Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Dmitar]

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is all wars (every events) in history just one war, because in fact they always “overlap”? So we can talk about earthquakes, diseases, crimes, famines and the like. If we are going to solve everything with the help of the “overlap” offered to us by WTJWorg or others on this forum, then there is no need to point out any year in which things change dramatically and fulfill biblical prophecies.

I would say, friend, it is in the eyes of the beholder how they wish to conduct themselves in life. Some might view history by the frequency and progression a generation might experience. I certainly cannot pretend to think how people experienced 1914 in their lives, and how they took their spiritual knowledge to a level of acceptance. In Noah's day, humanity experienced a catastrophic event. How many events such as that has humanity experienced? There has been wars, famine, disease throughout the existence of man. What is the frequency of those events compared to the ones after 1914. I am sure you would agree that in a short span of time, there has been more wars, famine, disease and natural disasters than all past historical events combined. 

When brother Russell was alive, he viewed anyone calling themselves Christian were worthy of being heard. Does that mean he accepted what was said, not at all. But he respected the fact they called themselves Christians, and they were willing to learn something new, like himself as a student of the bible.

[Space Merchant]

14 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

They never were 'distress pangs'. that was just a false teaching of the Watchtower. 

Funny how now You call it Birth Pangs, the scripture has always called it that. 

It isn't a WT thing, it is a Strong's thing, there is no violation of the Greek language, remember, granted we all have access to BSB, it should be obvious of what the Strong's shows us.

Therefore, the BSB, the ESV, even the NWT is correct, if it was something other than the Strong's itself then you have a case against @BroRandoand or the WT.

BSB have Strong's shown on the bottom for a reason.

 

That being said, birth pains, birth pangs, troubles, distress pangs, sorrows, etc is ok to use in the realm of the Greek text.

5604. ὠδίν (ódin)

[BroRando]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

They never were 'distress pangs'. that was just a false teaching of the Watchtower. 

Funny how now You call it Birth Pangs, the scripture has always called it that. 

Matthew 24:8 

New International Version
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

New Living Translation
But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

English Standard Version
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

Berean Study Bible
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Berean Literal Bible
And all these are the beginning of birth pains.

New American Standard Bible
But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.

NASB 1995
“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

NASB 1977
“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

Christian Standard Bible
All these events are the beginning of labor pains.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All these events are the beginning of birth pains.

12  “During that time Miʹcha·el*a will stand up,* the great princeb who is standing in behalf of your people.* And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape,c everyone who is found written down in the book.d ²  And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.

 

⁴  “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.e Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”

 

Berean Study Bible
“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

There has been wars, famine, disease throughout the existence of man. What is the frequency of those events compared to the ones after 1914. I am sure you would agree that in a short span of time, there has been more wars, famine, disease and natural disasters than all past historical events combined. 

I suppose this could be analyzed from more than one aspect, and then some conclusions drawn.

What the JWs are preaching, and you have now repeated, in relation to the above events is that the number and frequency of events is directly related to the prophecy of Jesus and the year 1914. Although, I don’t think anywhere in Jesus ’words can one hear or see that Jesus said and linked the increase in frequency and number of events to prophecy. Jesus did not say a single word that in the future there would be more wars, more diseases, more famines, and the like, than there were in their time.

In fact, it came to an end in their time (70 CE). So, the number of wars, earthquakes, famines and the like remained, i guess, on average during that time (1st century) which he marked "the end of the system of things" .., for the Jews. The End in which "there is no stone left unturned."

How an earthquake occurs. These are the seismic processes that (God) built into planet Earth during creation, during formation. The decrease or increase in the number of earthquakes should be related to the state of the geological processes of the planets, and not to whether people are evil, and therefore they are reached by the prophecy of earthquakes in which they lose their lives. Earthquakes do not take place because people are evil or because people live in the “last days”.

Wars, on the other hand, can be attributed to human character. Poverty and hunger (on global scale) are also often times associated with the decisions of the people who run the states. Because not all people in the world are starving. If everyone in the world were starving, would that be a fulfillment of prophecy? Or is the fulfillment of the prophecy a periodic starvation in certain parts of the world? Is the poverty of some parts of human society the fulfillment of prophecy? What is poverty? Is it when you have less than $ 500 a month, or less than $ 2500 a month?

