experience of the two cannot be compared in any way.

But you see it was not about experience - it is about obedience.  Satan had eons of experience and turned against god.  The issue is not experience.  One can have little experience - but if you trust God - you have more experience than any other creature!

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 10/4/2021 at 5:35 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

In primitive terms, free will would be equated with the conclusion that a punishment would be obtained for a choice made beyond that choice prescribed by someone else. If there is no choice other than the one determined by law, then we have no reason to talk about free will in matters of such things.

The free will is whether you chose to obey or disobey. Whether it be obeying God or Man's laws. 

The obvious thing is that every action has a reaction. You may choose to jump off of the top of a high building, but the reaction would be that you would go downward rapidly.  There are laws of many types, gravity is one of them. 

But human 'perfection' relies on the human obeying God's laws in all ways. And we know that both the devil and Adam had the knowledge needed to make their own decisions. The Devil was an Angel and would have been well trained for the job of watching over this Earth and it's humans. Adam had been given direct instruction by God.  The free will was the choice to obey or disobey God. 

We, even as imperfect humans, have the choice of obeying God (to the best of our ability) or deliberately disobeying God.

This is my disagreement with the GB and many JWs. They so say 'dedicate' their lives to obey God through Christ, but can easily be seen to deliberately disobey God.  

[Arauna]

7 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

ut can easily be seen to deliberately disobey God.  

I agree with all you said.... except this last sentence.... It seems you have put yourself as a judge... be careful.... we are not here to judge others.  We cannot say someone did something deliberately unless we can prove it is premeditated..... and even them ----- people think about bad things before they do them without realizing they are really bad. 

David premeditated the murder ....... and yet jehovah frogave him... so be careful how you judge!