According to Rutherford, the "time of the end" is a period of time when millions will not die, but will live forever. What a delightful sensation he caused in most of his listeners, and how at the same time he uttered the greatest nonsense. And all those people died, and we're talking about them now.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

23 hours ago, BroRando said:

12  “During that time Miʹcha·el*a will stand up,* the great princeb who is standing in behalf of your people.* And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape,c everyone who is found written down in the book.d ²  And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.

 

⁴  “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.e Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”

 

Berean Study Bible
“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

I repeat FUNNY HOW YOU NOW CALL THEM BIRTH PANGS 

[Dmitar]

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What the JWs are preaching, and you have now repeated, in relation to the above events is that the number and frequency of events is directly related to the prophecy of Jesus and the year 1914. Although, I don’t think anywhere in Jesus ’words can one hear or see that Jesus said and linked the increase in frequency and number of events to prophecy. Jesus did not say a single word that in the future there would be more wars, more diseases, more famines, and the like, than there were in their time.

Friend, I think you can see the parallel in Jesus words he personally spoke of that is recorded in the bible. Perhaps you are thinking of 1914. A specific date not entered in scripture, like 70 CE. Yet through history, we know of an event that happened in 70 CE that is in direct correlation and in harmony with scripture. 

Those who did accept certain warnings in 33 CE were caught off from the Roman destruction. The same can be said in the impending last days Jesus spoke of for a future and last prophecy of the ages.

If we look at Jesus words, and if you wish to subject them as overlapping, then you will find many examples of overlapping generation in scripture. A simple one would be, The generation that had to wait until all that generation that sinned against Jehovah had died out. Which bible base conclusion is that from?

The bible gives us, by faith, there will be a last judgment of humanity. We just need to see the evidence scripture provides us. 1 Corinthians 4:5, Jude 1:7, Luke 18:8, Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Peter 3:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Revelation 1:1-7, etc. This is referred to as "collective actions" by humanity. Before, we could hear of some deliverance, but not all at once as it is being witnessed and collected after 1914. Once that can be embedded in our hearts and minds, then the words in Matthew 24:36-44 become a comfort. The collective actions of humanity right now gives us that sequence of events that we are now witnessing. 

Can the faithful turn their backs on that? Definitely not dear friend. While no Christian should force their faith on others, they should be doers, as Jesus once was and is our greatest example of that faith. Brother Russell, welcomed everyone to participate in the study of the bible. 

If you wish to use the term overlapping, then consider how many generations, has been hearing the gospel of Christ since his death, and now many generations after Jesus death has heard the right gospel of Christ. 1 John 2:18

You will get different answers from the same term. However, we can see through scripture, there are many examples of overlapping generations recorded, by the fate of many in the past that is recorded in scripture for our benefit. 

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

Friend, I think you can see the parallel in Jesus words he personally spoke of that is recorded in the bible. Perhaps you are thinking of 1914. A specific date not entered in scripture, like 70 CE. Yet through history, we know of an event that happened in 70 CE that is in direct correlation and in harmony with scripture. 

Those who did accept certain warnings in 33 CE were caught off from the Roman destruction. The same can be said in the impending last days Jesus spoke of for a future and last prophecy of the ages.

If we look at Jesus words, and if you wish to subject them as overlapping, then you will find many examples of overlapping generation in scripture. A simple one would be, The generation that had to wait until all that generation that sinned against Jehovah had died out. Which bible base conclusion is that from?

The bible gives us, by faith, there will be a last judgment of humanity. We just need to see the evidence scripture provides us. 1 Corinthians 4:5, Jude 1:7, Luke 18:8, Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Peter 3:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Revelation 1:1-7, etc. This is referred to as "collective actions" by humanity. Before, we could hear of some deliverance, but not all at once as it is being witnessed and collected after 1914. Once that can be embedded in our hearts and minds, then the words in Matthew 24:36-44 become a comfort. The collective actions of humanity right now gives us that sequence of events that we are now witnessing. 

Can the faithful turn their backs on that? Definitely not dear friend. While no Christian should force their faith on others, they should be doers, as Jesus once was and is our greatest example of that faith. Brother Russell, welcomed everyone to participate in the study of the bible. 

If you wish to use the term overlapping, then consider how many generations, has been hearing the gospel of Christ since his death, and now many generations after Jesus death has heard the right gospel of Christ. 1 John 2:18

You will get different answers from the same term. However, we can see through scripture, there are many examples of overlapping generations recorded, by the fate of many in the past that is recorded in scripture for our benefit. 

At the very beginning of my comment, I have to notice how intensely you have given down votes to a large number of my comments since your name appeared on the forum. Now for the second time you call me a friend and even more, dear friend. I don’t mind either way of communicating. But friend, let me say a few words about what you wrote.

The example from the desert and the example of Jerusalem have one thing in common when it comes to the time period of these events. Both events culminated in a short period, in just a few decades. As for the people in the desert, the report sets the time at 40 years, and as for Jerusalem, from Jesus ’words uttered in 33 CE to 70 CE, 37 years have passed.

Well we see, when WTJWorg today, draws parallels and interpretations then it has obviously lost sight of the fact that the representative/s of each generation from both examples was/were at the beginning and end of the one and same event. There is no so called "overlap" in WTJWorg sense of meaning. Today’s doctrine of the “overlapping generation” that JWs preach, to themselves for the most part, has gone completely beyond the time frame of the biblical examples you cited. 

Why I emphasized the word today. Because WTJWorg has in the past announced Armageddon within a small number of years (one or two, three decades). Today, with the "overlapping generation", they are trying to get out of his own theology, which they imposed so strongly in the past. But again, they limited themselves in time frame, as it is hard for them to admit that Armageddon may not come for the next 50-100 years either. If they talked about it publicly in that way, they would be left without most of the membership, which is now in the organization. Well, they again limited themselves in time to two overlapping generations. Fortunately for them, the term they invented will give future WTJWorg theologians the opportunity to juggle terminology and a new interpretation for future generations of JW members.

The behavior of humanity does not encourage people to look to the future with hope, we agree. But how far can that go? If God wants to save the innocent and from destroying the planet earth, he does not have to wait for the future. It could have done this many times already in the 20th century.., and not just because of the destruction of the planet. Well, do JWs think God will be motivated by a desire to save planet Earth to start Armageddon? Shouldn't his motive be primarily due to the destruction of human lives that have suffered from powerful people and villains from the ancient past to the present?

 

[Pudgy]

Remember this, Jehovah God foretold and had a Prophet  declare the news that Nineveh the Great City  would be destroyed.

Then, for reasons of his own, he changed his mind.

[Dmitar]

16 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The example from the desert and the example of Jerusalem have one thing in common when it comes to the time period of these events. Both events culminated in a short period, in just a few decades. As for the people in the desert, the report sets the time at 40 years, and as for Jerusalem, from Jesus ’words uttered in 33 CE to 70 CE, 37 years have passed.

Indeed, friend. There are many examples where we can draw an encouraging parallel. We can see, when Noah was commissioned to build the ark, it was well over 37 years before judgment came to humanity. When Jehovah was angered by Israel in Numbers 32:13 of which I commented on, it took 40 years for a generation to undo what their fathers had done.

When we see an overlapping generation, it is meant to be seen as instructional for the next generation to follow. All generations are linked by that inspirational claim to faith, just as it was with the prophets. 

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The behavior of humanity does not encourage people to look to the future with hope, we agree. But how far can that go? If God wants to save the innocent and from destroying the planet earth, he does not have to wait for the future. It could have done this many times already in the 20th century.., and not just because of the destruction of the planet. Well, do JWs think God will be motivated by a desire to save planet Earth to start Armageddon? Shouldn't his motive be primarily due to the destruction of human lives that have suffered from powerful people and villains from the ancient past to the present?

2 Peter 3:11-13

Are we a superior race, where we can claim to be better than Christ? If the son wasn't given that foresight, then we cannot force Jehovah as ancient Israel did, by their demands. We would not have learned anything as a race. Galatians 6:7

My intention was not to quarrel about faith. Nothing good ever comes out of it. I will continue with the intentions brothers Russell and Rutherford had as students of the bible.

[Witness]

On 10/15/2021 at 10:01 AM, Witness said:

We already know that the anointed saints are surround by a number like the sand of the sea – the massive elder body who have usurped their position as God’s priests, ending their daily sacrifice to God.  (Ezek 44:6-9)

I am in error here and I apologize.  Even though the army (Ezek 38:4,7; Joel 2:1-5;1:4,6; Rev 9: 2,3,7-9,5; 13:11,12,5-7)  that comes against remnant of God’s holy saints in the last days is massive and devastating, that army is not the “sand of the sea”.  This, refers to God’s people - Gen 22:17; Gal 3:26; Hos 1:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10

[Space Merchant]

On 10/17/2021 at 3:21 PM, Pudgy said:

Remember this, Jehovah God foretold and had a Prophet  declare the news that Nineveh the Great City  would be destroyed.

Then, for reasons of his own, he changed his mind.

Well of course, it was a Message in regards to Judgement. More so repentance begot God's mercy which prevented Judgement on the city itself.

[Dmitar]

What would be so astonishing about Brother Rutherford’s book? It cannot be because of the title. The only difference with the title is that brother Rutherford added a term already in use with “will never die”. What was the meaning behind “millions now living” that was obtained before brother Rutherford added a thought that emphasized what earlier preachers were already speaking about. He maintained, scriptural integrity.

 

Brother Rutherford used the term “end of the world” in his book as a scriptural lesson to confirm the words of Christ, 17 times. Yet, in those, he does not imply the end of the world would have been in 1914 or 1925. He refers to the second coming of Christ, just like any other Christian Religion was speaking of at that time.

 

His words for 1914 were,

1920-Millions now living will never die!

This is not due to the fact that the earth is less productive, nor is it due to the fact of man's inability to plant and produce more; hut it is due to the unsettled condition’s resulting from the world war, which conditions Jesus clearly foretold would accompany the war; and it is another evidence that 1914 marked the beginning of the end of the world; for Jesus plainly said, "These are the beginning of sorrows".

 

1855-Bibliotheca_Sacra_and_Theological_Review page 496

Millenarianism.

 They have taken their position, and they must maintain it. They have predicted that" the end of the world is at hand,” and they must prove it. Where the signs of the times cannot be enlisted, as witnesses, they have recourse to exaggeration and bold and startling assertions. In this new Pandora's box which they have opened, no hope for the doomed millions now living lingers at the bottom.

 The elect are already gathered in; the last seal has been broken ; the last trumpet has sounded , and the last vial has been poured out, and the accumulated woes portended by these symbols are now rolling, like billows , over the earth. The end must come, do what we may ; it cannot be delayed . The chariot wheels of the " King of kings " are now moving on the highway to fearful judgments. The wrath of God will burn to the lowest hell. The Gospel has been preached “ as a witness ” and failed to convince the world of sin ; now, it must prove a savor of death unto death to all that live ; still , the ministers of Christ must preach though they know that their labor in the Lord will be in vain , and that their efforts to enlighten their flocks will only enhance their condemnation and misery throughout eternity.

 

1864-The Universalist Quarterly and General Review, page 53

 What becomes of the hundreds of millions who lived before the advent of the Redeemer; of the hundreds of millions now living who devoutly worship false Gods There is but one answer. They must enter the garden of the Lord's house after the death of the body, or they can never enter at all . But are these multitudes responsible for the circumstance that their birth dates anterior to that period when it pleased God to send mankind a Redeemer? are they to be condemned to endless death on the ground that they never knew that Jesus was indeed the Christ, the Son of the living God ? ”

 

1873-The Old Book tested popular queries about the Bible page 160

have we evidence in the experience and in the lives of men, that the work which Christ said he would accomplish has been effected?

As to the experience of salvation from the condemnation and guilt of sin, we have the testimony of millions in the past, and of millions now living, that, believing in Jesus, they have been freely and fully for given . Down through all the ages their testimony has been clear and uniform. Men living in different countries, and in different circumstances, have, as with one voice, declared that we have redemption in the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sins.

 

1889-Social Christianity page 112

 

Those four epistles contain indisputable proof that St. Paul and the early Christians believed that Jesus had risen from the dead . That is all we want the New Testament to prove on this subject. We have then to choose between the universal belief of men who risked and forfeited their lives for their belief, and the à priori assumptions of modern scepticism . And that is not all. The historical evidence for the Resurrection includes the personal testimony of millions of Christians in every century of the Christian era, and of millions now living.